Myth of "Separation of Church and State"

Boy, I can really stir up a controversy! But, in ending this...I do want to thank you all for the debate. I'm not the enemy, no matter what you may think. I just wish it could have been without insults or negative dialect. It was fun. I'll shut up now!

And thank you to those who didn't hit me so hard! *rubbing my bruises*

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southerngrl wrote:

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I don't know that I've ever heard any historian or teacher ever assert that slavery was the "sole reason" or the "only reason" -- or the war -- or for why the South fought.

Really? You are one of the few then.

Okay. Name a few historians or teachers who assert that slavery was the "sole reason" or "only reason" for the South going to war.

I'm always willing to learn.

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It certainly was a reason -- and history (the unrevised kind) indicates it was one of the important reasons.

Incorrect history. History written by Northern writers and advocates.

Sounds like a major case of denial going on here.

For the record -- what is the revisionist position on this? Did slavery play any part at all in the move to war -- according to you people?

Once again, I'm willing to learn.

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Anyone who starts an essay with stupid, dishonest statements like this shouldn't be taken seriously.

You just admitted to a certain degree that it was true. I'm confused.

I agree -- you are confused.

I never admitted that it (the stupid, dishonest statement) was true to any degree. In fact, I said it was a straw man.

For the record: "Slavery was a reason -- and an important reason" IS NOT THE SAME AS "slavery is the only reason" or "slavery is the sole reason."

Try to think logically, SG. Don't let your passion cloud your thinking.

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But considering the rationalizations I hear coming from you, SG, I can understand why you would recommend it.

Thank you!

You are quite welcome.

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BOTTOM LINE: If this country and its institutions are in danger -- they are in much greater danger from the conservative likes of you -- than from the terrorists of the world.

Yeah, right.

Ahhh...you agree. And I thought you wouldn't! What a pleasant surprise.

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southerngrl wrote:

The shot was intentionally fired over the bow of a union ship as a warning shot. Lincoln advised the Confederate leaders that the ship was carrying supplies for union soldiers still remaining on the Fort. When it was learned that military personnel were hiding below deck (presumably to take back control of the Fort), the Confederate Army was ordered to fire the shot. Suggesting that the Fort Sumter garrison would be withdrawn, the Lincoln secretly stalled for time while organizing military forces to conquer the South while preparing to reinforce Fort Sumter. The Confederates were "almost fooled," but recognized the truth. They bombarded Fort Sumter into surrender -- and didn't kill a single man in the process.

Of course there is a lot more information that led up to this...like the high tariffs and lack of control over the South by Lincoln. Another man we hear myths about in our schools books.

You buy whatever the Neo-Confederates tell ya, don't ya. Point by point: Star of the West was on a military mission, the President of the United States has every right, in his capacity as Commander in Chief, to order troops to a federal installation. Your gross historical errors beggar your argument. Lincoln was not President in January, 1861, when President Buchanan decided that, to avoid provocation, he would not send a warship, but rather a chartered civilian ship. The Provisional Confederate Congress did not sit until February 4, 1861. Star of the West was fired upon on January 9, 1861. Therefore your remarks about Lincoln, and any communications with a Confederate government are the purest fantasy. What makes you think that any President of the United States should be required to consult the wild-eyed firebrands of a state government before he takes the decision to reinforce or provision a federal installation? Lincoln was not the President; there were no Confederate leaders for Buchanan to have communicated with, because there was no Confederate government; Star of the West was caught in a crossfire as all of the batteries around the entrance to the harbor opened on her; Star of the West only suffered minor damage before her captain decided to turn and steam back to New York; the lack of damage to that ship, and the lack of casualties in the April bombardment are more a tribute to the poor military skills of the South Carolinians than to any restraint on their part. You've seriously misstated history here, but i won't refer to you as a liar any longer--you're a very obviously deluded individual who hasn't done any reasonable historical research. You just spew out whatever garbage has been provided you by those who are telling you what you want to hear in the first place.

In the other thread, you waxed rhapsodic with your nonsense about Thomas Jackson and Robert Lee. It is apparent to me that you know as little about them as you do about the Fort Sumter affair. The individual who i consider can be characterized as the most thoroughly modern and competent general officer in that war was a Virginian--George Henry Thomas. Unlike Lee, however, he remained faithful to the oath he had taken to preserve, protect and defend the constitution, and remained in the Federal Army. You are so seriously deluded, that you are willing to glorify those who fought to keep millions of men and women in degrading, and frequently lethal, bondage. That is just disgusting. I would never entrust children to someone so deluded as you--i would fear for their mental health.

