The Jews.

That's simply not true either, Sigh. Nevermind.

Au,

On my way out, my point is that by overstating or equating you take a dangerous step.

e.g. Throughout history blacks generally had less education than whites.

But that doesn't make it a fair statement to say "Blacks are synonymous with uneducated" any more than taking the history of anti-semitism and painting Europe with too broad a brush is.

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Sofia wrote:

Timber brought this on the Big Thread. I thought it bore more attention than it got there. Will add comments soon. Hope to hear opinions.

Why scrap the study?

Note that Timber quoted selectively and that Walter offered a lot of the bits he left out just three posts below.

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I was illustrating an overstatement using au himself as an example.

So, au isn't a hater of Muslims and Hispanics; he's merely intolerant of them.

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I know, thing is, when I masde the hypothetical about Jews I immediately regretted that I didn't use a different people in the example because I didn't want it to seem like a personalized example and any example would have sufficed (so my next example was using a different group). You took it one step further and made a personalized example.

These discussions are tricky, expecially when discussing reverse-*.

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oy, such a tsuris :wink:

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Craven
And all this over my use of the word synonymous. Which was correctly used and conveyed exactly the message intended.
InfraBlue
Illegal aliens do not belong in this nation. Hispanic or otherwise. The fact that the greater majority are Hispanic does not equate into hatred for Hispanics. However, if it makes you happy to say so go right ahead.

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Quote:

X do not belong in this nation. A/B or otherwise. The fact that the greater majority are A/B does not equate into hatred for A/B

au - it does look like you've made Craven's point for him.

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ehBeth

How so?Why, because I believe people have no right to be in this nation illegally. I also believe you shall not kill and steal. As some would have you believe, laws are not made to be broken.

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There seems to be much heat and little light in this discussion. I realize that's not a unique situation, but when people's religion is the topic, it's more so. And I can understand why...

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Quote:

EUMC Media release, 26/11 2003

EU ANTI-RACISM BODY REJECTS ALLEGATIONS OF "SHELVED" ANTI-SEMITISM REPORT - REPORT TO BE PUBLISHED IN EARLY 2004

The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) rejected allegations contained in articles by the Financial Times dated 22/23 November and 24 November that it had "shelves a report on anti-Semitism in Europe because the study concluded that Muslims and pro-Palestinian groups were behind many of the incidents". The EUMC is in fact continuing its research on anti-Semitism and will publish its results early next year.

"The EUMC is an independent body which places utmost importance on the quality, integrity and credibility of its research", said Bob Purkiss, Chair of the EUMC Management Board. "In this case, the Management Board, whose members are independent experts in the field of racism and xenophobia, considered the work undertaken by the contractors to be of poor quality and lacking in empirical evidence. I deeply regret that a collective decision of the Board, based purely on the insufficient quality of the work carried out by the Berlin Centre for Research on ANti-Semitism, has been used to discredit the important work which the EUMC has to do in the fight against racism, xenophobia and anti-Semitism in Europe. The EUMC remains 100% committed to its ongoing research on anti-Semitism and all forms of racism and intolerance. This is why we are continuing our work on anti-Semitism and why we plan to launch the results of our research early next year".

Mr. Purkiss stated further that the Berlin Centre had presented some aspects of its work to representatives of Jewish organisations at an EU Round Table on anti-Semitism in December 2002, where the definition used for anti-Semitism had not receives unanimous backing.

On the question of identifying perpetrators of anti-Semitic acts, the Director, Beate Winkler, stated that "the EUMC has no difficulty in providing such information where it was substantiated. The EUMC is equally not in the business of stigmatising whole communities on the basis of the actions of racist individuals. Inaccurate information only provides further evidence of an attempt to discredit the EUMC. I have personally addressed this issue in speeches and interviews. Misleading information in the press may also further increase a sense of vulnerability and fear within the Jewish community and a feeling of their concerns being ignored."

The EUMC report on anti-Semitism, which will be published in the 1st quarter of 2004, will be based on data and information collected by its network in all 15 EU Member States over 2002 and 2003. The report will also be based on a series of personal interviews currently being undertaken with representatives of Jewish communitiues across Europe. "Through our study we aim to contribute in a meaningful way to the debate on anti-Semitism in Europe and to put forward recommendations for fighting anti-Semitism effectively", said Purkiss.

