0
   

Myth of "Separation of Church and State"

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 01:04 pm
southerngrl wrote:
Don't blame the South for slavery. We didn't start it...


Quite right, Southerngrl.

I can PROVE that -- and offering to "prove" something is not an expression I use often or lightly.

Here -- let me show you:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves."

That, SG, is a quote from that Bible book you've been mentioning. Leviticus 25:44ff to be exact.

So you are correct. Slavery cannot be blamed on the American south. The god of the Bible beat our southern brothers and sisters to the punch.

Quote:
The Southern and Northern citizens all knew that slavery would end eventually. It was a fact of the times, accepted by all...


Ahhh...and when do you suppose the south figured would be a more acceptable time? Perhaps in the 26th century?




Bigotry comes in all forms, SG.

Some people practice it against race; some against ethnic background; some against sex -- and who knows what else all.

You apparently practice it against those of us who realize religion is a net negative for society -- rather than the huge positive folks like you like to pretend it is.



And for what it is worth, there is nothing so sleazy as hiding the kind of bigotry, narrow-mindedness and hatred that engenders the kind of mindset you exhibit -- behind a pretence of intellectualism, reason, and fact-based research.



By the way, in response to Piffka's "Southern Girl, you need to get out more. Have you never heard of Lord Buddha?"...

...you wrote:

Quote:
You've got to be kidding me? You honestly think that's what Lord they were referring to?


Piffka's response was in reply to your comment:

Quote:
The Constitution's last line is "in the year of our Lord"... That just proves to me that they were Christians. I don't hear "Lord" in any religion other than Christianity


As I said earlier, that is an absurd statement.

And when you make an absurd statement -- and someone posts a reasonable reply -- you really shouldn't change the parameters by pretending you meant something else. People might get the impression that you are untrustworthy.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 01:41 pm
Southern Girl,

Here is the crux on our little disagreement. As you said...

"[The Confederate Battle Standard] stands for those who fought to keep our gov't from becoming what it has today."

I agree completely. And that is why I find it offensive. In spite of your best efforts our nation has become a thriving democracy that strives for equality, respects liberty and protects the rights of all.

I am very proud of what my nation and my government has become. (That is with a lower case 'g', i.e our system of goverment which takes into account my disappointment with the current adminstration).

The confederate battle standard harks back to a time where murder of non-white was accepted and encouraged by society. Where everyone was forced to be Christian and anyone who questioned this was severly (and brutally) opposed. Where ideas were severly censored, and society was separated based on race.

I am very proud of our progress since this time.

I am proud that America is now a country of ALL people, not just the white Christian ones. I am proud that we teach science in the schools that is based on reason and study, not on *one* viewpoint based on *one* religion.

I am proud that we have almost completely ended the practice of lynching.

I am proud that we have freedom of speech and expression without fear of violence.

I am glad that I was able to marry the woman that I love in spite of the fact that she is a different race.

I am glad that your religious ideas can't keep my kids from learning modern science.

Need I go on.....

Our country has come a long way since the 19th century. You may want to go back to this time of barbarism bigotry and cruelty.

Of course, there has always been a lot of great things about the US - freedom of religion for example. It's just that your nasty little flag represents the very worst of our history.

I cherish the liberty, justice and tolerance that we have worked so hard to achieve.
0 Replies
 
southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 01:54 pm
Quote:
"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves."

That, SG, is a quote from that Bible book you've been mentioning. Leviticus 25:44ff to be exact.


Ridiculous. There were slaves in Hebrew days... It was a fact of life. I have no desire to own slaves, thank you.

Quote:
So you are correct. Slavery cannot be blamed on the American south. The god of the Bible beat our southern brothers and sisters to the punch.


Try finding that in the New Testament in the day of Jesus Christ. Which is the values we are to live by today.

Quote:
Ahhh...and when do you suppose the south figured would be a more acceptable time? Perhaps in the 26th century?