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Your statement that Lee owned slaves is a lie.

Your statement that Jackson loved his slave is made without a shred of evidence--and may well be a lie.

Where's your documentation? I will refer you to just two works which will blow your statements right out of the water:

R. E. Lee: a biography, Douglas Southall Freeman. New York; London: Scribner's, 1937-1940. 4 v.

and

Stonewall Jackson : the man, the soldier, the legend, James I. Robertson, Jr. New York : Macmillan Pub. USA ; London : Prentice Hall International, c 1997.

Douglas Southall Freeman is man so well known to students of history in Virginia that i hardly need mention his credentials. If you don't know him, you truly are ignorant of your state's history. James I. Robertson, Jr. is an Alumni Distinguished Professor in History at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University History Department. So, you can hardly accuse either of these men of being northern propagandists.

What are your sources for the nonsense you've presented? Some web site you're fond of?

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southerngrl,

I haven't been to your other threads but it appears odd to me that you come to this site, bandy around insults to anyone who doesn't share your views and then claim not to be picking a fight.

Your world, your life and your god seem very distant from my own experiences.

I consider the USA to be noticeably more religious (whatever denomination or religion) than Europe.

I see fear behind your rage...fear of the unknown.

We don't use quite the same terms here, but I imagine from your general tone that you would like our prime minister, Tony Blair.

He is certainly a "Liberal" by your standards, and the party he leads, the Labour party, was founded by socialists. The word socialist is now rarely found in the party literature, but it is nothing to be afraid of.

Share in real debate, see the other side and appreciate that there are many wonderful people who think that freedom/liberty comes as a result of the programmes you despise:

freedom to pursue a decent education
freedom from discrimination
freedom from imposed religion
freedom from guns

One freedom I believe that we all uphold is freedom of speech. My message is not "don't talk so much" but "listen a little more" and be critical of what you know...you may find that you learned from a biased source.

KP

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blah, blah, blah...I've already heard all of these, over a period of many years...documentarily, they hold no water. You want sources...I've got sources...however, I hardly see the point...but you asked.

As far as insulting anyone...I'd like to know the exact quote where I insulted anyone, especially without provocation!

http://www.thesouthernamerican.org/fcts1.html

http://www.thesouthernamerican.org/fcts2.html

http://www.rense.com/general41/truthab.htm

http://www.thesouthernamerican.org/lincoln.html

http://www.shucks.net/

And, I would suggest reading "The South Was Right", by James and Walter Kennedy...here's the link and I would suggest going into the book and reading a few pages...or better yet, get the book. There is so much "proven" information in that book, that you'd have to be a dunce not to accept it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1565540247/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-9380102-6553733#reader-page

Also, these are excellent reads.
-Southern by the Grace of God by Michael Andrew Grissom
-Was Jefferson Davis Right? by James Ronald Kennedy, Walter Donald Kennedy
-When in the Course of Human Events by Charles Adams
-Myths of American Slavery by Walter Donald Kennedy, Bob Harrison
-The Southern Nation: The New Rise of the Old South by R. Gordon Thornton

Here's an article from H. K. Edgerton...a black man who walked across Dixie...see what he has to say...it's interesting. I have met him personally, and he's one of our greatest advocates. He knows the truth.

http://www.ashevilletribune.com/the_man_behind_the_rebel_flag.htm

Put everything you have heard or read behind you and open your minds to some new information you haven't heard. See, I've heard both sides, researched both sides, and feel that is the only way you'll ever know the truth.

Can we stop now?

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You started all of this, and now you wanna stop? If you don't enjoy this sort of thing, then don't come here, or go anywhere on the web, and post inflamatory rants about religion and morality, while touting a criminal government which fought to keep people enslaved.

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Setanta wrote:

You started all of this, and now you wanna stop? If you don't enjoy this sort of thing, then don't come here, or go anywhere on the web, and post inflamatory rants about religion and morality, while touting a criminal government which fought to keep people enslaved.

Stop being so mean, damn it! Don't you think we've all had enough. I see you dismissed all of my sources...or you wouldn't still believe I want to keep people enslaves...what a ridiculous comment. Grow up.

Oh, and I forgot one...

http://www.freestateproject.org/

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I haven't dismissed them, i just haven't had the opportunity to go view the fantasies you tout as truth. I'll be happy to demolish them when i have the time.