Note to editors

[..]

The EUMC has a Management Board of independent experts from each Member State, plus a representative of the European Commission, the European Parliament and the Council of Europe. It is the only EU agency made up of independent experts all eminent in their field.

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Without further commentary, just as a quotation:

Quote:

Israel's prime minister says anti-Semitism is rising in Europe, citing attacks on Jews and Jewish interests. His remarks followed an EU poll which showed many believe Israel is the greatest threat to world peace.
Is anti-Semitism really increasing? Is hostility towards Israeli policy in the Middle East becoming anti-Jewish? BBC News Online asked 12 experts on Jewish affairs from Europe and Israel to reflect on the charge. Click on the quotes below to read more. If you would like to tell us what you think, please use the form provided.

[...]

William Wolff, chief regional rabbi of the eastern German state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
I have just been away for a few days, and when I came back there were two rather unpleasant letters waiting for me, both anti-Semitic. I then went for a walk in the town - the manager of the launderette saw me and came out to greet me. He embraced me, asked how things were going.

This latter experience is what is representative of modern Germany, not the former. The anti-Semites are a tiny minority who are given far more attention than they deserve.

It is true that people feel less frightened of criticising Israel, but that is not the same as anti-Semitism. In Germany, because of what has happened here, one must simply be more careful about how one does this. Language must be chosen carefully.

"The anti-Semites are given far more attention than they deserve"
Rabbi Wolff

Some people have pointed to the sorry affair of that conservative German politician who recently compared the Jews with Nazis as an example of rising anti-Semitism. If anything, however, this should be seen as just the opposite. The man was widely condemned, he was expelled from the party. It is in fact a positive story, not a negative one.

There are many Jews in my area who are from the former eastern bloc. They have come to Germany to escape anti-Semitism, and they have found a home here.

More here: Viewpoints: Anti-Semitism and Europe

(I selected the above quotation, because its Germany-related.)

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Walter
I am not implying what Rabbi Wolf has written is not accurate and that Anti-Semitism is indeed not a problem in Germany. I am however, reminded of the attitude of most German Jews in the early 30's They couldn't believe what was happening. After all they were loyal Germans first and foremost. Hitler reminded them the were Jews first and foremost and in fact not Germans at all.

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Totally agreeing.

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Where Raging Fires End
by Stan Goodenough
Nov 27, '03 / 2 Kislev 5764

Last night, some friends gathered in our home for the screening of a newly produced video - a documentary that, we quickly learned, would demand a response from each one of us. I know that what it demonstrated - powerfully but without embroidery - has impacted the future direction and the emphasis of my life.

Lest We Forget traces a clear and unexaggerated line from the anti-Semitism of 1930s Europe that nurtured the environment for the Holocaust, straight to the Jew-hatred raging through, and threatening to consume, large parts of the world we live in today.

Raging and consuming? If this sounds like overstatement where you live, from here - from Israel - anti-Semitism is doing just that.

It is blowing, rampant and out of control, from our front door across the wide expanse of the Arab and Muslim world. From Cairo to Riyadh to Baghdad, from Beirut to Damascus to Tehran, the hatred is being blasted into greater and ever more violent flame by an explosive mix of heinous images, offensive lies, and hysterical daily and weekly preaching to millions who are feeding hungrily off every word they hear.

It was a mixture as toxic as this one that drove Germans in their millions to either enthusiastically support the Nazi agenda, or stand unmoving on the sidelines, as the machine that would so ferociously devour two-thirds of all the Continent’s Jews was built and put into production from Berlin.

If the level of Jew-hatred can be measured by intensity and by its capacity to motivate one people to destroy another, then all that’s changed since the years leading up to World War II is the name of the nation wanting the Final Solution. All that’s moved is the map.

Sixty-five years ago, the focal point was Nazi Europe. Today it is the Muslim Middle East.

