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The United States is not a Christian Nation

 
 
Dmizer
 
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 08:55 am
The intent of the founding fathers was that these United States remain a Secular entity. They wanted freedom from any religious influence when it came to governing a multi-cultural, multi-religious society.

What I find interesting is that the phrase "seperation between Church and state" originated in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. He was writing to the Danbury Baptist church in Conneticut. His intent in these letters was to explain to the Danbury baptists that the local government (which was under heavy influence by another Christian sect) had no grounds in which to discriminate against them. He was stating that the speration of church and state was a principle that was to protect religious freedom, not limit it.

When dealing with Islam, Jewish, Hindu, Catholic, Baptist or any religion, we must preserve the secular status of our government or we lose our identity as a bastion of freedom and liberty.
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rhopper3
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 10:18 am
@Dmizer,
No argument from me. I'm with ya' on this one.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 09:58 pm
@Dmizer,
How can you have a supposed secular government when about 85% of those people running the government are people of faith? When have we ever had a real secular government in the first place?
Quote:
They wanted freedom from any religious influence when it came to governing a multi-cultural, multi-religious society.

I think they wanted freedom for not from any religious influence.
0 Replies
 
rhopper3
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 10:40 am
@Dmizer,
Influence based on the decisions of individuals is unavoidable but we are not and should not be subject to anyone else religious inclinations and as individuals have a right to expcet the state to butt out of our moral decisions
Dmizer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 11:43 am
@Dmizer,
"When have we ever had a real secular government in the first place?"

The first three administrations of this country were decidely "secular". The issue of religious freedom was a foremost thought on the minds of the constitutional congress. They were of the opinnion that the only truly free society was one free of religious influence in the government. Thomas Jefferson when dealing with the first major crisis of his administration declared that the United States is not a Christian nation but is a secular nation. A point that was backed up by a Congressional referendum reenforcing that ideal. Jefferson was negotiating with the Barbary states of Northern Africa. The Barbary states had been intercepting American vessels and enslaving the American sailors while stealing their ships and cargo. The negotiations turned in our favor after Marines invaded Tripoli and occupied the city. The international appeal of America (for immigrants and the religiously persecuted) has always been one of liberty and freedom. The only way that liberty and freedom can be maintained is to remain a secular government. The religious right of this country fails to understand that.
rhopper3
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 01:12 pm
@Dmizer,
Ture enough. Certain groups in this country and not just the religious right have become obsessed with enforcing their view of morality to the point they are willing to undermine the very thing which has always set us apart...We are a secular nation and by design. I agree absolutely!!!!
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 04:15 pm
@Dmizer,
Partially correct, partially incorrect. Yes, our Founders were powerfully influenced by the Enlightenment, and by John Locke, in particular, one of the Enlightenment's most important forefathers. And yes, Franklin and Jefferson, two of our most high-profile Founders, were deists / atheists. BUT......American culture, from its very, very beginning, was PROFOUNDLY Christian, so much so, that most early Americans considered their society to be a 'new Israel' of sorts (this obsession culminated in, amongst other things, the doctrine of "Manifest Destiny"). More than anything else, early American society was Calvinist, regardless of the many denominations that speckled it. There's no denying that fact. The First and Second Great Awakenings helped just as much as the Revolution itself, to congeal the new nation into a durable, united community. Even today, 85% of Americans identify themselves as Christian. :headbang:
0 Replies
 
Volunteer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 04:34 pm
@rhopper3,
rhopper3;12000 wrote:
Influence based on the decisions of individuals is unavoidable but we are not and should not be subject to anyone else religious inclinations and as individuals have a right to expcet the state to butt out of our moral decisions


You are right. The United States is not a Christian Nation.

Why is murder illegal? Is the reason moral or amoral?
0 Replies
 
Volunteer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 04:37 pm
@Dmizer,
Dmizer;12003 wrote:
"When have we ever had a real secular government in the first place?"

The first three administrations of this country were decidely "secular".


Sounds like an opinion from the religious left.

Websters defines secular:
1 a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b: not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c: not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>
2: not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation <a secular priest>

Definition of secular - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
0 Replies
 
Volunteer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 04:44 pm
@Dmizer,
Dmizer;12003 wrote:
"When have we ever had a real secular government in the first place?"

The international appeal of America (for immigrants and the religiously persecuted) has always been one of liberty and freedom. The only way that liberty and freedom can be maintained is to remain a secular government. The religious right of this country fails to understand that.


Who gave us the liberty and freedom. Why was it sought? What does the declaration state? Please look at the words of the last sentence.