Don't be mean? Then don't you spread filth about how virtuous and wonderful were those who fought and killed in a war which claimed nearly a million American lives, in order to maintain slavery.

I haven't accused you of promoting slavery, just of touting as wonderful those who fought to preserve it. You butcher history in the process. You are the one who needs to grow up, and to learn how to judge the value of sources. I strongly suspect that you are however, a crypto-racist.

Gee, this is so exciting . . . we've never had our very own white supremecist Confederate apologist before . . .

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Southerngrl, I will try to back off and be a bit understanding.

You need to understand that the viewpoint you are supporting is quite offensive to many of us, and with reason. I am not going to argue more, but I want explain why many of us are so hostile to your position.

I am from an interracial family. I am also old enough to experience the (very end of the) effects of Jim Crow.

I am quite white appearing, but my younger sisters are black. I remember during a long trip in the South we were told quite plainly that my sisters (who were toddlers at the time) could not eat in the dining room. We would have to leave them outside.

Southerngrl you need to accept that this discrimination was widespread in the South for many decades after the civil war. It was not just the KKK. It was supported and accepted by the vast majority of southern society. (Incidently I not saying it was just the South. I am from Boston - you may know what we went through here.)

This system of injustice and hatred was *directly* supported by religion. Segregation with all its unfairness was preached from the pulpit and politicians used religion speeches to support it. Read about George Wallace if you want to see why we feel this way.

Southerngrl, you come with the Confederate Battle flag and a very partisan religious post - what were you expecting?

The Confederate flag is a symbol of racism to many of us. This is not *our* fault. After the civil war Southerners used this flag to support Jim Crow and all of the laws (including segregation) that worked to keep non whites out of the best parts of American society. Even now, those who espouse the most extreme views against justice and equality always seem to be waving the Confederate flag.

My parents were involved in the Civil Rights struggle. They faced the water hoses and dogs of sothern police trying to keep the unjust system of segregation.

There were many white southerners who were on the side of Civil Rights. The Confederate flag was always only used by those who wanted to continue racism and segregation.

Combine your flag with your religious rhetoric - that is the same as the rhetoric that has been used to justify racism for so many years -- do you understand how we are interpreting this?

We at A2K are generally a pretty accepting bunch. We are willing to discuss a variety of issues and can see different sides of many of them. Look at some of the posts that you are not involved in.

But we are also a pretty knowlegable bunch. We know the history of the Confederate movement. We know how symbols are used to support ideas - even if they are offensive.

Your post and your avatar represent an extreme view. You will not be taken seriously here with this viewpoint. Not on A2K and not anywhere else where there are educated knowledgable people.

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Ms S. Girl,
Instead of providing these websites of information, please just think. Think and, as Kitchen Pete says, listen. How much of your life is wrapped around your church and your southern state? Can you step outside that for a moment and look at a bigger picture? Must we always fight with you about the damned Civil War? And God? Your version of history, your version of the Almighty and your views of how the country should be run are (really and truly) not mine.

I asked a couple of simple questions, neither of which you answered.

#1 - Which denomination would you want to be the Christian version for the United States?
#2, If you were so interested in a Christian State, then why are you unmoved as to the state following the ways of Christ with the tax money it requires of us?

Certainly those questions were never addressed in any Founding documents nor were they ever agreed upon. I think that the Founding Fathers were, instead (and for good reason) extremely careful not to have to answer those questions by not addressing their God, their Creator, or the Almighty, as Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Allah or Mother Nature. They used neutral words on occasion, quite abstract and to my ears, poetic. Never did they suggest ANYWHERE that the courts or the government should look to the Bible, to any Commandments, or to any other book.

It was a good thing the Founding Fathers didn't specify any such things and it has worked fairly well. So the thought of you wanting to change all these things is reprehensible and repugnant, particularly when you seem neither Christlike nor friendly.

Sincerely,
Piffka

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You also stated that there was a time when Christianity was the ONLY religion practiced here. I pointed out that
this was not true, and you didn't respond, you completely ignored it.

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Before you run off, SG, how about finishing what you started.

Here is some unfinished business from my last post:

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southerngrl wrote:
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I don't know that I've ever heard any historian or teacher ever assert that slavery was the "sole reason" or the "only reason" -- or the war -- or for why the South fought.

Really? You are one of the few then.

Okay. Name a few historians or teachers who assert that slavery was the "sole reason" or "only reason" for the South going to war.

