The United States is not a Christian Nation

@Dmizer,

LOL, your are definitely a source of amusement Drnaline,
Your attempt at using Freudian Psychology is seriously lacking, but humorous none the less.
I enjoy these discussions because it gives me a chance to teach others about the reality of the church that they subscribe to. I have no hatred or envy or any other motive for informing you about the Catholic church. I will inform you about any other church also if you wish, I study them extensively, not limiting myself to the Catholic church. I will do the same for the Jews and the Muslims, it is all under the heading of religion that was created by man for the purpose of controling man.

Priests are Married to God?
Here's the scoop,
In the first four centuries of the church, the practice of celibacy varied. Some think that mandatory celibacy grew out of a third and fourth century requirement that priests abstain from sex the night before they say Mass.

St. Peter had a mother-in-law and many of the apostles were married. There were seven married popes. There were thirteen popes who were sons of the clergy. There were six popes who fathered children after the Celibacy Law of 1139 (which declared priesthood and marriage incompatible). Alexander VI had two grandsons who eventually became cardinals.

So you see there was no Biblical basis for the celibacy law. The Issues surrounding succession from father to son and power struggles within the church due to nepotism mandated the implementation of the Celibacy law. The idea that any preist could eventually become Pope, and the idea of the priests having sons that could succeed them through nepotism was the cause of too much conflict. Conflict that resulted in the assassinations of more then a few Popes.

As far as standards to which I hold myself to, I am quite comfortable with the notion that the Catholic church, or any religion for that matter, Can not hold up to the scrutiny of fact. Every religion comes from an inspiring story that relies on inspiration to continue to propogate. Thus the Bible is the inspiration directly from god, and the Torah, Quran, so on and so forth. The funny things about facts is that they require no inspiration. Only lies require inspiration. Any fact can be supported by any other fact, were as lies require further inspiration and more lies to cover for the first lie, weaving a tangled web were inspiration is required to be believed.

.....and yes free will is a wonderful thing!

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@Dmizer,

Reagaknight,
Indulgences still occur, they just go by a different name and are much more cleaverly hid.
As far as being educated about the Catholic church, you will have to do more then an internet search to garner your information. Most of what you read on the internet is un-reliable.

"So you're basically a run-of-the-mill lapsed Catholic who never bothered to learn much before formulating his opinions, with all due respect? Praying to the saints is praying for intercession on your behalf in whatever their area is, not saint-worship, by asking God to intercede. Basically, you are asking them to pray for you."

Where in the Bible does it say that this was how Jesus or God his father wanted people to go about worshiping them? So now you need to have your priest tell you how to pray, which you then inturn pray to someone other then God so that they can inercede on your behalf to god, but you have to make sure you pray to the right saint because they specialize in certain areas, and you dont want to get the message mixed up?

"You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
you shall have no other gods before me..........You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God

Either you believe in the Bible or you don't. I think your gods message is pretty clear on this particular point. But Catholics get a special pass right? they can idol worship and pray to everyone whom they deem to be a saint whom will intercede on their behalf, because everyone knows you can't pray directly to god, right? I think you get struck down for that?

As far as the molestations go all you have to do access court documents from any major municipality in America and Europe and see how many priests have been prosecuted for sex crimes against children. Thousands is not an exageration.

Thanks for correcting my spelling it has never been very good. Smile

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@Dmizer,

Quote:

Where in the Bible does it say that this was how Jesus or God his father wanted people to go about worshiping them? So now you need to have your priest tell you how to pray, which you then inturn pray to someone other then God so that they can inercede on your behalf to god, but you have to make sure you pray to the right saint because they specialize in certain areas, and you dont want to get the message mixed up?

Everything about the saints lives shows they had a special connection to God. There is nothing wrong with asking someone to pray for you, which is what prayers to saints are. Information about what the saints are patrons of is quite easily available.

Quote:

they can idol worship and pray to everyone whom they deem to be a saint whom will intercede on their behalf, because everyone knows you can't pray directly to god, right? I think you get struck down for that?

Asking someone, including saints, to pray for you is not 'worshipping them.'

The proccess of deciding who we 'deem to be a saint' is extremely thorough.

Quote:

As far as the molestations go all you have to do access court documents from any major municipality in America and Europe and see how many priests have been prosecuted for sex crimes against children. Thousands is not an exageration

Same with teachers. In proportion to all Catholic priests, though, the number is very small. Anyway, it seems that by now, the priest's guilt is predetermined by everyone involved.

