31
   

John Allen Muhammed Executed in VA at 9:22 pm

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 08:40 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
What do we call those countries where the bosses decide upon a result for a trial, and then organize the necessary trial to get to that result.......banana republic, isn't that it??? Maybe bankrupt and/or corrupt nation??

Anyway, I am not thrilled to live in a nation where the bosses are willing to manipulate the law with the express purpose of imposing max retribution upon a fellow citizen. This is not justice, this is barbarism......barbarism were the patina of civility has been applied with just enough thickness so that we can lie to ourselves about how despicable we are and get away with it.

The man had a trial, was convicted, sentenced to death, and executed. Do you think VA did not have a right to prosecute him?

Sure, WA could have tried him, perhaps convicted him, and then sent him back to VA for execution of sentence. Why would they do that? Justice? To appease the family of the victims? Would have been a waste of resources, IMO.

hawkeye10 wrote:
the subject is jurisdiction shopping, not the death penalty.

Bullshit. Your bitch is with the death sentence in general. Your rant about "manipulating the law" and "banana republics" is weird and very irrelevant.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 09:16 am
@farmerman,
Yeah, but this is sort of troubling. How many kids have been executed?
Quote:
Lee Boyd Malvo: Mother tried to break son from grip of influential mentor

Back to the Sniper Page


Friday, October 25, 2002, 01:15 a.m. Pacific

By Seattle Times staff

In December 2001, Uma James called the Bellingham Police Department to complain about a man she said had been harassing her teenage son, Lee Boyd Malvo.

The man, John Muhammad, was spending an inordinate amount of time with the boy, then 16, to the point where she believed she needed the police to enforce her rights as a mother. The man and boy were living together in a local mission, and the man was representing himself as Malvo's father or stepfather.

The police responded to the complaint, which they deemed a custodial dispute, the evening of Dec. 19.

"He was overwhelming the kid," said a federal source familiar with the case. "The mother was trying to protect her son. So she called the police."

Earlier reports that Muhammad was the boy's stepfather were wrong. The federal immigration investigation into the incident turned up "no parental right or claim by this guy."

"In fact, it's not even quite clear how he got involved with this family," the source said. "But, clearly, he did."

James had traveled all the way from Florida to Bellingham to retrieve her son from the influence of Muhammad.

In the course of their investigation, according to the federal source, Bellingham police became suspicious about the woman's status in the U.S. They called Border Patrol agents and determined the mother and son were illegally in the country. Both were taken into custody.

And the investigation into allegations of harassment by Muhammad " now thought to have recruited Malvo for a terrifying sniper spree in and around Washington, D.C., that has left 10 people dead " was dropped.

Malvo, now 17, was arrested with Muhammad early Thursday at a truck stop in Maryland. He's being held as a material witness, and federal investigators speculate that Muhammad may have had an almost Svengali-like influence over the boy.

In January 2002, a month after mother and son were arrested in Bellingham, James posted a $1,500 bond and was released from INS custody. Because her son was a juvenile with no criminal history and not considered a flight risk, he was released without bond into his mother's custody.

Jamaican officials said Malvo was born in Kingston on Feb. 18, 1985, to Uma James and Leslie Samuel Malvo. A Lee Malvo attended high school in Jamaica before emigrating to another Caribbean island in 1998 at age 13, according to The Associated Press.

Leslie Malvo, 55, a building contractor in Kingston, Jamaica, woke up yesterday to the news of the arrests in the sniper shootings and his son's alleged involvement.

"He was a nice kid so I don't know how he got mixed up in this," he told The Associated Press at a street corner near his home in the city's central Waltham Park neighborhood.

There were media reports that Lee Malvo and Muhammad may have met in Antigua, where the local Observer Radio reported Muhammad lived around 1999.

When Malvo and his mother left Jamaica, they went to Haiti and possibly Antigua. In June 2001, they were smuggled into this country.

James arrived in the U.S. earlier than her son and claimed asylum with the Immigration and Naturalization Service in Florida. Her son arrived in Florida a short time later. At some point he made his way to Tacoma, and then Bellingham, said sources familiar with the INS case.

When exactly the boy arrived in Tacoma isn't clear, but while there, he lived with Muhammad, neighbors say.

Josh Patrick, 13, who lives in Tacoma's Oakland neighborhood, said he met Malvo at a local basketball court in the summer of last year.

