I don't know what to do with my marriage.

I am enlightened by and at least partially agree with everybody, hey, I too avoid confrontation, but have little quibbles here and there with the relative weight of some posts toward indicating dave's problems, or some others on her's. Life is really wild, we are all these people we become through the influence of our parents and school and religion/or not and work, well...through experience and our own behavior and ... our own observation of our own behavior. I think that last is crucial, and that whatever the plusses and minuses of the situation, dave has a good start with his openness. None of us have asked about age, and I like that, it is a little amazing that that hasn't come up.

My comments have tended, at least in the beginning of this thread, to line up with the father's point of view and dave, not knowing us here may assume I am one of the male posters, but no. I was kind of glad to see Phoenix's post, I didn't feel so alone as a female who shared his worry.

I don't think it is such a negative as another recent poster intimated, to have in mind that this might not all work out, even with counseling. But everybody's suggestions of going for it and being open and even losing pride first are good, I agree with them.

I reiterate an earlier point of mine that it is good for the children to be alone with the father, aside from whatever impact that has on the marriage, given of course that the father isn't a detrimental type, abuser, etc.

On the hunting camp, no one here is more loathe to hunting than moi, but as you said it was for an hour, was not a hunting session, but a visit to part of your life, I took it as just a place. But your wife takes it as a symbolic route to Hunting, and possibly dangerous immediately, and I suppose that would raise flags that could be herrings in some kind of legal hearing situation. I too am against pushing them into hunting. But that is a tangent, let me not go there right now.

I agree heartily with Wy. I was never so glad, as an only child, when my mother got a job in one of our many financial crises in my teens. Not just that I got her "off my back", but that her viewpoint widened dramatically. And she actually started to be happy again, reliving in a way the glory days when she was a secretary at Colombia in the 1930's. Only, at the time she got a job as an older woman at a local university in the sixties, she met all sorts of people from all sorts of walks of life, just as I did when I went to school at one when I was 18. Kind of an explosion of widening of interest.

I back up though to say that I think Sozobe, who has articulated carefully a mother's point of view, is a wise mother and can tell she has taken care to be partner with her partner. Really, not to idealize her, I would hold her up as an ideal. She is right there for the growing child, but has a rich mind and a sane one and understands balance.

Which brings me back to the accumulation of information that your wife doesn't really have interests of her own. I am sort of opposite, I have too many interests and need to be tamed. I am close emotionally to my sixteen year old niece, and worry about her, because as bright as she is, she is primarily a social being. My bias is that it is better to have interests, not only for you, Dave, that it would be good for your wife to have interests, but for her, for her own enjoyment, and eventually for the children, that she has interests and can share excitement, and for them, that they might find their own eventual interests.

This is all off the cuff and I will probably rethink what I have
typed out at thought speed.

Dave, I've read this entire thread and am so glad you and your wife are going for counseling. Whatever you've done, your wife is punishing you by using the children and hurting your parents. Your kids have seen their paternal grandparents a few times in 3 years? I've seen this and it is rather evil. In this regard you are being wimpy. Why are you joining her in this meaness. Take your kids to see your parents! Invite them over, this is outrageous.

Generally, parents spend most all their time together with the kids, wherever all of you go. And, like some here have said, mothers take care of babies, that's not unusual. I hope your wife begins some journaling of her life also, for counseling.

I recall a college teacher (philosophy, I think) say that a woman will nag, nag her husband until he decides to be at least some sort of leader. But, the stage is set and this lady is totally out of control as she has nobody to set limits.

Osso, that was very good. I agree, outside interests are at times what can keep marriages intact. But, to be honest, I've noticed that when we women have children all the problems with our own families just exude from us. We become our mothers, our dads. Life is not easy and it's at times insane.

Couldn't agree more, TexStar, re life not easy. I don't blame anyone here.

On Dave's parents, I agree. He did say he didn't tell his wife that they are inclined to have him move away from her. They have taken some arrows in this thread, as have hers (I questioned about the mother), both sets of parents presumably acting reasonably from their points of view.

Besides, they might change on displeasure with her if D and Mrs. D really worked things out, over time.

First, in the spirit of thanksgiving, thanks to Osso for some very kind words.

During dinner, I jumped up and wrote "Blind men and the elephant" on a scrap of paper. As others have said, I am impressed with Dave and his openness and willingness to examine the situation objectively, or as objectively as possible. He has complete control over what information we have about this situation, and has provided an impressive amount with impressive breadth and depth, and that is not always flattering to his position. That's cool.

Even this book that has already been written will necessarily be a tiny tip of the iceberg of their relationship, though. We don't have any way of knowing if all four legs, trunk, tail, and body of this relationship have been presented so far, and we can fairly extrapolate from them.

So I see a whole range of possible "actual" scenarios from what info we do have. (That's how I got on "blind men and the elephant" in the first place, was not liking in retrospect the definitive tone of my last post... can't say, really.)

The info we have fits a scenario where Mrs. D has been doing the best she can to be a good mom in the face of little help from her husband, and is understandably upset when he then forces the issue of taking her young children to a hunting camp, of all places. The info we have also fits a scenario where Dave is a good, upstanding, somewhat passive guy who is just doing what he can to make his wife happy, and is manipulated and controlled to the point where he is not even allowed to take his kids somewhere he feels is safe.

The truth, of course, is probably somewhere in the middle, but more complicatedly, both scenarios can co-exist. This goes back to Osso's point about people behaving reasonably from their own point of view.