At the same time, anti-Semitism is smoldering in Europe and erupting into the open sporadically, with increasing frequency. Drawn from hiding by an almost universally anti-Israel press, the prejudice that so saturates the history of Europe’s states is poised to take hold once again; it has already regained a level of political acceptability in diplomatic and artistic circles that just 10 years ago was unimagined.

What Lest We Forget shows, starting back in the ‘30s, is the nature and extent of the incitement to hatred, the degradation of the Jew as the “untermensch”, comparing him to the rat, the fly, flea-infested vermin. It captures the conditioning of the German and Austrian people of all ages, as with roars of approval, they cheer the voices urging them to find out and mark the Jew as their enemy. It shows how those Germans were brought to the place where they believed in the “virtue” of, and were eagerly ready to assist in, the genocide of the Jews.

Recalled, too, is the unwillingness of the rest of the world to respond to this looming threat, even though Hitler’s intentions were openly declared and printed in newspapers across the globe; clear for all who wanted to, to see.

The producers expose the fathomless hatred and unparalleled cruelty inflicted upon Europe’s Jews, revealing how whole families were decimated, their relatives brutalized and murdered in the most savage and inhumane ways known to man. They successfully communicate the anguish of those who survived the Holocaust, and they show what is visible of the scars burnt on their souls, still there until today.

From there, Lest We Forget swings the camera to 2003, zooming in on a nation today being taught by its leaders and its religion, in its school books and on its television, that Jews are descended from monkeys, and pigs; that they are sub-human, and that it is Allah’s will that they be hunted down and killed, wherever they are found.

Vivid on our screen are the imams’ calls to their congregants in mosques across the region to rise up, find, and “itbach al-yahood!” - “kill the Jews!” And unmistakably evident (which we know too from the results of the repeatedly conducted polls carried out among the Arab people), is the willingness, the eager commitment of millions of Muslims, to shahadah, martyrdom, in pursuit of the “virtuous” perpetration of yet another genocide of the Jews.

The cruel barbarism of the Palestinian terrorists, their tearing apart of Jews limb from limb, their ‘suicide’ bombers’ decimating of family after family after family, their stonings and burnings and maimings; the naked, unrestrained Jew-hatred, the traumatization of the nation - this too is shown.

So is the pain of those left behind, some of them actual victims of the Holocaust and now living in fear of the Arabs finishing what the Germans began.

The world’s refusal to take seriously this threat to the Jews - their willingness to excuse it as not anti-Semitism, but rather a nationalistic dispute with Zionism - and this even as they robotically mouth the vows to “never again” permit such a crime to take place - this, too, is evident in the film. We are reminded of the willingness of world leaders to condemn Israel’s efforts to defend herself, and, where possible, limit Israel’s ability to do so, even as they pursue lucrative arms deals with the Arab states, who are feverishly acquiring those weapons for only one purpose.

The film ends with the reminder that those who fail to learn from history will have to go through it again. Also, that “evil triumphs when good men do nothing.” And it leaves us with the assurance that the world is preparing to let happen what it allowed to happen before.

Let us suppose for a moment that we are there, back in 1930:

We read Hitler’s Mein Kampf and follow his rise to power; listening to his diatribes against the Jews and the thunderous applause with which his threats to deal with them once and for all are welcomed by the masses. Our children play the board game Juden Raus, while on the shelves in their schoolrooms and in the public libraries, millions of copies of the classic anti-Semitic forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are stocked for every German man, woman and child to read. Increasingly, we see brazen acts of anti-Semitism perpetrated in broad daylight, while dark rumors about plans to mete out “special treatment” to the Jews circulate all around.

Diplomats representing other European countries make disparaging remarks about their Jews, while publicly congratulating Hitler for assuming the reins of total power. Famous artists and musicians add their voices to the swelling chorus of calls for Jews to be set apart from their host nations, to be classified as “not real Germans,” “not real Poles.”

The Jews constitute the greatest threat to world peace, to world prosperity. They are also, let us not forget, the accursed Christ Killers. It is our national and Christian duty to rid the world of them…

All in all, it took just 25 years for Hitler’s brand of anti-Semitism to take root, grow, and produce its horrendous fruit.

The German people had one leader who commanded their attention through his powerful oratory skills and enrapturing demagoguery of the Jews. The Arab people have thousands of people in positions of leadership who, for more the 60 years, have been sowing the seeds of Jew-hatred in the minds of their people.

