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Myth of "Separation of Church and State"

 
 
fealola
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 05:42 pm
My two cents:


Quote:
No, not become...go back to. The Pilgrims put a cross up when they arrived here...and started school for the sole purpose of teaching children to read the Bible.


Go back to non-denominational Christianity like the Pilgrims? Some of us (probably most of us) aren't descended from the Pilgrims. Some of us were here before them. So how can we go back to the Pilgrims?


Quote:
Good question. Take yourself back to their time when Christianity was the ONLY religion practiced here! There were no Muslims or Buddhist or Scientologist then.


What about the religions of the Africans and Indiginous People. (Oh, yeah they werent citizens or people.) What about the Pagans?
0 Replies
 
fealola
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 05:57 pm
By the way:

1530--African slaves arrive in America. During the slave trade, more than 10 million Africans were uprooted from their homes and brought to American shores. Many of these slaves were from the Fulas, Fula Jallon, Fula Toro, and Massiona as well as other areas of West Africa. These areas were governed from their capital, "Timbuctu." These slaves were sent to Mexico, Cuba, and South America. More than 30 percent of these 10 million slaves were Muslim. They became the backbone of the American economy.

1807
Yarrow Mamout, an African Muslim slave, is set free in Washington DC, and later becomes one of the first shareholders of the second chartered bank in America, the Columbia Bank. Yarrow may have lived to be more than 128 years old, the oldest person in American history. Two portraits of Yarrow done by well known artists are on public display. The first, painted by Charles W. Peal in 1819 was done when Yarrow was 100 years old. It hangs in the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. A second portrait completed by James Simpson in 1828, almost a decade later, can be seen in the Peabody Room at the Georgetown Public Library, Washington DC. 

1809
Al Haj Umar ibn Sayyid is enslaved in Charleston after running away. In jail, he is visited by John Owen and taken to Blade County and placed on the Owen plantation. John Owen later became Governor of North Carolina. It has been reported that Umar lived to be 100 years old. 

1828
Abdulrahman Ibrahim Ibn Sori, a former prince from West Africa and now a salve on a Georgia plantation, is freed by the order of Secretary of State Henry Clay and President John Quincy Adams. He was known to many during his lifetime as "The Prince of Slaves." A drawing of him, done by Henry Inman, is displayed in the Library of Congress. His life has also been well-documented. 

1856
The United States cavalry hire a Muslim by the name of Hajji Ali to experiment with raising camels in Arizona.  

Just a historical footnote from and there's plenty more:

http://www.islam101.com/history/muslim_us_hist.html
0 Replies
 
fealola
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 06:19 pm
Oops. How could I forget about these guys Rolling Eyes :

1654
The first Jewish immigrants arrive in New Amsterdam, the future New York
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southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 08:00 am
Quote:
To change the subject a bit...


I have always been a bit curious about this -- Why are Christians so uptight about their guns.
Quote:


For one thing, my Christian husband loves to hunt. And secondly, to protect ourselves from criminals and eventually, our own government.

Quote:
Matt 5 (NIV)
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[7] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.


That's real good...someone who totally disputes God and religion quoting Scripture! It doesn't get any better than that. Speaking in parables was one of Jesus' ways of promoting peace. However, you also have to understand that He trashed the temple because evil was using it to their own benefit.

Quote:
Romans
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.


Except some Americans are trying to remove Him. "There is no authority except that which God has established." You made my point. When authority becomes corrupt, we must stand up and defend it. Don't try to tell me that God would want us removing His own name from our pledge, or our schools or public places. I'm pretty sure He wouldn't.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 08:05 am
I would say that in Southerngrl we have another infiltrator from the religious crackpot fringe, looking for a place to dump off her hare-brained screed, and pick a fight with "the enemy." To attempt to argue this nonsense point by point is futile, she's not listening, and she only wants to rant, chant and puke up the gospel according to herself. All of us here waste our time in trying to convince her of anything.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 09:37 am
Southerngrl, For the record, I have a knowledge of and respect for the Bible. I am not a Christian, but saying I "dispute" God and religion is incorrect.

I am disputing *your* values. I have said before that they are Unamerican, but if you think about it your values are also Unchristian.

The words of Christ "Do not resist the evil person" are pretty clear. They are also backed up by the life of Jesus as told in the Gospels. Jesus did not resist when he was taken and killed by Roman soldiers. If you read the Bible - you should also see the examples of the early christians as told in Acts, and the exhortations to live a good life in the letters.

As far as the government -- the words and example of Jesus are also quite clear. At the time the New Testatment was written, they were living under imperial Rome. Even you will have to admit that Imperial Rome was worse than America.

Yet, Jesus did not call for rebellion. He did not rail against laws. He did call for people to "love each other" and to "give to the poor". His message seems quite a bit different than yours.

The issues you seem to hate about America are exactly the issues that the biblical Jesus - were he alive - would be trying to bring about.

You are opposed to integration. Jesus specifically broke social barriers with Samaritans. The Apostle Paul was very clear "there is no Jew, there is no Greek...".

