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THe PC Police Again Shut Down Truth Seaking

 
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:36 pm
Quote:
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- A retired American general has apologized for a remark to the U.S. Senate suggesting that gay Dutch soldiers were partly to blame for the Srebrenica massacre by Serb soldiers in Bosnia, according to the Defense Ministry.

The comment by retired Gen. John Sheehan during testimony opposing a proposal to allow gays to serve openly in the U.S. military caused an uproar in the Netherlands, where discrimination against gays is outlawed, including in the military.

The Defense Ministry released an e-mail Tuesday from Sheehan, a former NATO commander who retired from the military in 1997, to retired Dutch Gen. Henk van den Breemen saying he is sorry for his statements to the Senate Armed Services Committee on March 18.

In the e-mail, Sheehan says the 1995 murder of some 8,000 Muslim men in Bosnia's Srebrenica enclave "was in no way the fault of individual soldiers."
.
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"The reactions and publicity in the Netherlands and United States have clearly put him under so much pressure that he had to retract his words," said Peter Schouten, who set up Pink Army.

"Now that he has expressed regret, the need to start legal proceedings has vanished," he added.


http://ap.stripes.com/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NETHERLANDS_US_MILITARY_GAYS?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Quote:

"That led to a force that was ill-equipped to go to war. The case in point that I'm referring to is when the Dutch were required to defend Srebrenica against the Serbs," Sheehan said.

"The battalion was under-strength, poorly led, and the Serbs came into town, handcuffed the soldiers to the telephone poles, marched the Muslims off, and executed them."

Carl Levin, chairman of the U.S. Senate's Armed Services Committee, asked: "Did the Dutch leaders tell you it was because there were gay soldiers there?"

"Yes, they did. They included that as part of the problem," Sheehan said, according to a webcast on the website of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

"That there were gay soldiers?" Levin then asked.

"That the combination was the liberalization of the military, a net effect was basically social engineering."



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/03/19/2010-03-19_dutch_blast_retired_us_general_john_sheehan_for_saying_gay_soldiers_linked_to_sr.html#ixzz0jhpRrqXN


We can now put out of our minds what the Dutch commanders said at the time, and what if any negative effect gays in the force specifically and liberalization of the force in general had to do with the failure of the Dutch Military
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 33,994 • Replies: 912

 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:58 pm
Quote:
Dutch Absolve U.N.Troops in Fall of Srebrenica to Serbs
By William Drozdiak
The Washington Post
THE HAGUE, Netherlands

The Dutch government Monday absolved its U.N. peacekeepers in Bosnia-Herzegovina of any wrongdoing in the fall of Srebrenica to the Bosnian Serbs, which resulted in some of the worst atrocities seen in Europe since World War II. Dutch officials said other nations must share blame for failing to provide enough troops to protect the U.N.-designated "safe area."

Defense Minister Joris Voorhoeve said an intensive three-month investigation showed that the 460 lightly armed Dutch soldiers serving in the Srebrenica enclave in eastern Bosnia last July were overwhelmed by attacking Bosnian Serb forces and thus helpless to prevent the subsequent slaughter of thousands of Muslim men and the forced deportation of 25,000 women, children and elderly

http://tech.mit.edu/V115/N53/dutch.53w.html

Deny. Deny. Deny the truth. The Dutch are good at that. Contradict them and draw their wrath.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
Give me a break the Netherlands military have a lot of problems but pining their lack of performed on their gay members is beyond being silly and is very dishonest of the General.

There are one hell of a lot of first rate military forces where gays serve openly. The one that come to mind first is the UK world class forces.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:06 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
were overwhelmed by attacking Bosnian Serb forces
They sat back and watched without a fight. The massacre may not have taken place if they had of stood up to the serbs who may have worried about the politics of killing UN soldiers.

Quote:
thus helpless to prevent the subsequent slaughter
They wre armed and trained soldiers who could have bought time for reinforcements and civilian withdrawal.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:07 pm
@BillRM,
When you have served in the military you may understand something about group cohesion....and it doesnt involve forming a daisy chain in the showers.
BillRM
 
  3  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:11 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
When you have served in the military you may understand something about group cohesion....and it doesnt involve forming a daisy chain in the showers.


So you think that a UK force do not do well in combat because of it openly gay members?

If I remember correctly they had been the only Western force that had always been willing to support us on the battlefield and is doing so now as a matter of fact.

Strange that I had not hear any complains about them taking too long in the showers or painting their nails.

How silly and dishonest do you need to be?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:14 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
How silly and dishonest do you need to be?
Quite a lot to catch up to you.

What do you understand to be the main principles of combat ? The ones you see as not being damaged by sexual relations within a unit ?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:15 pm
@BillRM,
I doubt any of this has to do with numbers of gays in the dutch armed forces, as I presume we have the same percentage, cloaked in not telling. The assumption that gays are less battle ready is only a construct, as far as I can tell. Perhaps they are usually more thoughtful, but I have no data on that.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:17 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Give me a break the Netherlands military have a lot of problems but pining their lack of performed on their gay members is beyond being silly and is very dishonest of the General.