[DOCID:198805tx_xxx-1]
From the Government Manual Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]

The Declaration of Independence

In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one
people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with
another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and
equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle
them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they
should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.--We hold
these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that
they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
.--That to
secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed,--That whenever any
Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of
the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,
laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in
such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and
Happiness. ...
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province,
establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its
Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for
introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:--For taking away
our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering
fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:--For suspending our own
Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate
for us in all cases whatsoever.--He has abdicated Government here, by
declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.--He has
plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed
the lives of our people.--He is at this time transporting large Armies
of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and
tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely
paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of
a civilized nation.--He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken
Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become
the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by
their Hands.--He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has
endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless
Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished
destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. In every stage of these
Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our
repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince,
whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant,
is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. Nor have We been wanting in
attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to
time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable
jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our
emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice
and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common
kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt
our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice
of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the
necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the
rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.--
We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America,
in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the
world
for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by
Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and
declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free
and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to
the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and
the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally disolved; and
that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War,
conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other
Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.--
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection
of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and
our sacred Honor.
Volunteer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 04:49 pm
@Volunteer,
Volunteer;12015 wrote:

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


What is Divine Providence?

In Middle English “Divine Providence” means the foreknowing and beneficent care and government of God; divine direction, control, or guidance ME. Page 1696, The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, Oxford University Press, 1973.

May God bless you with knowledge and discernment.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 10:43 pm
@rhopper3,
rhopper3;12000 wrote:
Influence based on the decisions of individuals is unavoidable but we are not and should not be subject to anyone else religious inclinations and as individuals have a right to expcet the state to butt out of our moral decisions
So i take it when religious holidays come around you work and don't take the paid time off? Do you butt out or take the gimme?
Wonder want Dmizer does for our religous holidays?
rhopper3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 12:19 am
@Dmizer,
I dont work for the government and since I wrtie freelance I dont actually much say stories are assigned when they are assigned but I take them without regret, because they are family holidays as well and cultural holidays and because I never said I have anything against the religion I take the world as it is and make the changes I can as they come up and after a faashion it is my choice and that is the point..if it harms no one do what you want
Holidays are about celebrating family love venting old bile and doing something that is strictly done for the sake of doing it
and that I can get into that. Besides this a capitalist country and my mama did raise any rich kids your damn right I take the days off
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 07:55 am
@Dmizer,
Quote:
my mama did raise any rich kids your damn right I take the days off

I think you meant "didn't"?
So you take the gimme, at least you are honest. I just found it strange that you would say "we are not and should not be subject to anyone else religious inclinations ?
But when you were subject to someone else's religious inclinations through governmental holidays you did the opposite of what you say, you didn't butt out? I would think you would be very opposed to taking off religious holidays, specially when they are given out by our government who i believe is your opinion they should not be able to do that, much less pay you for the pleasure!
I think Dmizer would follow along with your answer as well, it seems some what hipocritical that people would hope i believed the US was not a Christian nation, separation of church and stated, and a few other key terms but in the same token would take something offered to those religious people even though they are not religious and or are against that inclination?
0 Replies
 
Dmizer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 09:14 am
@Dmizer,
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 10:10 am
@Dmizer,
It's inaccurate to say, 'the U.S. is not a Christian country', just as much as it is to say, 'the U.S. is a Christian country'. The 'U.S.', per se, is too big and diverse for either of those statements to be valid. It's more accurate to say the U.S. has a strongly Christian culture, and that much of its public policy is greatly influenced by that culture. It's a fine distinction, but one that should be made, nonetheless.
0 Replies
 
rhopper3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 12:41 pm
@Dmizer,
Okay that is a logical statement and an important distinction. I agree...
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 01:25 pm
@Dmizer,
Quote:
The first three administrations of this country were decidely "secular".


A fact greatly supported by George Washington in his farewell address:

Quote:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men & citizens. The mere Politican, equally with the pious man ought to respect & to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private & public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the Oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure--reason & experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

'Tis substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 10:26 pm
@Dmizer,
Dmizer;12030 wrote:
"I think Dmizer would follow along with your answer as well, it seems some what hypocritical that people would hope i believed the US was not a Christian nation, separation of church and stated, and a few other key terms but in the same token would take something offered to those religious people even though they are not religious and or are against that inclination?"