No, it was on the way out at the time of the war anyway.

Quote:
Bigotry comes in all forms, SG.


Look...I am not a bigot...I am a Christian, Southern American. It's funny how people who disagree with us can only defend their beliefs by putting un-founded labels on us. However, the Bible did say we would be persecuted for righteousness sake...so we're used to.

Quote:
You apparently practice it against those of us who realize religion is a net negative for society -- rather than the huge positive folks like you like to pretend it is.


It wasn't a negative for our FF's and it wasn't a negative until people started fighting against it and making it negative. There is nothing negative about a moral society.

Quote:
And for what it is worth, there is nothing so sleazy as hiding the kind of bigotry, narrow-mindedness and hatred that engenders the kind of mindset you exhibit -- behind a pretence of intellectualism, reason, and fact-based research.


Truth hurts. And I hate no one. Plus, the majority of Americans feel the same way I do. You're putting a label on me that is totally 100% contradictory of who I am.

Quote:
The Constitution's last line is "in the year of our Lord"... That just proves to me that they were Christians. I don't hear "Lord" in any religion other than Christianity

As I said earlier, that is an absurd statement.

And when you make an absurd statement -- and someone posts a reasonable reply -- you really shouldn't change the parameters by pretending you meant something else. People might get the impression that you are untrustworthy.


What the heck are you talking about? I was trying to show that the word "Lord" IS in our Constitution...the subject was a whether the FF's represented the "Christian" religion. She made a statement as to whether I have heard of Lord Buddha...incinuating the FF's could have been talking about him! I only said that's ridiculous. Take time to read the quotes I posted from our FF's. They are pretty self-explanatory.

By the way, none of my post reflect any anymosity or attitude that could be misconstrued as hateful or bigoted. However, I can say after reading the opposing views, that the same can't be said for them. Why would someone attack another person for having different views? That is what is frustrating. I think it is sad that a minority of Americans want to change the history of this country and the Constitution. It was based on something great...that is why we are facing the death of this country.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 02:26 pm
Righteousness???? What righteousness are you standing for?

Death of the country? What the heck are you speaking of??

Majority of Americans? Are you out of your mind????

The United States *is* based on something great! Not "was" -- it *is*!

The Constitution says (and has said for more than 150 years) that we are *not* a Christian nation and the majority of us believe this is a darn good thing.

You have the right to practice and believe your own religion -- even the bigoted hateful parts of it. But we have the right to practice ours, be it Islam or Buddhism or Lord Krishna. It doesn't matter.

The majority of Americans love our country. The majority of us feel that it is doing pretty darn well in spite of our problems and occasional disagreements. The majority of us cherish our liberty that you are so opposed to.

We are not attacking you for having "different views". We are attacking you because your views go against everyting that America stands for.

Some people want to get rid of the "under God". You are trying to get rid of "... with Liberty and Justice for all."
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 02:32 pm
southerngrl wrote:
Piffka wrote:
Have you never heard of Lord Buddha?


You've got to be kidding me? You honestly think that's what Lord they were referring to?


No. I'm not trying to kid you, I could have a lot more fun if I were. And no, I don't think they were referring to the Lord Buddha. I think they were referring to a deity, probably the deity that the Deists and the Christians and the non-believers were willing to agree on. If it were Jesus, I'm sure they'd had said it quite clearly, Lord Jesus Christ. Since they didn't, your premise is so shaky that you are needing to change the subject and copy loads and loads of stuff. Just write, don't copy, please. If you must copy and paste, please give us your citation. But please don't copy. Just use the URL button and we can get to your website.

Why do you feel the need to put words into the Constitution that aren't there?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 02:33 pm
southerngrl wrote:
Quote:
So you are correct. Slavery cannot be blamed on the American south. The god of the Bible beat our southern brothers and sisters to the punch.


Try finding that in the New Testament in the day of Jesus Christ. Which is the values we are to live by today.


Sure thing. No problem at all.