You are opposed to providing welfare and medical help to the poor. Jesus told some of his followers "Sell your goods and give to the poor".

Jesus and the Apostle Paul both said that Christians would willingly give Taxes (Romans 13 for example).

Your views are opposed to the teachings of Jesus in many respects -- immigration, crime etc. etc. etc.

Southrngrl. I am not opposed to Christianity or religion. Christianity has clearly had an important and beneficial role in our history. (This does not mean that our government or laws are based on the Bible). I would give the Civil Rights movement as an example.

I am specifically opposed to *your* views. They are both Unamerican and Unchristian.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 10:48 am
Excellent post, Eric.
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fealola
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 10:53 am
Why did you change the subject after my post, southern?
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kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 06:56 am
Fascinating to read. I haven't got to the end and will do so before I make a real comment.

KP
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southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 08:41 am
Quote:
Southerngrl, For the record, I have a knowledge of and respect for the Bible. I am not a Christian, but saying I "dispute" God and religion is incorrect.

I am disputing *your* values. I have said before that they are Unamerican, but if you think about it your values are also Unchristian.


There is nothing more American or Patriotic than questioning your gov't when you see it is becoming corrupt. However, your opinion is yours, just as mine is mine.

Quote:
The words of Christ "Do not resist the evil person" are pretty clear.


So should we embrace the Wahhabi sect of the Islam religion? And let them enhialate us from the Earth? In other words, after 9/11, we should have turned the other cheek?

Quote:
Yet, Jesus did not call for rebellion. He did not rail against laws. He did call for people to "love each other" and to "give to the poor". His message seems quite a bit different than yours.


Matthew 14:31 - Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?

Matthew 10:34 - Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth, I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Matthew 14:22 - And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Quote:
The issues you seem to hate about America are exactly the issues that the biblical Jesus - were he alive - would be trying to bring about.


Quote:
You are opposed to integration.


WHAT? Where did I say that??? I believe all people are children of God, however, many do not choose the way He planned for us. I don't hate those people, I pray for them.

Quote:
You are opposed to providing welfare and medical help to the poor. Jesus told some of his followers "Sell your goods and give to the poor".


I, as a Christian, have that responsibility, which I practice personally. It is not up to our government to provide a substantial income for those who are too lazy or uneducated to live on at the expense of those who work everyday to provide for their families with less than what the welfare recipients get! If anything, it should be a temporary situation...not promoted and encouraged.

Quote:
Jesus and the Apostle Paul both said that Christians would willingly give Taxes (Romans 13 for example).


Yes, give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is Gods.

Quote:
Your views are opposed to the teachings of Jesus in many respects -- immigration, crime etc. etc. etc.


I don't have a problem with "immigration", my ancestors were immigrants. I have a problem with "illegal immigration" and giving them special priviledges that we, as Americans, do not get. Why have immigration laws if you are going to let anyone just come in and vote as to how THEY want out country to be and not have to be a citizen.?

Quote:
I am specifically opposed to *your* views. They are both Unamerican and Unchristian.


See above. There is nothing MORE Christian and American as to question the ideologies that will ruin either one of them.
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southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 08:49 am
Setanta wrote:
I would say that in Southerngrl we have another infiltrator from the religious crackpot fringe, looking for a place to dump off her hare-brained screed, and pick a fight with "the enemy." To attempt to argue this nonsense point by point is futile, she's not listening, and she only wants to rant, chant and puke up the gospel according to herself. All of us here waste our time in trying to convince her of anything.


Whatever. I face this all the time in that I won't compromise my principles to accomodate what a minority of the people think. I am not the enemy, that is the fanatical Islamist and the extreme leftist Liberal. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating my views. Why would you come across with a hateful attitude just because we may not agree on important issues? I love debate, but work very hard not to offend anyone personally.
0 Replies
 
southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 08:53 am
Some interesting facts about slavery during 1860's and before.

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/28/albenson.htm
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 08:53 am
If any of that lying self-promotion on your part were true, you would have no reason to be here. My attitude is not hateful, it is a product of the disgust religious fanatics such as you--no different from the muslim fundamentalists--inspire in me.
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southerngrl
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 08:59 am
That is a very shallow statement. Calling me a liar, when you have no idea whether it is or not? First of all, I do not lie. Putting Christians, true Christians, not the abortion clinic bombers, in the same category as the fanatical Muslim is not only unfair, but unwarranted. I guess it just makes people feel superior to put down something they don't like.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 09:06 am
Southerngrl wrote:
I face this all the time in that I won't compromise my principles to accomodate what a minority of the people think.


You have no basis upon which to state that the objection to religion in government is a minority opinion, therefore your statement is a lie.

Quote:
I am not the enemy, that is the fanatical Islamist and the extreme leftist Liberal.


You are just as extremist, and just as dangerous as the "fanatical Islamist and the extreme leftist Liberal." If either religious extremism or political extremism (both of which you have displayed here) make those people enemies, they make you the enemy. Therefore, you have once again lied.

Quote:
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating my views.