I find I am very curious about what Mrs. D says in the counselling sessions, what her point of view is. But don't want Dave to feel he must report back to us. ("What are you doing?" "I'm just taking notes so I can tell people on this website what you have to say... so, after '...and I felt so guilty about that,' what did you say next?" )

Osso, Tex-star, YES! When we kids were young, we wanted nothing more than All-Parents, All The Time! But all of us, Mom and Dad included, needed more than this in the world.

Parents need to be Adults, with their own likes, dislikes, choices. Their children should be a major focus, but not to the exclusion of all else... D and Mrs. D will find that in counseling, I hope, and strike a balance.

I've been following along since the beginning.
It's been interesting to see how differently we all have read the scenario presented by Dave.
My read on it is so far from Sozobe's that her 'somewhere in the middle' wouldn't even make it into the spectrum I have.

I hope Mrs. Dave takes the invitation to participate in counselling seriously, and that they both work at this as best as they can. I hope it all works out well for the children. They're the ones with the most to gain, and lose, here.

My overriding point is that I don't know, btw; not that the "truth" necessarily resides between those poles.

But why must it be a fault to want to keep the peace. I totally understand that it is the big reason I am in this situation, but sometimes I wonder why it should be a problem. Is there no women out there that don't like conflict? Would all women take advantage of a situation like this?

As far as ground rules go, she has also been the one to change ground rules as we go along. I was completely honest with her from the very beginning about the kind of person I was. I almost broke up with her a few months after we started dating because she started to object to my lifestyle. I told her that his is how I am, I like to hunt, fish, watch football, go out with friends, etc. (It was an issue that I wasn't spending enough time with her, not that she disliked what I did.) When I told her I wanted out because it seemed she couldn't handle that, she told me she didn't want to break up, I could do what I wanted, and that she just wanted to be with me. Although I have changed a lot since then (I don't go out with friends, and don't hunt or fish near as much or watch as much football, etc, etc.), I feel to this day that I should have known better. She went to football games with me. She went hunting with me. She went fishing. And she acted like she really, genuinely enjoyed it. I know this is something I will have to overcome during counselling, but I feel this was a classic case of "hook, line and sinker". Meaning, she did what she had to to find a man and get pregnant. Once that happened, she knew she had me by the short hairs. That's when she started to assert herself and I regressed. I wanted to get along because I was stuck. She knew I was stuck and she takes advantage of it. These are just my feelings.

As far as the hunting thing goes, I know not everyone agrees with it and I don't want to make it a side issue in this discussion, but she knew the type of person she was marrying. Not wanting your children to be involved in something like that when she knew darn well it would be something important to me to bond with my children, I think is ridiculous.

Yes to that, Wy.

This was part of what we discussed in counselling the last time. I let her make me feel guilty about doings things outside of the home. She didn't have any other interests or hobbies, but I had all kinds. I would think in my mind that it wasn't fair that I go do things when she stays home all the time. I HOPED she would want to go do something herself just so I wouldn't feel bad when I left. The counseler said I needed to stop letting her make me feel guilty. The counseler said that one is entitled to do things and as long as your being reasonable, especially in your mind, then you shouldn't feel guilty. I have gotten over a lot of that. I still wish she would have other interests, but I don't let it keep me from doing a "reasonable" amount of things I like away from home.

That last post appeared as a nonsequitur, since dave posted before I did.

I guess I have to be quiet for a while (hard for me to not talk, once I am connected to a2k) and just listen.

Perhaps because your children are so young yet, your wife feels that they need her all the time. This will change (hopefully). Your kids will find a life outside the home and your wife will realize that, with them safely occupied in other pursuits, she can do more than clean up their messes and watch them grow.

I'm a single mom; I've been single since before my daughter was born. Her first years were magic and wonderful, and I quite obsessed. However, I had to go to work, so I had to find someone trustworthy to care for her and leave her to that person's care. I lucked out and found a wonderful professional childcare person whose ideas were much like my own.

Still, most of my life was oriented around my girl for years. It wasn't until she started staying overnight at friends' houses and having a life of her own that I began to redevelop my own social life.

Things would have been different if I had had a loving husband to share that early time with me; still, I can't say I wouldn't have been so obsessed with her. Maybe it's just a mom thing. But I still say, you and your wife are the adults, and need to have your own lives, both together as adults and separately, so that your kids can see and learn how to be happy adults too.

My wish is that you and your wife approach the counseling with an open mind, and that you can find a way that helps you to build a strong family together.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Nicely said, Wy.

Man, ya'll are making me pull out the dictionary with all these big words. Don't just listen though, I'm getting a lot from the interaction.

Shucks, Soz, you're the one I look to for insights like this!

I shouldn't be making this sound completely negative. Many of you have touched on the fact that I am trying to be as honest as possible to obtain helpful information. This is true, although I don't doubt there would be things my wife would say that I'm not bringing up here.

Let me focus on some of our positives for a minute. Number 1, we have two beautiful, healthy and smart children. We have a healthy sex life, even in tough times. I have a respectable job that affords us the opportunity for her to stay at home. We have a nice home in a nice area. We enjoy getting out of the house together to go places with the kids, even if it's just to the store. Just to name a few.

Quote from Wy -

My wish is that you and your wife approach the counseling with an open mind, and that you can find a way that helps you to build a strong family together.

That's it.

Well, time for bed again. I'll head to her parents in the morning for T-day, then at some point we will go to my parents house for a few hours. I probably won't have access to a puter until Sunday. See you guys later. Thanks again.

PS Happy T-day; hope it goes well all around.

PPS I highly recommend putting up a ceiling as pre-turkey entertainment. Was kinda amusing to see my dad and Mr. Jespah running around with staple guns and stepladders.

But I digress.

Seriously, I hope it's a good day for all concerned.