This sowing continues without letup until today. Many more Arab people want the Jews done away with now than there were Germans who wanted to see them wiped out back then. To refute this point is to deny this truth: If today’s Israeli Jews were left as defenseless as their forefathers were in the cities of Europe 65 years ago, genocide would already have been unleashed upon them - Israel would long ago have ceased to be.

Postscript:

Earlier yesterday, before watching Lest We Forget, I screened another video, this time on the Internet. In it, a screaming young Arab boy is bound and has his throat slit over a bowl by two orthodox Jews, who use their victim’s blood to make matza - the traditional Passover bread.

The clip was taken from a Syrian television program. It was aired this week in Lebanon. Down in Egypt, a prime time TV series is earning rave reviews, based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Yesterday, we reported that a British newspaper cartoon depicting Prime Minister Ariel Sharon biting the head off an Arab boy and devouring him just won first prize in that nation’s cartoon of the year competition.

London’s high society talk about the Jews getting what’s coming to them, while French diplomats in England’s capital talk openly about Israel as “that sh***y little country” that poses the greatest threat to world peace.

No less than 60 percent of all the citizens of Europe agree with him.

We are moving back toward the abyss, and world leaders are doing nothing to confront and help combat the raging fire of Islam’s anti-Semitism, nor the smoldering flames of Europe’s.

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The values by which we are to survive are not rules for just and unjust conduct, but are those deeper illuminations in whose light justice and injustice, good and evil, means and ends are seen in fearful sharpness of outline.
Jacob Bronowski

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Wow,
values are deep illuminations in whose light justice and injustice, good and evil, means and ends are seen in fearful sharpness of outline.

I wonder, though, if
a) by including "means and ends" in a contrastive list along with "justice and injustice" and "good and evil," he means that "means" are good and just, and that "ends" are unjust and evil; or
b) if he means that "means and ends" are to be seen in fearful sharpness of outline of the illuminations of value.

I think he is stating the latter,b.

If so, That's a devastaingly powerful statement.

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There are other Jewish opinions as well: when you look at my above quotation and read e.g. the comments by Yaron Ezrahi and David Aaronovitch.

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au1929 wrote:

Where Raging Fires End
by Stan Goodenough
Nov 27, '03 / 2 Kislev 5764

[..] Postscript:

Earlier yesterday, before watching Lest We Forget, I screened another video, this time on the Internet. In it, a screaming young Arab boy is bound and has his throat slit over a bowl by two orthodox Jews, who use their victim's blood to make matza - the traditional Passover bread.

The clip was taken from a Syrian television program. It was aired this week in Lebanon. Down in Egypt, a prime time TV series is earning rave reviews, based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Yesterday, we reported that a British newspaper cartoon depicting Prime Minister Ariel Sharon biting the head off an Arab boy and devouring him just won first prize in that nation's cartoon of the year competition.

London's high society talk about the Jews getting what's coming to them, while French diplomats in England's capital talk openly about Israel as "that sh***y little country" that poses the greatest threat to world peace.

No less than 60 percent of all the citizens of Europe agree with him.

We are moving back toward the abyss, and world leaders are doing nothing to confront and help combat the raging fire of Islam's anti-Semitism, nor the smoldering flames of Europe's.

I have a bit of a problem with this last bit - or just a few things to nitpick on, put it that way. About the European bit, that is.

Dunno enough about the Arab world to comment on that part. I do think - even just from, for example, seeing translated clips of Al-Manar TV News - that there is a virulent spread of anti-Semite myths and images taking place, as it is increasingly incorporated in the anti-Israel news reporting. And thats pretty dangerous. European anti-semitic 'icons' being imported into an Arab culture already outraged by the Israeli repression in the Palestinian occupied territories makes for a volatile mix.