Patrick said the boy he knew did nothing but hang out at the court and wait for other kids to play. Sometimes other kids made fun of him for that. He described Malvo as "a skinny kid, with a little, tiny 'fro."

Other kids described Malvo as a follower, said Patrick. When he'd ask him what he was doing in the neighborhood, Malvo said he was "visiting his father's people."

Malvo is a suspect in a liquor-store shooting in Montgomery, Ala., where police say he left behind a fingerprint on a piece of paper. One person died and a second was injured in the Sept. 21 shooting.

Investigators in the sniper case said a phone call they received led them to Montgomery. Once Malvo was identified as a suspect in that case, investigators learned about John Allen Muhammad.

As part of that FBI investigation into the shootings, documents were taken from Bellingham High School, where Malvo was a junior last year.

Malvo told fellow students he was ahead in his classes because he had been home-schooled.

Yesterday afternoon, cross-country runners at the school recalled how two girls were failing history until they asked for Malvo's help. Always willing to tutor others, Malvo had a reputation for being very smart.

"He was a genius," said one student who sat next to Malvo in history class.

Students also remembered that Malvo's clothing was a bit unusual for a high-schooler. He usually wore slacks, a dress shirt and tie.

Most students knew few things about the new kid other than he liked to play basketball at lunchtime and hung around with the football players and other athletes.

School officials tried to get background information on Malvo in December 2001, when they became aware that he was attending school without proper documentation, according to Bellingham Police Chief Randy Carroll.

Malvo likely arrived in Bellingham in October 2001, when he showed up at the Lighthouse Mission, a Christian shelter, to stay with Muhammad, who had been living there periodically since early August. Both stayed at the shelter off and on until about Jan. 20, 2002.

Over and over, people at the shelter yesterday used the same words to describe the pair: Quiet. Polite. Respectful. Didn't stick out. Malvo sat near the front of the chapel for nightly Christian services.

"We respect everybody's faith here," longtime Chaplain Ron Todd said. "They were very quiet, gentle people."

Malvo always answered "Yes, sir" or "No, sir," said the men who lived and worked there.

Malvo and Muhammad started going to the local YMCA the same month Malvo arrived in town. They worked out several times a week, playing basketball and lifting weights, according to Dave Harding, its executive director.

"They didn't appear to be doing a routine any different than what anyone else does," Harding said.

Rory Reublin, resident manager at the Lighthouse, said he only remembers one time when he could tell Muhammad had a grip on Malvo: Malvo was talking about something to another resident, and "I looked up to see John just give him a look " just a look," Reublin said.

"The kid shut up just like that. ... I don't know if it was fear factor or what."

When the school documents requested by authorities in Bellingham still hadn't arrived in December, a Bellingham police school-resource officer interviewed Malvo.

Before police could contact Muhammad, they were gone.
Boy
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 09:54 am
I don't care whether they're executed or imprisoned for life; just get them off the streets.

I don't know why we persist in thinking every single person's life has value or equal value. Some people are just a waste of space. I'm not advocating executing them because of that, lol, but I do think some are just not worth saving.

Everyone knows the ramifications of illegal actions and regardless of whether Malvo was under Muhammed's influence, he was obviously bright enough to know the consequences of murdering people. He chose to kill; he deserves to be imprisoned for life.

Has there ever been an explanation for their actions?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 10:14 am
@hawkeye10,
And how in the hell is turning over a killer to the courts of a state where he kill their citizens in any way wrong?

Va have as must right to try the SOB as any other state have where he kill or would you wish that we allow only those states with no death penalty on the books to try this killer?
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 10:25 am
@realjohnboy,
My God, I had forgotten that, rjb.

I don't believe in capitol punishment, but life without parole is better. The reason that I say that is because we may never know the truth. See what I mean, John of Virginia?

http://abc.net.au/cnnnn/img/news/ep0707.jpg
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 10:37 am
@Letty,
The reason that I say that is because we may never know the truth. See what I mean, John of Virginia?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh you have some questions concerning Muhammed guilt?

Would you care to tell us all how or why you question that he was not part of a sniper team that in cold blood kill a number of VA citizens?

Sorry there seem to be zero question concerning this man and I can think of other examples where there is zero question also.