Our General was saying that the Dutch officers told him off the record that the gays were a significant contributing factor. It is not our guy who made the evaluation.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:21 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
I doubt any of this has to do with numbers of gays in the dutch armed forces, as I presume we have the same percentage, cloaked in not telling. The assumption that gays are less battle ready is only a construct, as far as I can tell. Perhaps they are usually more thoughtful, but I have no data on that.
the allegation is that the force failed in part because energy and time that should have gone into warrior training went instead into social reform of the force. Certainly has plausibility.

Too bad we will never know, because taboo does not allow us to ask the question and does not allow those who know the answers to speak.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:27 pm
@Ionus,
You do live in the modern age correct where American women had also been going into harm way along with men more and more.

That major outstanding militaries had have mixed units of men and women from the WW2 days.

Sorry, but heterosexual and homosexual sexual tensions inside combat units is here to stay and that fact did not seem to interfere with the USSR driving the Germany Army back to Berlin.

But then when had facts interfere with a bigot outlook on life.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:32 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
that the Dutch officers told him off the record that the gays were a significant contributing factor. It is not our guy who made the evaluation.


You mean the same Dutch officers who was looking for some reason other then their own lacks of abilities in leading their men?

The same kind of comment that such men might had make in WW2 concerning black units being the reason why some operation or other did not work out?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:34 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
They sat back and watched without a fight. The massacre may not have taken place if they had of stood up to the serbs who may have worried about the politics of killing UN soldiers


it was a spectacular complete failure of a military force to attempt a mission. They may as well have been a circus troop. A lot of people died horrible deaths as a direct result of their failure. My wife had the thrill of doing some of the interrogations after the fact, reports put together by US Intelligence are classified I am sure.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:36 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
You mean the same Dutch officers who was looking for some reason other then their own lacks of abilities in leading their men
could be, it would have been nice to get to the bottom of the truth, those of us without top secret security clearances.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:45 pm
@BillRM,
You were replying to me and quoted something I never said. Perhaps you would like to correct that ?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Too bad we will never know, because taboo does not allow us to ask the question and does not allow those who know the answers to speak.


Taboo my ass I can think of any numbers of known reasons other then there being open gays members for the lack of preformed in that military.

Open drug used come to mind, poor training at all levels come to mind, the fact that the soldiers belong to a union of all things come to mind........

But Bigots love to zero into the gay question even if very very successful world class militaries have open gay solders in them for some time and had fought shoulder to shoulder with American troops and more then hold up their end on the battlefield.

When a UK General claims that having gay soldiers under his command is a problem I will then give some credit to his opinion but not to officers of Netherlands looking to cover their rear ends and not from their soldiers either.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:54 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
that fact did not seem to interfere with the USSR driving the Germany Army back to Berlin.
It certainly didnt interfere with far greater casualties by the Russians. How many extra casualties do you want to prove your political outlook is wrong ?

Quote:
But then when had facts interfere with a bigot outlook on life.
I wouldnt have said your outlook was bigotted, but rather a foolish everything is equal all we have to do is sing Goombayah type of stupidity. No, on second thought, by definition your outlook is bigotted.

Quote:
heterosexual and homosexual sexual tensions inside combat units is here to stay
You say this with complete disregard for the lives it will cost. Your lack of understanding as to what it will do almost overtakes your your lack of understanding in general. You can no longer be the first life lost, but I hope your life is lost due to a lack of group identity.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:55 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
When a UK General claims that having gay soldiers under his command is a problem I will then give some credit to his opinion but not to officers of Netherlands looking to cover their rear ends and not from their soldiers either.


the UK military is not currently much used. Weakness in a force sometimes can not be seen until that force is tested. In Srebrenica the force in place failed the test, and then 8,000 souls were massacred.

However, after Bosnia the major place the Brits have been was holding Basra Iraq for several years. Their work left a lot to be desired.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 08:20 pm
Quote:
The fall of the enclave is a sensitive issue here. It has been thoroughly studied, by the military as well as by civilian commissions. One such study brought about the fall of then Prime Minister Wim Kok's government.

The fact that such a massacre could take place in an area under the responsibility of Dutch soldiers has had lasting effects on Dutch military and civilian policy, and will always remain a open wound in the Dutch national psyche.

Yet among all the introspection and adjustments made in the wake of Srebrenica, the issue of homosexuality never came up.
http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/gay-army-a-non-issue-holland-0

that is how taboo's work. If it had not been such the issue would have been raised, and part of the examination of the failure would have been to rule out the possible contributing factor.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 08:32 pm
An allegation about historical fact becomes a "slur" only if the subject is taboo, otherwise the claim gets an examinination...from the Dutch:
Quote:
Anger over US general's gay Dutch army slur
Friday 19 March 2010

A US general's assertion that the massacre of Serb Muslims in Srebrenica in 1995 was partly due to gay soldiers in the Dutch military has caused a storm of protest in the Netherlands.

Former US army general John Sheehan made the allegations during a senate hearing into plans to allow openly gay men and women to serve in the US armed forces.

The comments are 'scandalous', 'outrageous' and as 'low as you can go', prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende was quoted as saying after the weekly cabinet meeting.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/03/anger_over_us_generals_gay_dut.php
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