At 1 Timothy 6:1ff, St. Paul says:

"All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...Those slaves whose masters are brothers in the faith must not take liberties with them on that account. they must perform their tasks even more faithfully, since those who will profit from their work are believers and beloved brothers."

At Colossians 3:22, St. Paul says:

"To slaves I say, obey your human masters perfectly, not with the purpose of attracting attention and pleasing men, but in all sincerity and our of reverence for the Lord."

At Colossians 4:1, St. Paul says:

"You slave owners, deal justly and fairly with your slaves..."

At Titus 2:9, St. Paul says:

"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters. They should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior."

At 1 Corinthians 7:17ff, St. Paul says:

"The general rule is that each one should lead the life the Lord has assigned him, continuing as he was when the Lord called him...Were you a slave when your call came? Give it no thought. Even supposing you could go free, you would be better off making the most of your slavery...."

At Philemon, Paul returns a slave (Onesimus) to his master (Philemon) and tells Philemon that although he )Paul) feels he has the right to command Philemon to free Onesimus, he would not do that, but would instead appeal to Philemon to do it on his own.


Quote:
Quote:
Ahhh...and when do you suppose the south figured would be a more acceptable time? Perhaps in the 26th century?


No, it was on the way out at the time of the war anyway.



Sure it was! Ever hear of revisionist history?


Quote:
Quote:
You apparently practice it against those of us who realize religion is a net negative for society -- rather than the huge positive folks like you like to pretend it is.


It wasn't a negative for our FF's and it wasn't a negative until people started fighting against it and making it negative. There is nothing negative about a moral society.


Religion was a negative in this country long before the founding fathers ever set about calling for our independence, SG. Salem witch trials, for instance. And the justification for the initial slavery came from religion. (Refer to my earlier post)

Try to stay focused.

Quote:
Quote:
And for what it is worth, there is nothing so sleazy as hiding the kind of bigotry, narrow-mindedness and hatred that engenders the kind of mindset you exhibit -- behind a pretence of intellectualism, reason, and fact-based research.


Truth hurts. And I hate no one. Plus, the majority of Americans feel the same way I do.


My guess is that you don't have any idea of how the majority of Americans feel. And my hope is that no where near a majority think the way you do.



Quote:
You're putting a label on me that is totally 100% contradictory of who I am.


Perhaps that is correct -- and I acknowledge that. The only thing I have to work with is this post -- and it may be throwing me off. But this post indicates that I am probably closer to the truth about you than you are about you.




Quote:
Quote:
The Constitution's last line is "in the year of our Lord"... That just proves to me that they were Christians. I don't hear "Lord" in any religion other than Christianity

As I said earlier, that is an absurd statement.

And when you make an absurd statement -- and someone posts a reasonable reply -- you really shouldn't change the parameters by pretending you meant something else. People might get the impression that you are untrustworthy.


What the heck are you talking about? I was trying to show that the word "Lord" IS in our Constitution...the subject was a whether the FF's represented the "Christian" religion. She made a statement as to whether I have heard of Lord Buddha...incinuating the FF's could have been talking about him! I only said that's ridiculous. Take time to read the quotes I posted from our FF's. They are pretty self-explanatory.


If that is what you were trying to do, SG, I would suggest you proofread your posts more carefully before posting.

Your exact words were:
Quote:
I don't hear "Lord" in any religion other than Christianity.


Piffka called your attention to the fact that Buddhists use "Lord" -- and, if this has escaped your notice, so do Jews.

Your statement "I don't hear "Lord" in any religion other than Christianity"...

...is absurd -- as I have now mentioned three times.

You can try to do a revision on these things, but keep in mind that we've got it all here in black, blue, and white.



Quote:
By the way, none of my post reflect any anymosity or attitude that could be misconstrued as hateful or bigoted.


Like hell it couldn't.