If that were true, how would you account for the amount of time and energy you have put into trying to make your case here? You want very much to convert others to your crackpot religious beliefs. Therefore, you have once again lied.

Quote:
Putting Christians, true Christians, not the abortion clinic bombers, in the same category as the fanatical Muslim is not only unfair, but unwarranted.


Oh, is that so? And how are we to determine who the "true Christians" are? By asking you? By comparing the beliefs in Christianity they hold to yours? EBrown_p has very thoroughly demonstrated that your message is not necessarily consonant with the Christian views of everyone. Are we to believe then that EBrown_p is not a true Christian, but that you are? You're the hateful one here, you're trying to shove your beliefs down the throats of others, and given the chance, you would enshrine them in law. You are the dangerous ones, and you threaten our ancient liberties far more than any muslim terrorists, because you live here.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 09:29 am
southerngrl wrote:
It is not up to our government to provide a substantial income for those who are too lazy or uneducated to live on at the expense of those who work everyday to provide for their families with less than what the welfare recipients get!


Ahhh, but if we were a Christian nation, then it would be up to the government to provide substantially for the poor and act in many other ways that it doesn't. And no Christian would be so judgemental, either. (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)

You can't have it both ways.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 09:49 am
Christian means (or should mean) "like Christ".

In the Bible Jesus taught love, forgiveness and compassion. He spent his life with the poor and oppressed. He ate with sinners and Samaritans. His only political act was to stop the capital punishment of a prostitute.

Jesus did not worry that immigration laws weren't being enforced. Jesus did not rail against "the welfare state". Jesus did not worry if people prayed before gladitorial combat, or if the name of God was in the forum. Jesus wasn't concerned about what was in science books or history books. Jesus wanted people to "love your neighbor as yourself".

Likewise, true christians today will do the same. Christians concern themselves with loving their neighbors, and helping the poor. Jesus would not spend his time yelling about the United Nations or trying to change how slavery is portrayed in textbooks, and neither would a true Christian.

I looked at that silly website you are promoting. The fact it takes a page explaining why they are *not* like the KKK should tell you something.

But the very idea behind the Southern Heritage movement is silly. You really think that God who calls us to love and care for all people is concerned that we shut out immigrants to protect American jobs?

The Jesus who calls us to "give to everyone who has needs" and "put the needs of others above your own" is concerned that southerngrl's taxes might be used to help someone who is lazy?

Southerngrl, I don't think that God - the Ruler and Creator of the Universe- would care if a plaque of 10 commandments is in a courtroom in a small state in 2003.

I do think that the God of all Love cares that people are treated with decency and respect regardless of where they are born, the color of their skin or the amount of money they have.

I am certain that a true Christian would not promote a flag which (at least for many -- including Christians) represents anger, fear and hatred.

To paraphrase Mr. Reagan:

"Southerngrl - TAKE DOWN THAT AVATAR!"

Putting the name of Jesus on a symbol of backwards hate is far worse than not allowing it in schools.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 09:55 am
Southerngrl,

Also just to clarify things - the term "integration" means that Black people and White people (and other races) are together.

The opposite of integration is segregation. We had segregation when Blacks and Whites (by law) went to different schools ate at different restaurants and used different facitilities.

You implied you were against integration when you listed "forced bussing" on your list of reasons you hate America.

"Bussing" was on of the means the nation used to end forced segregation when it was determined that this type of segregation was illegal and immoral.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 09:59 am
southerngrl wrote:
Some interesting facts about slavery during 1860's and before.

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/28/albenson.htm



Facts????

The opening paragraph reads:

"Many in our day have made educational and financial careers out of stating that the South fought only to preserve the institution of slavery during the War of Northern Aggression and that the North fought only to end it. Slavery, they say, was the sole reason the South fought and, therefore, no other consideration need be given any other issue (at least they hope you won't give consideration to any of the other issues)."

COMMENT:

That is what is known as a straw man.

Expressions like "Many in our day have made educational and financial careers out of stating that the South fought ONLY to preserve the institution of slavery..."

...and...

...

"...Slavery, they say, was the sole reason the South fought...

...are absurd.

I don't know that I've ever heard any historian or teacher ever assert that slavery was the "sole reason" or the "only reason" -- or the war -- or for why the South fought.

It certainly was a reason -- and history (the unrevised kind) indicates it was one of the important reasons.

Anyone who starts an essay with stupid, dishonest statements like this shouldn't be taken seriously.

But considering the rationalizations I hear coming from you, SG, I can understand why you would recommend it.

BOTTOM LINE: If this country and its instituions are in danger -- they are in much greater danger from the conservative likes of you -- than from the terrorists of the world.

Or at least, that is my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2003 10:35 am
I was greatly amused by "war of northern aggression." So, are we to assume that the garrison of Fort Sumter went around bashing their brick walls against the cannon balls the South Carolinians had stolen from the Federal armory until those walls crumbled? So those cannon balls were just sitting there, innocently, in mid air, when they were ruthlessly assaulted by Fort Sumter's walls, in an act of unprovoked aggression?

Stop, yer killin' me . . .
0 Replies
 
 

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