I'm always willing to learn.

So name a few -- and give us some citations. You are saying that there are many people who claim slavery was the ONLY reason or the SOLE reason for the war.

Give us a few names.

Or acknowledge that you were engaging in hyperbole -- just as the essayist was.

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It certainly was a reason -- and history (the unrevised kind) indicates it was one of the important reasons.

Incorrect history. History written by Northern writers and advocates.

Sounds like a major case of denial going on here.

For the record -- what is the revisionist position on this? Did slavery play any part at all in the move to war -- according to you people?

Once again, I'm willing to learn.

How about an answer?

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Anyone who starts an essay with stupid, dishonest statements like this shouldn't be taken seriously.

You just admitted to a certain degree that it was true. I'm confused.

I agree -- you are confused.

I never admitted that it (the stupid, dishonest statement) was true to any degree. In fact, I said it was a straw man.

For the record: "Slavery was a reason -- and an important reason" IS NOT THE SAME AS "slavery is the only reason" or "slavery is the sole reason."

Try to think logically, SG. Don't let your passion cloud your thinking.

Any comments on that?

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I am from an interracial family. I am also old enough to experience the (very end of the) effects of Jim Crow.

This is where the problem lies. So many, like yourself, will not open their minds to hear what the facts really were. There were many black Confederates, and there are black Southern heritage supporters who have done just that. Researched the history that's been spewing negatively. I respect and admire any person, no matter what their race or background is, based on their character only. I cannot express enough that this flag does NOT stand for hate or racism or slavery. That, if you read some of the links I posted, explains just the opposite. Of course, you don't have to believe it, but, personally, I do not fly my St. Andrews Cross because I believed in slavery or hate blacks. I just don't. It is a flag that stood for a group of people who wanted to remain states and limit federal gov't, and to avoid the high tariffs that would have (if not for the war) ruined us economically...some of which we still feel the effects of in the South. So you can believe whatever you want, I am not racist and I will defend anyone who is being mistreated or disrespected based on their race or nationality. That's just all there is to it.

I know it sounds like a cliche'...however, for years I had a black male friend who had a key to my home, watched basketball with me, played music (he was a musician) for my kids, watched my kids and even slept on my sofa. Totally platonic relationship, however, alcohol has consumed him and I tell him he is still welcome in my home, but not when he is intoxicated. My former next door neighbors were black and were my favorites on the whole block. They understood and were not offended at our Confederate flag. We explained it to them and they were open minded enough to see we were far from racist. As I stated before, I am the one who left a church because a black man wasn't being welcomed dating one of our white teenagers. I told the church that he is a human being and our doors should be open to anyone at anytime. So please don't judge me for something you don't know about. I am Christian first, Southern second. And not racist.

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Southerngrl, it's not just the issue of racism. The Confederate flag represents a whole bunch of very extreme beliefs that most of us find backwards and offensive.

The "Southern Heritage" movement that you are a part of seems to be both narrow and extreme in many issues. You have not done anything to dissuade me of this.

I don't want to argue these issues, but you can convince me that I am wrong about the Confederate flag if you can show me some websites in your movement that have rational moderate views. For example - show me a site with this flag that....

- Recognizes the work the United Nations does fighting poverty, ending exploitation of children and ending starvation in addition to peaciemaking.

- Appreciates the ACLU for the work they have done protecting the rights of them to keep up websites that offend so many of us.

- Acknowledges the fact that many Americans are legitmately uncomfortable when a religion that is not theirs is an integral part of their school day.

- Honors the work of the civil rights movement to end forced segregation and work addressing the racial inequality left in our Nation (notice I said 'our Nation' and not the South).

I scanned through some of the websites you posted. They all seem about the same to me. One lists the ACLU, NAACP and the UN as "enemies".

I don't want to argue these issues. I give them as things that are cosidered moderate by most of the nation.

It is just that I attribute the Confederate flag with a narrow, extreme viewpoint that goes beyond racism. Everything you have posted supports this impression.

So there Southerngrl. I have given you four ways you can change my mind.

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- Recognizes the work the United Nations does fighting poverty, ending exploitation of children and ending starvation in addition to peaciemaking.

Ok...(deep breath) here we go...as far as the U.N....not only do Southerners think they are a crock...so do a lot of educated Americans. See, we can see through their charade of supplying food and clothing for the poor...but so does Pat Robertson. You cannot judge a conglomeration like the U.N. based on one category of "good works". We must look at them as the political and "holier than thou" attitude. Here is a link in respect to the "U.N.".

