John Allen Muhammed Executed in VA at 9:22 pm

@realjohnboy,

realjohnboy wrote:

No about the white van. Eye-witness accounts, while well intended, are notorious for being pretty inaccurate. I think as a the drama unfolded the white van was an accidental red herring.

Yep, they told people it was a possibility, so stay alert if you see one, and see one they did!

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Wasn't talking to you, didn't ask your opinion.

Yeah, but your crude and rude response was offensive to anyone who saw it. You merited what I wrote - which, unlike your rebuke, didn't involve any of the aggressive, offensive language you stooped to..

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@georgeob1,

I wrote to him the sort of response I got from him recently.

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Boy I've seen plenty of argument that the stats that show murder spiked during the Death Penalty moratorium were inconclusive... but I've never before seen someone claim they could prove statistically that the death penalty doesn't act as deterrent. I triple dog dare you to try to actually do that.

What sort of evidence would convince you that the death penalty has no deterrent effect?

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

My argument is that this individual, Muhammad, deliberately inflicted death and great pain on many people, apparently with no empathy for them, and, thus, he deserves to die.

That's rather like saying "we should rape rapists" or "we should steal stuff from thieves." Are you seriously suggesting that the rationale for the death penalty should be grounded in the lex talionis? Or is this just another esthetic judgment on your part?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
My argument is that this individual, Muhammad,
deliberately inflicted death and great pain on many people,
apparently with no empathy for them, and, thus, he deserves to die.

That's rather like saying "we should rape rapists" or "we should steal stuff from thieves."
Are you seriously suggesting that the rationale for the death penalty should be grounded in
the lex talionis? Or is this just another esthetic judgment on your part?

Brandon is right that one of the 2 main reasons
for government having been brought into existence
was to facilitate vengeance; (the other being to repel alien raids or invasions).
He is right, as a matter of principle.

If government STOPPED avenging the citizens,
it woud thereby default on the social contract,
losing legitimacy; morally, the right to get even woud revert.

David

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@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

Name calling is the lowest form of debate.

Your point is well taken, as to name calling being low,
but name calling is NOT a form of debate.
Its just emoting.

David

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
A judge is just another human being, whose opinion may or may not be any more accurate than your own. This is aptly demonstrated in every single successful appeal.

By that logic an expert in the field when offering an opinion on a subject in his field is no more worth trusting of his judgement than the bum on skid row. Oh wait, you are the idiot who thinks that only you are trustworthy to find the truth....never mind.
You demonstrate your ignorance more with every post. A successful appeal means a Judge made a mistake.

You further demonstrate your ignorance with your blathering about "experts". For $150 and hour, you can get an "expert" to testify on either side of just about anything. Start getting upwards of $500 an hour, and you can get an "expert" with a 25 page Curriculum Vitae to deliver convincing testimony that black is indeed white. In unscrupulous sales circles, they call these guys "singers." Frankly, experts in many instances are part of the equation of Justice being for sale. The State has an endless supply who’ll happily have their testimony steered. Defendant’s, on the other hand, are limited by the depths of their wallets as to how convincing of expert they can hire.

Qualified fact finders, by contrast, require virtually no qualifications at all and these are the people entrusted with the duty to sort out justice... bums on skid row included... for good reason.

I agree with Bill, tho I doubt
that u can get much of an "expert" for $150 an hour.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

I agree with Bill, tho I doubt
that u can get much of an "expert" for $150 an hour

If justice is in your opinion being that poorly administered I sincerely hope that you have put some time into working for reform.

I am not buying any of it, judges are like refs who blow one call a game and all anyone can think about is the one call that they got wrong, not the 281 that we believe that they got right.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Boy I've seen plenty of argument that the stats that show murder spiked during the Death Penalty moratorium were inconclusive... but I've never before seen someone claim they could prove statistically that the death penalty doesn't act as deterrent. I triple dog dare you to try to actually do that.

What sort of evidence would convince you that the death penalty has no deterrent effect?

That would be a tall order, Joe. I got a speeding ticket yesterday. Today I drove slower. Surprised, with my recent about face, that this is what you'd comment on.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

I agree with Bill, tho I doubt
that u can get much of an "expert" for $150 an hour.

Nope... not much of an "expert", but that's what the State Public Defender's office pays... and they have a deep database of experts of most every stripe. The $40 to $70 an hour they pay attorney's won't usually get you one that stacks up well against their more expensive peers either. Wink

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@hawkeye10,

David wrote:

I agree with Bill, tho I doubt
that u can get much of an "expert" for $150 an hour

Hawkeye wrote:

If justice is in your opinion being that poorly administered
I sincerely hope that you have put some time into working for reform.

Your remark fails to recognize that there are many definitions of justice.
A lot of wars have been fought over differing opinions of what is "just".
What we do in litigation, is administer the law; the jury,
or the court, in a bench trial, decides what happened
(we call that fact finding) and then the court is supposed to dispassionately
apply the law to that pattern of facts. To the result of that process
is applied the label of "justice".

So far as I remember, I have not put in time working for "reform".
Remember: YOU r a socialist; I am an ANTI-socialist.
I am an Individualist, libertarian, hedonist.
It surprizes me that we have not yet disagreed to a greater extent than we have.
I support and encourage greed (tho not stinginess) among my fellow citizens.
Presumably, u do the opposite.