Quote:
However, I can say after reading the opposing views, that the same can't be said for them. Why would someone attack another person for having different views? That is what is frustrating. I think it is sad that a minority of Americans want to change the history of this country and the Constitution. It was based on something great...that is why we are facing the death of this country.


Good grief. Such drama!

We are not facing the death of this country.

Try to be more optimistic. I know you religious fanatics are an especially pessimistic lot, but you really gotta lighten up. Things ain't as bad as your gods want you to think.

In any case, you are correct that we should limit ourselves to attacking your ideas -- which I see as corrupting -- and not to attack you personally.

I'm happy you are here -- and sharing your thoughts, even though I feel so strongly antagonistic to them.

Keep posting.

We'll keep rebutting.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 02:41 pm
I suppose southerngrl is still formulating her response to my post.
0 Replies
 
southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 02:43 pm
Quote:

"The Confederate Battle Standard] stands for those who fought to keep our gov't from becoming what it has today."

I agree completely. And that is why I find it offensive. In spite of your best efforts our nation has become a thriving democracy that strives for equality, respects liberty and protects the rights of all.


Wrong...everyday our equality (ACLU, NAACP...) liberty and freedoms are being taken away. We actually agree in what we want...however, I see how it's not going to be what we actually get in the end.

Quote:
I am very proud of what my nation and my government has become. (That is with a lower case 'g', i.e our system of goverment which takes into account my disappointment with the current adminstration).


I'm not happy with the current administration either, because our borders are still open and the gov't keeps spending. I do though, cringe at the thought of Gore or any of the Democratic runners being in the White House. I guess we have the lesser of two evils. I don't believe you will be happy when America becomes a third world nation, though.

Quote:
The confederate battle standard harks back to a time where murder of non-white was accepted and encouraged by society. Where everyone was forced to be Christian and anyone who questioned this was severly (and brutally) opposed. Where ideas were severly censored, and society was separated based on race.


The confederate battle flag had absolutely nothing to do with murder. We were at war...and the Southerners were murdered in droves right along with Northerners. Read the link I posted. Although that is what incorrectly is portrayed, nothing is farther from the truth...and to find the truth, you just have to dig a little deeper, because the truth would dispute what has been drilled in our heads.

Quote:
I am very proud of our progress since this time.


I'm glad you are. I am not. That's what makes us Americans. I'm just glad I am on the side of the majority, it verifies our tradition.

Quote:
I am proud that America is now a country of ALL people, not just the white Christian ones. I am proud that we teach science in the schools that is based on reason and study, not on *one* viewpoint based on *one* religion.


Science is nice. If they would only stick to that instead of condoms, HIV, and objectionable material.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 02:50 pm
Quote:
The latest poll shows that 92% of Americans believe in God. Why change our country for 8% of the people?


So they believe in God. Good for them. The Constitution was designed to include ALL people, not only those in the majority!
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 03:13 pm
There are people who both believe in God *and* love their country.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 03:21 pm
There are also people who don't believe in God, and are intensely patriotic!
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 03:30 pm
Amen Phoenix!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 03:33 pm
southerngrl wrote:
Wrong...everyday our equality (ACLU, NAACP...) liberty and freedoms are being taken away. We actually agree in what we want...however, I see how it's not going to be what we actually get in the end.



What does that mean?

That paragraph is almost incomprehensible.

Are you suggesting that the ACLU and NAACP are endangering our equality -- or or liberty and freedoms?

You need to revise that paragraph so it can be understood.


But to be honest with you -- this thread looks to me to be little more than a right wing screed.

Frankly, SG, if you are truly concerned about our freedoms -- or liberty -- and about equality -- you might consider this: There are very few things that pose a greater danger to this Republic -- and to those institutions -- than the far right.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2003 03:39 pm
And are you saying that God doesn't want me to use condoms?
0 Replies
 
southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 01:47 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Righteousness???? What righteousness are you standing for?

Death of the country? What the heck are you speaking of??


