57
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 09:13 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
You keep pushing the same line.

The truth is the truth and the media and leftist politicians are pushing a lie. You don't seem to have a problem believing the lie and even pushing it yourself.

Quote:
For ome thing the pro gun people are onmly gonna post agreement. Its anevdotal./quote]
It isn't anecdotal, it's the truth. The left has been pushing a lie about AR-15's for the last 20 years or more, the defination of an assault rifle/weapon was posted and the AR-15 does not meet the definition.

Quote:
And remember marco rubios townhall in fla. [

How could anyone forget that scam of a Townhall put on by CNN. It was nothing more than 2 Minutes of Shame at gun owners and the NRA. It was actually quit pathetic that they allowed the failure of a Sheriff on stage to lie about the actions of his police dept and cowardly cop who allowed those kids to die.

Quote:
The public knows more than you think snd gun x
Zealotry is not where the country is at.

Zealotry is using false definitions to infringe on the 2nd Amendment. The general public doesn't know about guns, if they did, they wouldn't support these silly "assault weapons bans" and they would know better about a "gun show loopholes". The public has been mislead by anti-gun politicians and media.
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 09:37 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
Ummm...actually, that was only the starter question - the least meaningful

The least meaningful, eh? People want to ban assault weapons, and in order to ban a particular weapon that is not an assault weapon, they decide to redefine the meaning of assault weapon to accommodate their wishes.

You can attempt to equate the difference between a semiautomatic weapon and a select-fire weapon with the difference between gay and happy, but the difference between gay and happy will not result in the banning of anything. It's the same with your other analogies. They don't work. You can call a short time a long time, but that doesn't infringe on my right to have a semiautomatic weapon for home protection.

And if you were honest with yourself, your problem is with magazine size. And just to show you how that that is, go ahead and tell me why you think that I shouldn't have a flash suppressor. Give it your best shot.

Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 09:47 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Also, you’re confusing the terms "assault weapon" and "assault rifles."

No. You've just bought into a ridiculous distinction. You just refuse to acknowledge the fact that style in not synonymous with function.
MontereyJack
 
  5  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 09:57 am
@Baldimo,
The recent shooter who used i rhink used an ar15 and a large magazine to shoot 36; people in 33 seconds before the cops took him down definitely commited what any reasnsble person would consider an assault so by definitiin its an assault weapon whether you like the fact or not.
Glennn
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 09:58 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
This didn't answer the question "how does your source('s definition) change the reality of laws that define an AR-15 as an assault rifle?. "

Ah, but the real question is how did the law change the reality that an AR-15 does not match the definition of an assault rifle?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 10:12 am
@MontereyJack,
That is incorrect. The shooter did not use an assault weapon. He used an ordinary gun with a large magazine.
MontereyJack
 
  5  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 11:14 am
@oralloy,
He used a commonly available and very popular weapon which was perfectly capable of commitng a horrendous assault in a minimum of time and now does so with regularity . Which is precisely why most of the country thinks they need to be regulated.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 12:35 pm
@Glennn,
There is a distinction in regard to regulatory jurisdictions.

You're style ≠ function argument is irrelevant in regard to the distinction defined by those regulatory jurisdictions.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 12:39 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Quote:
This didn't answer the question "how does your source('s definition) change the reality of laws that define an AR-15 as an assault rifle?. "

Ah, but the real question is how did the law change the reality that an AR-15 does not match the definition of an assault rifle?

These laws refer to "assault weapons," not "assult rifles." As such, they include certain handguns.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 12:41 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

That is incorrect. The shooter did not use an assault weapon. He used an ordinary gun with a large magazine.


According to the definitions of some of the regulatory jurisdictions, the gun he used was an assault weapon.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 12:52 pm
Various things are defined differently for various purposes, and law is an area where this is most apparent. Tomatoes and other fruits are legally defined as vegetables in regard to trade treaties and other areas of the law. See Nix v. Hedden.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 02:25 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
He used a commonly available and very popular weapon which was perfectly capable of commitng a horrendous assault in a minimum of time and now does so with regularity.

In other words, he used an ordinary rifle with a large magazine attached to it.


MontereyJack wrote:
Which is precisely why most of the country thinks they need to be regulated.

We've been regulating ordinary rifles for 50 years now. Although I'm not aware of any regulations governing large magazines.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 02:26 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
You're style ≠ function argument is irrelevant in regard to the distinction defined by those regulatory jurisdictions.