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@Dmizer,

Arguing over who is more righteous is at best an entertaining excersize in rhetorical logic because unless and until God...or Bhudda or Jesus or Goddess or Fred the divine wonder Pony shows up and sets things right your point is moot. The Bible was written in several books and is a collection ...that has been translated and spun by every religion that has claimed to follow it for their own purposes
believe what you believe.....Anyone who can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt there is one right way should be elected King...because I do not think it is possible and challenge anyone here to do it within any reasonably analytical bounds
Oh and about this obsession with the internet accuracy...It just takes common sense anything written by a person is subject to skeptism...Obviously if quote Fred the divine wonder pomy from a site administered by Fred owner Bill the info is questionable. There are millions of books out there that aren't worth the paper they are printed on

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@Dmizer,

rhopper I agree with you, I'll even take your argument further and say why it can't be analytically expressed. First I must make a big assumption. Taking for example that there is a "God", or an infinte knowledge, truth that sustains everthing, what would be its dimensions? Infinte, can you picture infinite? Without limiting it? No you can't, because you would be trying to "contain" an infinte amount in a finite space, impossible. So what do we do to express this limitless "being" first you must observe a few stages of human thought. Before you can express yourself in words you must define and restrict that meaning in a "thinkable" form, subjecting it to material influences ( genetic heritage, education, upbringing, everthing that effects the human psyche), having done that you are ready to define it in words, letters, which are limited by the interpretation gathered from it, how can we even after just these two process believe that it is possible to convey an absolute term ("God") through a non-abolute form(words)? So yes what we posses in the Bible, Torah, Q'uran, ect... might be the word of "God", but I can say that it is not nearly what "God" means by it.

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@Dmizer,

Damn, i gotta agree with both of you. Figures it would be snowing out side, LOL.

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@Dmizer,

When the Christian West falls for good, those who let it crash should perish in the flames. The warriors who fought for it to the bitter end, if still alive, should migrate elsewhere and begin anew, under the protection of Providence and superior firepower. After they've rebuilt Paradise, they should not permit entry to traitors.

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@rhopper3,

Quote:

Arguing over who is more righteous is at best an entertaining excersize in rhetorical logic because unless and until God...or Bhudda or Jesus or Goddess or Fred the divine wonder Pony shows up and sets things right your point is moot. The Bible was written in several books and is a collection ...that has been translated and spun by every religion that has claimed to follow it for their own purposes
believe what you believe.....Anyone who can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt there is one right way should be elected King...because I do not think it is possible and challenge anyone here to do it within any reasonably analytical bounds

Okay, first of all, the Fred the Wonder Pony thing is just a typical reductio ad absurdum argument. Do you people have any tactics that, I don't know, don't rely in any way on degrading your opponents logic as a whole and giving the impression that you're just doing this to humor them because they're being ridiculous? The Bible was made by the Catholic Church, why would they want to distort their own book, from which their beliefs derive? I'm pretty sure it's just Protestants who distorted it. Besides, there are miracles and oother such things to prove God's existence.

P.S. You don't 'elect' monarchs.

And, markx15, you make the mistake of using logic to judge God by. If God exists, which he does, you can't understand him or think about him logically. But anyway, if he were infinitely powerful, he would have the power to limit himself to a finite space. Perhaps he is not a solid, physical being, but is one-dimensional, or something like that.

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@markx15,

markx15;12475 wrote:

rhopper I agree with you, I'll even take your argument further and say why it can't be analytically expressed. First I must make a big assumption. Taking for example that there is a "God", or an infinte knowledge, truth that sustains everthing, what would be its dimensions? Infinte, can you picture infinite? Without limiting it? No you can't, because you would be trying to "contain" an infinte amount in a finite space, impossible. So what do we do to express this limitless "being" first you must observe a few stages of human thought. Before you can express yourself in words you must define and restrict that meaning in a "thinkable" form, subjecting it to material influences ( genetic heritage, education, upbringing, everthing that effects the human psyche), having done that you are ready to define it in words, letters, which are limited by the interpretation gathered from it, how can we even after just these two process believe that it is possible to convey an absolute term ("God") through a non-abolute form(words)? So yes what we posses in the Bible, Torah, Q'uran, ect... might be the word of "God", but I can say that it is not nearly what "God" means by it.