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-09-un-poll_x.htm

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- Appreciates the ACLU for the work they have done protecting the rights of them to keep up websites that offend so many of us.

Nice thought, however, the ACLU has done EVERTHING THEY POSSIBLY CAN TO ELIMINATE THE CONFEDERATE FLAG. They only want to assist NAMBLA (pediphile group) as a freedom of speech organization, and remove God (our creator) in every public place. Don't you see...they don't like minorities...the minorities keep the money coming...they are still using blacks and minorities as THEIR slaves. They wouldn't be in business if that weren't true.

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- Acknowledges the fact that many Americans are legitmately uncomfortable when a religion that is not theirs is an integral part of their school day.

Since American was founded on Christianity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ...I feel that it should be respected, not necessarily practiced. If I went into a Mosque (like the one in Fairfax that teaches death to Jews and Americans) I would expect to hear praises to Allah. This only bothers me in the sense that they are here to kill us. The peace-keeping Muslims are more than welcome in this country. Only 50-100 years ago, immigrants came here because of what we were and what we stood for. They adapted to our culture, our values, our morals, etc...they didn't come here to change them. You are free to worship a frog if you like, but, don't tell me I can't preserve the heritage that our country was founded on.

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- Honors the work of the civil rights movement to end forced segregation and work addressing the racial inequality left in our Nation (notice I said 'our Nation' and not the South).

In the beginning...in the 60's, the civil rights movement was warranted...my parents and grandparents believed that minorities did have a right to vote and to have equal protection under the law. It's when you start to abuse that and take away OUR rights...in other words, when you cross that threshold and start asking for special priviledges...that's when it becomes racism toward non-minorities. Don't ask for extra favors...just accept those that everybody gets.

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I scanned through some of the websites you posted. They all seem about the same to me. One lists the ACLU, NAACP and the UN as "enemies".

Actually, when they become what I have just explained...they are the enemy. Why would YOU support an organization that promotes the freedom to post a website that teaches how to molest children?

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I don't want to argue these issues. I give them as things that are cosidered moderate by most of the nation.

You would be very surprised at the increasing number of American citizens that have had just about enough. Not just Southern people, either.

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It is just that I attribute the Confederate flag with a narrow, extreme viewpoint that goes beyond racism. Everything you have posted supports this impression.

That is a bold-faced lie. I have never promoted racism. You assume that because I am a proud Southern rebel who wants to preserve my heritage and honor those who fought for our cause. Again, I am not racist.

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So there Southerngrl. I have given you four ways you can change my mind.

I know it didn't work, but, I gave it all I had. The subjects are too complex and this forum is too small to go on endlessly with facts and figures to try to change the mind of a leftist liberal who honestly has no desire to look at the other side. I consider myself very lucky to have been given the education and the experience of seeing both sides. Do you know when I was in school, I was told that Lincoln was a "great" President and that he ended slavery. I believed it!!!! Little did I know that he was for apartheid and felt that the white race was superior...that is why I discard all mis-information about him. I have the documentation to prove these charges...so I'm not just running off at the mouth. I will give you the proof if you so desire.

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southerngrl wrote:

Ok...(deep breath) here we go...as far as the U.N....not only do Southerners think they are a crock...so do a lot of educated Americans.

You ought really to be more careful with your wording, SG.

But I appreciate the laugh.

Any chance you are going to get to my post at some point?

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so I am only left to reason that southerngrl believes that educated americans and southerners are different folks.

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Ahhh Southerngrl,

As expected you supported the ultra-conservative, extremist perspective on every single issue. In doing so you make unsupported accusations and show an remarkable ignorance about the issues.

I would love to explain to you the importance of the work of the ACLU and the idea that civil rights must be protected for *all*, not just the popular. I don't think you would understand or listen or even care - you have your dogma and don't need to listen to other viewpoints or ideas.

(I don't think you will read this, you probably won't think about it and you certainly won't understand it. But, saying "the UN is not doing a good job" is a lot different then saying "the UN is a crock".)

I gave you the chance to show that you aren't a narrow ultra-conservative extremist. But, well you sure showed me didn't you.

But seeing as you are clearly in the majority here... I will leave quietly.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Any chance you are going to get to my post at some point?

Good luck, Frank. I responded point-by-point to her initial post, and I'm still waiting for a reply.

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Myth of "Separation of Church and State"

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