Stop twisting what I say around. The country is dying because of the Liberals and Special Interest groups, along with corrupt politicians. I am a people for the people...states rights, etc... If you read my post correctly, you will know I am the one fighting against the death of this country. And will continue to.

Quote:
Majority of Americans? Are you out of your mind????


No, don't think so...there are (always have been) more conservative type ideologies in America. Years ago, even the Democrats had some scrupples, however, they now pander for the vote by de-moralizing the U.S. I still believe and see all around me more conservatism than liberalism.

Quote:
The United States *is* based on something great! Not "was" -- it *is*!


I do believe this is your opinion, however, mine is *was*, as I see the moral decline of our Constitution, our freedom and liberties as they were meant to be. Perfect example, judges making laws that are against the people, instead of upholding the Constitution as it was written. Affirmative Action being one example.

Quote:
The Constitution says (and has said for more than 150 years) that we are *not* a Christian nation and the majority of us believe this is a darn good thing.


Christian isn't mentioned anywhere in the Constitution, however, it does state "but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." In other words, you won't be required to profess Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc...

Quote:
You have the right to practice and believe your own religion -- even the bigoted hateful parts of it. But we have the right to practice ours, be it Islam or Buddhism or Lord Krishna. It doesn't matter.


Although my beliefs are not hateful, they are considered that by those who disagree. And I could care less what religion anyone practices. See, you really don't know me.

Quote:
The majority of Americans love our country. The majority of us feel that it is doing pretty darn well in spite of our problems and occasional disagreements. The majority of us cherish our liberty that you are so opposed to.


Our liberty is what is being taken away. Slowly but surely. You have this notion that everything is wonderful, our government's goals are in our best interest, politicians are honest and trustworthy people, America is great. Well, it used to be greater...and soon it will be less-great. I have researched this subject and there are many disturbing things that we are all aware of but are afraid to mention or fight for.

Little did our forefathers know the extent to what their earnest effort court go astray in this time. There are a largely growing number of Americans, shocked at the loss of our liberties and hard-earned money...wondering how Big Gov't could have gained the control over us that they have. We are not as free as our forefathers were. We aren't enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination. Many of our current laws are written by bureaucrats, administered and judged by them. Yet they are opposed to those freedoms set in our Constitution.

-Racial quotas
-Gun control
-Forced busing
-Crime
-Intrusive Federal Regulations
-Trillions in Federal Dept
-Tax & Spend Federalism
-Unfunded Federal Mandates
-Liberal attacks against our civilization and history
-HUD projects in middle-class neighborhoods
-Socialized medicine
-Anti-middle class liberal media
-Attacks upon family values
-Mob rule at voting booths
-Federal gov't assault on free speech
-Activist Supreme Court
-Political Correctness
-Arrogance of Power

Just to name a few.

Quote:
We are not attacking you for having "different views". We are attacking you because your views go against everyting that America stands for.


Either you are blind or just like to insult people. I AM THE ONE WHO IS MOST PASSIONATE ABOUT RETURNING OUR MORALS, VALUES, LIBERTIES and GOD-GIVEN FREEDOMS TO AMERICA. I am fighting, and will continue to fight for it, because I love it and respect it. My heart is the one broken at the way its changing for the worst.

Quote:
Some people want to get rid of the "under God". You are trying to get rid of "... with Liberty and Justice for all."


Again, wrong. There is no reason to get rid of under God, because in all honesty, He is the one who made us great...and the Christian people who founded this country. When you ask Him to leave, He could very well do it, then you will see the end results of what is happening right in front of your eyes now. God offends no one...it is a crutch being used by the left in order to assure their Third World country ideology and agenda. Wake up people. Do the research. You will be shocked and afraid at what you find.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 01:51 pm
Shocked
0 Replies
 
southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 02:08 pm
Quote:
Sure thing. No problem at all.


At 1 Timothy 6:1ff, St. Paul says:

"All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...Those slaves whose masters are brothers in the faith must not take liberties with them on that account. they must perform their tasks even more faithfully, since those who will profit from their work are believers and beloved brothers."