Just because we can't contain God, doesn't mean He can't contain us. Just because we can't conceive of God, doesn't mean He isn't there. Just because we can't understand God, doesn't mean he hasn't provided us with the means to come closer to Him. God can create and use tools we can understand, like words, to provide light for our path. Could it be that is what he has already done?

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@Dmizer,

Quote:

Okay, first of all, the Fred the Wonder Pony thing is just a typical reductio ad absurdum argument. Do you people have any tactics that, I don't know, don't rely in any way on degrading your opponents logic as a whole and giving the impression that you're just doing this to humor them because they're being ridiculous?

Very good point, after i read this it made me think. I think this happens more often then not. I would agree it's not a very good point to start with, but that may be because i am on the recieving end? I'm sure i have been on the offending side as well, gonna have to try and be conscience of that.

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@Dmizer,

I believe that words in themselves have only the power to transform our basic ideas, that we distort the truth that God has provided for every one of us by trying to examine them in a physical sense. The power of Jesus and many other enlightened men and women was never in their capacity to convince, but to transform. Yes volunteer it is also my belief that God uses words to show us the path, but only by taking it do we understand what those words meant.

Quote:

And, markx15, you make the mistake of using logic to judge God by. If God exists, which he does, you can't understand him or think about him logically. But anyway, if he were infinitely powerful, he would have the power to limit himself to a finite space. Perhaps he is not a solid, physical being, but is one-dimensional, or something like that

Very good point, I was contradicting myself, but we can use logic to observe the physical results of Gods message can't we?

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@Drnaline,

Drnaline;12524 wrote:

Very good point, after i read this it made me think. I think this happens more often then not. I would agree it's not a very good point to start with, but that may be because i am on the recieving end? I'm sure i have been on the offending side as well, gonna have to try and be conscience of that.

Oh, sure, but currently it's mostly on the Left. I mean, it's not like there are many conservatives making fun of liberals, but you can't flip through five channels without hearing a Bush joke sometimes. Of course, there's people on the right who use it, like Ann Coulter (that shouldn't be confused with her extremely funny jokes, though).

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@Dmizer,

Quote:

Very good point, I was contradicting myself, but we can use logic to observe the physical results of Gods message can't we?

I suppose, as long as we don't become too bold and attempt to prove or disprove God with it. That's why I'd prefer to avoid it entirely, it's only human nature to come to that level of boldness when debating God. There are many things that must be considered mysteries about God. How could we, humans, use what is essentially a human invention, logic, to objectively talk about God? Logic, as it was invented by humans, is very flawed, so it cannot be used to discuss God, flawless. You have to think in universal and philosophical terms when approaching the subject.

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@Dmizer,

Yes but logic was a term created by Aristoteles, which he sub-divided in two catagories, deducible and inducible (not sure about the translation). "Deducible" logic is when you present a general and observable truth I think the word for it is axiom, then a less general axiom to relate the first with the deductive conclusion, Aristoteles said that being the axioms true then the conclusion is also true. So using deducible logic can't we observe God?

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@Dmizer,

"Any fact can be supported by any other fact, were as lies require further inspiration and more lies to cover for the first lie, weaving a tangled web were inspiration is required to be believed."

"Fact"? Are you referring to scientific fact, primary-source fact, eye-witness fact? Just what kind of 'fact' are you talking about?

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@Dmizer,

I would say that would be the correct form of logic when it comes to appraoching the subject of God, with a few precautions.

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@Dmizer,

Quote:

Could it be that is what he has already done?

Yes I do, but generally people stick to the words as if they were in themselves the truths of the universe. I believe in the power of transformation that words posses, but to "connect" the meaning of these words to an infinte meaning we must observe it at a state of consciousness outside that of reason and words.

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@markx15,

markx15;12602 wrote:

Yes I do, but generally people stick to the words as if they were in themselves the truths of the universe. I believe in the power of transformation that words posses, but to "connect" the meaning of these words to an infinte meaning we must observe it at a state of consciousness outside that of reason and words.

That was convoluted. Either that or it's past my bedtime.

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@Volunteer,

Volunteer;12613 wrote:

That was convoluted. Either that or it's past my bedtime.

Yes, it was past my bedtime, but it is still convoluted. So, how do you achieve that otherworldliness?

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@Dmizer,

"I would say that would be the correct form of logic when it comes to appraoching the subject of God, with a few precautions."

Sounds tenuous. Please tell me more. What the heck is 'the correct form of logic when it comes to approaching the subject of God...."? :FU1:

1 Reply

The United States is not a Christian Nation

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