As for Europe. Anti-semitism is a problem, and it does kind of seem to be coming in again through the back door (be it on a much smaller scale than what is suggested by some American conservatives) after having been practically marginalised by the mid-90s. On the far right, traditionally the home of anti-Semites, the newest populists seem to stay away from anti-Semitism - or even to take up the cause of the Jewish minority in their campaigns against Muslim immigrants (which in itself is something to remark on). But on the far left, meanwhile, you now see something of a 'come-back' as radical Muslim and radical socialist protesters find each other on "Palestine". You have to go pretty damn far to the left, though - think Trotskyites.

As for the examples the author mentions - they hit upon real enough points, but by overstating them somewhat tendentiously, the author undermines their effectiveness, I think.

1. About that 60% of Europeans who think Israel is "the greatest threat to world peace". Thats based on a misreading of the poll. Those polled were not asked which country they considered the greatest threat, at all. They were asked which countries they considered a threat to world peace. Israel was mentioned more than any other country.

Now that suggests an unhealthy focus on the threat to world peace that Israel (or more precisely, the Israeli occupation of Palestine) does actually present. But it's not quite the same as "60% of Europeans thinks Israel is the greatest threat to world peace".

In fact, it's not all that odd that people would mention Israel more often than other countries in terms of threatening world peace. I mean, how many countries do you know of that occupy (territories) of another country - do so with a violence that claims deaths on an everyday basis - in the face of a decade-long violent insurgency - which in turn has spurred both waves of suicide bombers and an outrage around the region that has boosted the ranks of extremist international terrorist groups?
Well, there's Russia and Chechnya - but thats about it, I think.

The unhealthy focus is there, to be sure. I think if the pollsters had asked: which country is the worst violator of human rights, Israel might well have been mentioned (among) the most, too - even though its clear that theres dictatorships out there to which Israel's human rights violations pale in comparison. Saddam's Iraq was one. But people have pounced upon this 60% number lately to propose the image of a Europe wrecked with resurgent anti-Semitism. But hell, asked which countries pose a threat to world peace currently I'd mention Israel, too - along with Saudi-Arabia, anarchy-wrecked Iraq, Putin's Russia and the US. So - ?

2. The "French diplomats in England's capital", I dont know. Hadnt heard of anything like that. They remain anonymous/unspecified in this article.

3. The prize-winning English cartoon. I saw it in the paper and I was, to be honest, surprised that it had won the award. I thought it was inappropriate because there is too obvious a reference to be seen - whether intended or not - to the powerful "baby-blood eating Jews" myth that triggered so many progroms through the 19th, 20th century. The cartoonist, however, maintains he had meant no such reference. He had another 'storyline' in mind: that of ruthless politicians preying on whatever victims they can find just to score election points. The cartoon, you must know, was published during the Israeli election campaign - when Sharon happened to decide on a missile raid on Gaza City. The cartoon features Sharon apparently biting into a (Palestinian) baby while telling the viewer: "What's wrong - you never seen a politician kissing babies before?".

Now I dunno. I guess someone without a keen awareness of the history of anti-semitic mythology could come up with this idea as a form for biting sarcasm about Sharon's political (electioneering) ruthlessness. But the people giving the award should have known the power of the connotation that many would see as implied, shouldn't they? Perhaps we are spoiled in Western-Europe - even anti-Semites like Le Pen and Haider havent strayed anywhere near blood libel-type hysteria - I guess there really could be masses of people out there who havent even heard of it - or wouldn't think of it, in any case (though political cartoonists should know better).

In any case - my point - there is a story here - its got different sides.

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Well, here you go, you can decide yourselves ...

The cartoon:

http://www.politicalcartoon.co.uk/images/awards2003/sharon.jpg

The explanation by the cartoonist:

Quote:

On Sunday morning, as I listened to radio and TV news bulletins and leafed through the papers, one story stood out as a subject for the next day's cartoon: Ariel Sharon's attack on Gaza City. It was not the first time I had been prompted to criticise Sharon. But what stood out was the timing - the thought that the assault was not unconnected with the approaching Israeli election.

The task was to create an image illustrating that, although the missiles had been targeted at Gaza, the message was aimed squarely at the Israeli electorate. My starting-point was the newsreel pictures of helicopter gunships over the rubble of a Palestinian town. The first associated image that sprang to mind was of the helicopters and their blaring loudspeakers in Apocalypse Now. To me, the message they would be broadcasting was: "Vote Sharon".