At Colossians 3:22, St. Paul says:

"To slaves I say, obey your human masters perfectly, not with the purpose of attracting attention and pleasing men, but in all sincerity and our of reverence for the Lord."

At Colossians 4:1, St. Paul says:

"You slave owners, deal justly and fairly with your slaves..."

At Titus 2:9, St. Paul says:

"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters. They should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior."

At 1 Corinthians 7:17ff, St. Paul says:

"The general rule is that each one should lead the life the Lord has assigned him, continuing as he was when the Lord called him...Were you a slave when your call came? Give it no thought. Even supposing you could go free, you would be better off making the most of your slavery...."

At Philemon, Paul returns a slave (Onesimus) to his master (Philemon) and tells Philemon that although he )Paul) feels he has the right to command Philemon to free Onesimus, he would not do that, but would instead appeal to Philemon to do it on his own.


Touche'! But isn't it wonderful that the progression of this Earth has been full of good people who oppose that philosophy? Now can we get on with bigger and better things, like saving our country?

Quote:
Quote:
No, it was on the way out at the time of the war anyway.


Sure it was! Ever hear of revisionist history?


There is plenty, I mean plenty of documentation, both on the North and South side who disagreed with slavery. Like I said, Virginia (Southern state and home of R. E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, A. P. Hill, etc...) was the first state to attempt to ABOLISH slavery.

Quote:
Religion was a negative in this country long before the founding fathers ever set about calling for our independence, SG. Salem witch trials, for instance. And the justification for the initial slavery came from religion. (Refer to my earlier post)


How can you say that? Really? It's the reason we formed this country!! Remember that British incident, right? Religion was the moral code behind our Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and our laws of this country!

Quote:
Try to stay focused.


I would have to say the same for you. The more people who do stay focused, the better we can fight to save ourselves.

Quote:
My guess is that you don't have any idea of how the majority of Americans feel. And my hope is that no where near a majority think the way you do.


You'd better hope they do...plus, I see it and hear it on the news constantly...those who love and care about this country are getting fighting mad...the movement is growing in leaps and bounds. THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN! And it will be for the same reason we rose last time. High tariffs, states rights, limited Federal Government.

Quote:
You can try to do a revision on these things, but keep in mind that we've got it all here in black, blue, and white.


OK...Lord is used in other terminology, however, the terminology our FF's used it in would be synonymous with Jesus Christ. That was my only point.

Quote:
Like hell it couldn't.


How are my beliefs, researched to the hilt, be hateful or bigoted just because they are in contract to yours? I hate no one...and none of my post express hatred toward any race, religion or sexual orientation. That's the definition of bigoted, correct?

Quote:
Good grief. Such drama!


Or as I would call it...passion.

Quote:
We are not facing the death of this country.


Oh, but yes we are, dear.

Quote:
Try to be more optimistic. I know you religious fanatics are an especially pessimistic lot, but you really gotta lighten up. Things ain't as bad as your gods want you to think.


I pray for positive optimism every day...then I turn on the TV and see Jeb Bush refuse to help an innocent woman from dying a slow tortuous starvation death for no reason. Something we wouldn't do to our dog. I'll see us giving illegal immigrants a driver's license to ensure a good voting turnout right at the time we are fighting a war on terror. I'll see senators who refuse to appoint a judge, just because he holds conservative views. I see our borders wide open where terrorist can just walk in and kill us. I see the Patriot Act, perfect example of taking away liberties. I see colleges who rule that you can't look at a girl wrong, and a socialistic education system that thinks they should teach my child about how to have sex and offer them an abortion without my consent. I could go on and on.

Quote:
I'm happy you are here -- and sharing your thoughts, even though I feel so strongly antagonistic to them.