It's not constitutionally irrelevant, as regulations of cosmetic style are unconstitutional.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 02:27 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
According to the definitions of some of the regulatory jurisdictions, the gun he used was an assault weapon.

Fraudulent definitions concocted by leftist lawmakers have little significance.
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 04:17 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
It seems to me like you are mainly asking why we can't change the meaning of words to whatever we want them to mean at a given moment. So that was the point that I focused on in my answers.
Not at all. You seem to be under a misunderstanding relating to how language works, and why a word means a particular thing.

A word means a particular thing because people commonly agree on it's meaning. But that 'common agreement' varies from place to place (ie. there is not universal agreement on definitions), and time to time (ie definitions evolve over time). Language definitions evolve and vary.

- When 'gay' it first started to be used as a term for homosexual, some who didn't understand the nature of language would have called it wrong / incorrect / fraudulent use of the word. 'Gay' never used to mean homosexual. It evolved to mean that. It is not 'fraudulent' to use it to mean homosexual, despite it's original definition. It was commonly understood to mean happy...and that common understanding evolved over time to now mean homosexual (and you would get odd looks now, trying to use it to mean happy)

- An Australian in the US saying he liked wearing thongs, would be misunderstood. He/She is using a different definition of the word, but it's not fraudulent, because it's name was commonly agreed upon where he/she came from, but in the US they commonly agreed that it would mean something else.

As mentioned, the nature of changing language is 'common agreement', which is why some words differ from place to place, because common agreement in those places differ. It's why dictionaries differ - because they are trying to define what the common agreement for the word is, and the fact is (shown by their varying definitions), there often isn't universal agreement to all that a word entails.

You are arguing semantics on a technicality. To you it's important one way. To others it's important it be defined another way....there's common agreement in both camps, and they don't agree with each other on technical points. The motivations behind it (what they consider dangerous, or highly problematic, or unacceptable risk) is likely largely behind the different interpretations of the same word, in this case. Arguing who is correct, is then futile, because both camps have common agreement of their camps behind them.

Who will 'win'? Who knows. That's the nature of evolving language. What is fact is that one camp had the power to change the definition legally.
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 04:20 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
You are arguing semantics on a technicality.

Lacking a very destictive feature isn't a technicality, it's changing the definition of a word to match what you want it to mean. To be an assault weapon or rifle, the weapon must have a selective fire switch, of which the AR-15 doesn't have. It doesn't fit the definition of an assault anything. It's a semiautomatic rifle, nothing more, nothing less.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 04:29 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
Lacking a very destictive feature isn't a technicality,
If you say so. Let me make up a definition:

- a hand held bullet using weapon, with a long barrel, that is capable of killing multiple people in a short frame of time (Someone might come up with a different definition.)
- That's the important bits. Now to the technical details...


By the way - I don't really care whether or not the AR-15 is classed as an assault rifle in the US or not. I'm pointing out the futility of arguing semantics with someone who has a law saying it is. As per my original posts, all that you achieve is childish bickering over definitions 'You're wrong!'...'No, you're wrong!'...'Am not .You're Wrong!'

I haven't seen anything to show otherwise so far.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 04:37 pm
There is the letter of the law, and there is the spirit of the law. The intent of gun control legislation is crystal clear - to limit the opportunities for one man with a firearm to cause mass violence and casualties. Limiting the sale of semi-automatic guns, a comprehensive national background check system, banning large capacity magazines - these are all things that could help us protect ourselves as a civilized society.

It is possible for someone determined to derail any reasoning about gun control to do so sticking to the letter of the law, but employing ambiguity and technicalities. Some of that is happening here. People doing that are not arguing in good faith.

When people automatically counter any suggested method of gun control with reasons why it would be useless, they are not arguing in good faith. When their overall stance is that there is basically nothing that can (or even should) be done to limit the use of firearms, they are not arguing in good faith.

In order to have a good faith argument about gun control, one rock-bottom stipulation must be made by both sides: that there is a gun problem in our country.

There is no basis for any productive discussion if one side does not accept that there is a problem, but nonetheless gets everyone into splitting semantic hairs defining the problem.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 04:45 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
You're style ≠ function argument is irrelevant in regard to the distinction defined by those regulatory jurisdictions.

It's not constitutionally irrelevant, as regulations of cosmetic style are unconstitutional.


Where do you get that assertion from?
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 04:47 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
According to the definitions of some of the regulatory jurisdictions, the gun he used was an assault weapon.

Fraudulent definitions concocted by leftist lawmakers have little significance.


Opinion duly noted.
0 Replies
 
 

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