There was clearly a gulf between our mundane experience and this more macabre form of electioneering, which could be exploited in a cartoon. The image of an estate car plastered in stickers, a loudhailer taped to the roof, supplanted these sinister aircraft. But one thing stood out that already had stock comic potential - the politician kissing babies. I wanted to find a darker equivalent to that.

My first idea was of Sharon puckering up to a child, revealing missile-like fangs. Then my thoughts progressed from biting to eating children, and immediately Goya's painting Saturn Devouring One of His Sons came to mind. Goya's picture has the power to shock that I thought the situation merited. By borrowing the image, I hoped to benefit from its associations; those who knew the classical myth of the Titan driven, by his fear of being supplanted by his children, to the insanity of devouring them, might draw some parallels.

Do I believe, or was I trying to suggest, that Sharon actually eats babies? Of course not - one of the other benefits of the borrowed image was that it was sited squarely in the field of allegory. My cartoon was intended as a caricature of a specific person, Sharon, in the guise of a figure from classical myth who, I hoped, couldn't be farther from any Jewish stereotype.

I also omitted certain things. I might have drawn Israeli insignia on the tank or helicopter to set the scene. But not only did I have no intention of being anti-Semitic; I had no desire to make an anti-Israel comment. At a time when the Israeli Labour party was offering the choice of a settlement, I sought only to target a man and a party I consider to be actively working against peace."
Dave Brown

(Both from the Political Cartoon Society)

Opposing takes on the matter (of contrasting styles) from Indymedia posters:

Quote:

The cartoon uses the anti-semitic blood libel, in which Jews were accused from the Middle Ages of killing Christian children and drinking their blood. This libel was used to incite pogroms against Jews and the killing of Jewish men, women and children in ghettos throughout Europe. As a human rights advocate and lawyer, I did not join the initial criticism of the cartoon and this was on the grounds that all political comment and charicatures are legitimate as free speech. Hence, although this particular cartoon bordered on incitement to racial hatred rather than legitimate political comment, I hesitated to call for its supression in the interests of free speech.

However, the conferment of an award is another matter. The conferment of this award on a viscious anti-semitic charicature is a base and damaging act. It constitutes flagrant prejudice and hostility to the Jewish population. The award contributes to the revival of the new antisemitism - which is already claiming victims in Europe (in the bombing of synagogues and Jewish schools).

It is not clear to this writer whether the conferment of the award was the result of malice or ignorance on the part of the judges. Perhaps if this is the level of their judgment, I should also add in explanation to them (with contempt for their independent ability to assess racist prejudice) that the blood libel was not founded on any religious, legendary or historical practice amongst the Jews and that the only murder, which actually took place, was by the Christians who propagated the libel.

Frances Raday

Quote:

It is SOOOO not a racist cartoon and it is SOOOOO nothing to do with the irrelevant racist "blood-libel" bollocks.

It is blatantly a piece of political satire that caricatures on political individual and lampoons the politician's traditional practice of "baby-kissing."

You could call it an "incitement" to anti-Sharon behaviour, but racial hatred to ALL Jews? Do me a favour!

Regardless of whether you are a "professor of law" or not, you are clearly one of the morons about who conflates the government of Israel with the "Jewish people" (whoever they are) and thinks that all criticism or dissent of this murderous regime is "anti-semitic."

Shame on you and to everyone else: This just goes to show that our "academic elite" can be just as wildly wrong about stuff as anyone else.

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People like Ariel Sharon are deliberately trying to spread confusion between anti semitism and criticism of the foreign policy of the state of Israel. He hopes that criticism of his government will become muted or silent out of fear of charges of anti semitism. It's a sign of the desperation of Sharon that he has to resort to such measures. Now before au or Suzette jumps in and says this post only proves me to be the re-incarnation of Adolf Hitler, point out the anti semitism in the 3 sentences above. I'm against Israeli policy not because Israel is a Jewish state (I really don't give a damn about religion), but because Israel occupies the territory of the Palestinian Arabs (who happen to be mostly Muslim, but I don't care for Islam either), and I'm against Sharon not because he's Jewish but because he's an indicted war criminal and a threat to world peace.

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