Thanks for answering your own question for me. However I think that unless you know me personally you are being presumptuous and rash. I think that the whole point of this post has flown right over the heads of some people who have responded. I will try and re-phrase my stance.
While it is true there are innumerable references to God throughout government documents, and while it also may be true that the majority of American citizens have been Judeo-Christian, it does not follow that America was established as, or even was intended to be, a Judeo-Christian national government. Remember that America was originally settled not by religiously tolerant people, but in fact by highly intolerant religious sects who were free to carve out their own religious niches in an unsettled land.
That religious intolerance, and the forcing of one group's religious beliefs on another group, was what the framers of the Constitution were protecting all Americans against. Thomas Jefferson, unquestionably a framer of the Constitution and a Founding Father, was perhaps the champion of Religious Freedom in Revolutionary America. Thomas Jefferson's most persuasive admonition against the mixing of government and religion is in his “Notes on the State of Virginia,” Query XVII.
In his “Autobiography,” Jefferson discusses the removal of the words “Jesus Christ” from the bill establishing religious freedom “in proof that they [the authors] meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination.”
In his “Report to the Commissioners for the University of Virginia,” Thomas Jefferson refers to the “principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an equal footing….”
Thomas Jefferson believed in God. But he also believed in the inevitable corruptibility of religious and political leaders and felt strongly that a corrupt politician who was a religious demagogue would lead the nation to intolerance and ruin. Indeed, the lessons of history that I remember most clearly were that political-religious leaders (priests, kings, emperors, popes, and witch-hunting tribunals) who, by virtue of their holy mandate, represented the Word of God, committed unforgivable abuses. Perhaps our separation of church and state is an unintended, but fortuitous, check-and-balance that keeps the United States from repeating that history.
For America to be safe for all Americans to worship as they choose, it must be safe for any American to worship as he or she chooses. If the rights of a single American are abridged, the rights of every American are endangered. You may want to think of religious leaders as good people, but if they are advocates of injecting (their) religion into the American government, they are enemies of the Constitution, enemies of the state, and enemies of religious freedom.
As for the Holidays that America declares as National holidays, I speculate that the majority of the people who celebrate Easter and Christmas, fail to realize that pagen symbolism and commerical influence has completely morphed the holidays from christian to anything but christian. Easter Bunny? Christmas Tree? Christmas itself is not even celebrated in the same time of year that Christ was born. You speak of Hypocracy, I surmise that hypocracy is best recognized by those who practice it.
Surfice is to say you take the gimme as well?
Quote:
it does not follow that America was established as, or even was intended to be, a Judeo-Christian national government.

Speculative at best.
Quote:
Remember that America was originally settled not by religiously tolerant people, but in fact by highly intolerant religious sects who were free to carve out their own religious niches in an unsettled land.

Those intolerant people were the persecuted, which was also they reason they left.
Quote:
That religious intolerance, and the forcing of one group's religious beliefs on another group, was what the framers of the Constitution were protecting all Americans against.

What does that have to do with someone who is not religious like yourself? You do not believe so how is it forced on you?
Quote:
Thomas Jefferson, unquestionably a framer of the Constitution and a Founding Father, was perhaps the champion of Religious Freedom in Revolutionary America.

Yes a framer but only one of many.
Quote:
“principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an equal footing….”

Do those sects include atheism?
Quote:
Perhaps our separation of church and state is an unintended, but fortuitous, check-and-balance that keeps the United States from repeating that history.

Not fortuitous, more like unconstitutional. Sep of church and state is only in your vocab. It's not in mine or the Constitutions.
Quote:
For America to be safe for all Americans to worship as they choose, it must be safe for any American to worship as he or she chooses.

Not if your Christian. How can you worship as you see fit when you hope to restrict this country's religious majority from expressing itself as it has for the past few hundreds years? Our Constitutions guarantees us the freedom of religion, IMO it does not guarantee you the freedom from religion that IMO you think is a right?
Quote:
If the rights of a single American are abridged, the rights of every American are endangered.

Atheists have been trying and in some case's succeeding in doing just that. Abridging our rights to practice our religion any place in this country, that includes any public property or school, university campuss, Courthouse, monument or anything in between. It's Freedom of religion not freedom from!
Quote:
You may want to think of religious leaders as good people, but if they are advocates of injecting (their) religion into the American government, they are enemies of the Constitution, enemies of the state, and enemies of religious freedom.

Well, according to the Constitution, those religious leaders are Free to inject there religious beliefs as they see fit. We are endowed by our creator or did you miss that at the begining? You call people doing what they are allowed by God and ratified by our Constitution enemies of the Constitution, state and freedom? How A theist of you.
Quote:
As for the Holidays that America declares as National holidays, I speculate that the majority of the people who celebrate Easter and Christmas, fail to realize that pagen symbolism and commerical influence has completely morphed the holidays from christian to anything but christian.

You didn't answer the question. Butt out to take the gimme?
Quote:
Easter Bunny? Christmas Tree? Christmas itself is not even celebrated in the same time of year that Christ was born. You speak of Hypocracy, I surmise that hypocracy is best recognized by those who practice it.

So what do you do when Christmas rolls around every year? Do you celebrate it? How bout the wife and kids? What about your extended family, you ever give in to indulge an old family member? I have yet to talk to any one who has never indulged in one form or another. Are you different? If you have indulged once, would you find that hypocratic, and if so when did you recognize it?
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 10:38 am
@Dmizer,
Only the Puritans of Plymouth Colony came to America to escape religious intolerance in Europe. Jamestown colonists came for a variety of different reasons, and our excellent Spanish forefathers came to conquer, convert and get rich (and....they were Catholic, of course). It's a massive misnomer to argue that America was founded on the basis of religious tolerance. That only pertained to what became New England, and, as others have observed, the Pilgrims / Puritans weren't very tolerant themselves. The Puritans were a minority, anyway.:AR15firing:
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