Hawkeye wrote:

I am not buying any of it, judges are like refs who blow one call a game
and all anyone can think about is the one call that they got wrong,
not the 281 that we believe that they got right.

I agree that judges are referees.
Nothing that I said is in disparagement of the judiciary,
tho I have long condemned judges for other reasons
(e.g., judicial legislation from the bench).

P.S.: I have no idea what u have in mind, defining "reform"; probably something collectivistic.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

David, you will be comforted I am sure with your disagreement with me here
http://able2know.org/topic/138239-1#post-3812937

1 Reply

There is an execution somewhere in the States every ten days. The death penalty doesn't appear to be a deterrent. Life on the street is far more dangerous than the government system ever will be.
Perhaps if the government solved the root problems you wouldn't have as many criminal activities. Your system executes children or puts them away for life. The American jail system is the largest in the world and it's growing exponentially. There is so much money put into incarceration at the expense of education, healthcare, mental health and strong community endeavors. An ounce of prevention...

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@Ceili,

Prevention! No, we don't do that here, either in Medicine nor in addressing crime. Must have more procedures so that the doctors and medical supply companies get enough money, and more criminals to support the job creation needs of the criminal justice system.

It is all bankrupting the nation, but what the hell, you gotta take the bad with the good....ya know!

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@Ceili,

Crime rates had been going down for the last 20 years or so in the US even if you would not know it by listening to the news channels

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Lot of numbers on this web page that might be interesting to read.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm

Homicide rates recently declined to levels last seen in the late 1960's
The homicide rate nearly doubled from the mid 1960's to the late 1970's.

In 1980, it peaked at 10.2 per 100,000 population and subsequently fell off to 7.9 per 100,000 in 1984.

It rose again in the late 1980's and early 1990's to another peak in 1991 of 9.8 per 100,000.

From 1992 to 2000, the rate declined sharply. Since then, the rate has been stable.
To view data, click on the chart.

The demographic characteristics of homicide victims and offenders differ from the general population
Based on data for the years 1976-2005 -
Blacks are disproportionately represented as both homicide victims and offenders. The victimization rates for blacks were 6 times higher than those for whites. The offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher the rates for whites.

Males represent 77% of homicide victims and nearly 90% of offenders. The victimization rates for males were 3 times higher than the rates for females. The offending rates for males were 8 times higher than the rates for females.

Approximately one-third of murder victims and almost half the offenders are under the age of 25. For both victims and offenders, the rate per 100,000 peaks in the 18-24 year-old age group.
Victims and Offenders by Demographic Group, 1976-2005 Percent of - Rate per 100,000
population
Victims Offenders Population Victims Offenders
Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 7.8 8.7
Age
Under 14 4.8% .5% 20.5% 1.8 .2
14-17 5.0% 10.4% 6.1% 6.4 14.9
18-24 23.9% 36.6% 10.8% 17.0 29.3
25-34 28.8% 28.4% 15.7% 14.2 15.8
35-49 22.8% 17.3% 20.5% 8.6 7.3
50-64 9.3% 5.1% 14.2% 5.1 3.1
65+ 5.3% 1.7% 12.3% 3.4 1.2
Gender
Male 76.5% 88.8% 48.8% 12.3 15.8
Female 23.5% 11.2% 51.2% 3.6 1.9
Race
White 50.9% 45.8% 83.7% 4.7 4.8
Black 46.9% 52.2% 12.3% 29.6 36.9
Other 2.1% 2.0% 4.0% 4.1 4.4

Source: FBI, Supplementary Homicide Reports, 1976-2005.
See also Additional Information about the Data.

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@BillRM,

or the incarceration rates, never mind the executions....

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

There is an execution somewhere in the States every ten days.

That seems counter-intuitive in that thay get a lot of press coverage.
I have not noticed that many, tho it may well be that out of over 300,000,000 population
that rate shud be no surprize.

Ceili wrote:

The death penalty doesn't appear to be a deterrent.

Ceili, u have my earnest assurance that EVERY murderer
who has been INTERRED has been DETERRED.

Ceili wrote:

Life on the street is far more dangerous than the government system ever will be.
Perhaps if the government solved the root problems
you wouldn't have as many criminal activities.

So far as I know, we have never granted government any authority
to go around solving root problems, except maybe the Dept. of Agriculture.
Just speaking for myself: I don 't want our progeny to degenerate into the Borg.

Ceili wrote:

Your system executes children or puts them away for life.
The American jail system is the largest in the world and it's growing exponentially.

I will respectfully question your math.

Ceili wrote:

There is so much money put into incarceration at the expense of education,
healthcare, mental health and strong community endeavors.
An ounce of prevention...

I advocate prevention by BANISHMENT of violently recidivistic felons,
off of the North American Continent; that shud be cheaper.

David

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Crime rates had been going down for the last 20 years or so in the US
even if you would not know it by listening to the news channels

During that time, since 1987, most of the states rejected gun control,
replacing it with "must issue" Concealed Carry Weapons licenses,
and adopted Castile Doctrine aggressive defense laws.

Accordingly, careers in predatory crime
(especially burglary), became intolerably dangerous for criminals.

David

0 Replies

John Allen Muhammed Executed in VA at 9:22 pm

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