Not beyond reasonable doubt but beyond any question at all.
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 10:58 am
@BillRM,
Of course he was guilty. The point that I was trying to make is if we can determine the reasons behind such horrible actions, then perhaps we can institute planned intervention. The FBI knew of his connections with Osama Ben Laden. Did he have those connections?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 11:03 am
@Letty,
Of course he was guilty. The point that I was trying to make is if we can determine the reasons behind such horrible actions, then perhaps we can institute planned intervention. The FBI knew of his connections with Osama Ben Laden. Did he have those connections?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it take many years to go through the courts if any information can be gotten from them there is plenty of time to do so.

So why do you think that not killing them is going to produce more information?
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 11:20 am
@BillRM,
DC sniper mastermind mum on killing spree to the end; executed in Va. without final words
JARRATT, Va. (AP) " Sniper John Allen Muhammad refused to utter any last words as he was executed, taking to the grave answers about why and how he plotted the killings of 10 people that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area for three weeks in October 2002.
November 9, 2009

Perhaps had he been given life without parole, he may have been induced to explain his actions.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 11:51 am
@Letty,
Letty wrote:

Perhaps had he been given life without parole, he may have been induced to explain his actions.


Perhaps so. However the fact that in the two or so years that have passed since he did these crimes he hasn't seen fit to explain himself or even express remorse, when those actions might have saved his life, doesn't suggest that your hoped for outcome was likely. Moreover, even if he talked, would we be justified or confident in believing him? What value would "understanding" his actions bring to us? It would not restore the innocent dead.

Can you say for sure that his unlamented, rather miserable - and deserved - death won't be a deterrent to some other lunatic who might contemplate similar crimes and fantasies?
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 11:51 am
@Letty,
Perhaps had he been given life without parole, he may have been induced to explain his actions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now given what he did there was no way on earth anyone could had agree to not execute him if he talk. So that is not there to used.

I just can see the victims families or the rest of society for that matter agreeing that if he talk he could go on living.

No way in this world or the next.

Ted Bundy in fact try that game as at the last minute to delay his execution by offering to slowly tell where he had bury some of his victims and the state told him that he would not gain one minute from going to hell by that means.
















0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:21 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Can you say for sure that his unlamented, rather miserable - and deserved - death won't be a deterrent to some other lunatic who might contemplate similar crimes and fantasies?


Well, of course no one can say so "for sure", George. But if past statistical evidence is any kind of bell-wether, it's pretty evident that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent and never has. In fact, my fear is that some ambitious copy-cat could try to better the Muhammed/Malvo exploit by using the same tactics and saying to him/herself: "Aha! I'll go 'em one better -- I won't get caught!"
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:25 pm
I mean, whats really wrong with cruel and unusual. Whatever happened to Legs Talionis (I went to school with him)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:25 pm
@Merry Andrew,
I am suspicious of the conventional statistical arguments put forward on this issue. The comparisons usually leave out large differences in the circumstances surrounding them and involve generally large uncertaincies in the statistics themselves - not to mention the unanswered questions about what might otherwise have happened. Moreover we have ample evidence that long periods of imprisionment don't reform people either.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:27 pm
@Merry Andrew,
The death sentence for this level of crime is the only fair level of punishment and therefore secondary issues like does it deterrent others to me is beside the point.
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:34 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Moreover we have ample evidence that long periods of imprisionment don't reform people either.


True, that.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:37 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

The death sentence for this level of crime is the only fair level of punishment and therefore secondary issues like does it deterrent others to me is beside the point.


For once, I agree with you (what little I can understand of you, that is). I was merely responding to Georgeo'b's contention that the execution might act as a deterrent.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:38 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Can you say for sure that his unlamented, rather miserable - and deserved - death won't be a deterrent to some other lunatic who might contemplate similar crimes and fantasies?


You seem to be arguing that a lunatic who is planning to go on a killing spree might rationally reconsider his plan in the face of the severity of the possible punishment and abandon his plans because he might face the death penalty rather than life in prison. That sounds rather far-fetched.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:39 pm
@Merry Andrew,
These are difficult issues with no clear, consistent resolution. The only person who is surely wrong is he who is sure beyond doubt that he is right.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:40 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
Can you say for sure that his unlamented, rather miserable - and deserved - death won't be a deterrent to some other lunatic who might contemplate similar crimes and fantasies?


You seem to be arguing that a lunatic who is planning to go on a killing spree might rationally reconsider his plan in the face of the severity of the possible punishment and abandon his plans because he might face the death penalty rather than life in prison. That sounds rather far-fetched.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

I take it that you are positing a rational lunatic here. Perhaps he's a German.
 

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