Once you get to know me...you will like me. Laughing
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 04:27 pm
southerngrl wrote:

-Racial quotas
-Gun control
-Forced busing
-Crime
-Intrusive Federal Regulations
-Trillions in Federal Dept
-Tax & Spend Federalism
-Unfunded Federal Mandates
-Liberal attacks against our civilization and history
-HUD projects in middle-class neighborhoods
-Socialized medicine
-Anti-middle class liberal media
-Attacks upon family values
-Mob rule at voting booths
-Federal gov't assault on free speech
-Activist Supreme Court
-Political Correctness
-Arrogance of Power



This list is ridiculous - especially when you look at where we came from...

- Slavery.
- Forced Segregation.
- Lynchings.
- Women and Minorities without the right to vote.
- Large forced migrations of ingidinous populations.
- The Alien and Sedition Act

Not only that, the crime rate is going down and Free Speech rights were flourishing until 9/11. Americans are still fighting the latest problems with free speech, and I am very encouraged by the reaction of the country.

southerngrl wrote:

"I AM THE ONE WHO IS MOST PASSIONATE ABOUT RETURNING OUR MORALS, VALUES, LIBERTIES and GOD-GIVEN FREEDOMS TO AMERICA. I am fighting, and will continue to fight for it, because I love it and respect it. My heart is the one broken at the way its changing for the worst."


Your values are decidedly Un-American.

The religion of the founders is quite unimportant. The fact is they left us with a Constitution and a Bill of Rights that were Secular. Their values were not bound to a narrow-minded fanatical relgious view. They respected *liberty*.

We now have a society that with more liberty than ever . Based on these very American Values we the people have decided that...

- A decent public education should be available to all in spite of peoples fear and hatred. Forced bussing, although controversial at the time, proved to be a stunning American success story to anyone who believes in justice.

- Every American can choose to express their sexuality in the privacy of the bedrooms without the prying eyes of prudish neighbots.

- Americans have the right to decent healthcare and financial security.

- No one should be locked out of the American dream because of the color of their skin.

- Public policy is not based on religious beliefs.

- Groups like the ACLU who vigilantly protect your right to display Confederate flags or Nazi swatstikas in spite of the fact that they represent a past of hatred and fear.

My dear southerngrl, These are American Values. Liberty and justice for all. The right to the persuit of happiness. They are the core of our values and most Americans cherish them.

I feel your pain. You are holding on to old-fashioned values based on an America that never existed.

But you see Liberty and Justice are at the core of what it means to be an American.

Liberty means that I can choose my own path in my persuit of happiness. I am free to be gay or straight. I am free to live where I like in spite of my race. I am free to read what I like even if you think it is "objectional"

Justice means that I am treated the same under the law as every other American. It doesn't matter whether I am Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Animist or Atheist. Justice means I am not disadvantaged by my race or culture, I am ensured a fair shot at the American Dream.

America has *secular* laws that are made by elected officials protected by a Constitution. This is the Government of our Nation and it is working pretty well. (Incidently the 10 Commandments are not part of American Law God damn it!)

When you rant about how bad our Country is, you are saying you are opposed to the Values of America. We will continue forward as the America that is - even as you preach the America that never was.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 04:43 pm
To change the subject a bit...


I have always been a bit curious about this -- Why are Christians so uptight about their guns.

Jesus was quite clear about violence and vengence. Just read these passages...

Matt 5 (NIV)
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[7] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Romans
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Given the sentiments of these two passages and others...

What do Christians need guns for?
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 05:08 pm
Quote:
There is no reason to get rid of under God, because in all honesty, He is the one who made us great...and the Christian people who founded this country. When you ask Him to leave, He could very well do it, then you will see the end results of what is happening right in front of your eyes now. God offends no one...it is a crutch being used by the left in order to assure their Third World country ideology and agenda. Wake up people. Do the research. You will be shocked and afraid at what you find.


Actually, having to speak "...under one god..." offends me. So, there ya have it, you're wrong. But, I suppose it's not your god who offends me, it's the people who interpret the words attributed to him who offend me.
0 Replies
 
 

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