57
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 04:50 pm
@snood,
The definition of "assault weapon" was pretty clear in the Federal Assault Weapons Ban law.
Jewels Vern
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 05:02 pm
All proposed controls are based on the assumption that free people are not responsible for their actions. It is no surprise that gun owners feel insulted by proposed controls.

BTW Considering how the government treats us when we are armed to the teeth, just imagine how they will treat us after they have taken away our means of self defense.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 05:34 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Where do you get that assertion from?

From the rules governing whether a restriction is allowed on a fundamental right:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

I've never heard anyone present a case for there being a compelling government interest in regulating the cosmetic style of a weapon.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 05:35 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Let me make up a definition:
- a hand held bullet using weapon, with a long barrel, that is capable of killing multiple people in a short frame of time (Someone might come up with a different definition.)
- That's the important bits. Now to the technical details...

That's a fair definition for "self defense weapon".

Note that Americans have the right to have self defense weapons.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 05:36 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
A word means a particular thing because people commonly agree on it's meaning. But that 'common agreement' varies from place to place (ie. there is not universal agreement on definitions), and time to time (ie definitions evolve over time). Language definitions evolve and vary.

- When 'gay' it first started to be used as a term for homosexual, some who didn't understand the nature of language would have called it wrong / incorrect / fraudulent use of the word. 'Gay' never used to mean homosexual. It evolved to mean that. It is not 'fraudulent' to use it to mean homosexual, despite it's original definition. It was commonly understood to mean happy...and that common understanding evolved over time to now mean homosexual (and you would get odd looks now, trying to use it to mean happy)

- An Australian in the US saying he liked wearing thongs, would be misunderstood. He/She is using a different definition of the word, but it's not fraudulent, because it's name was commonly agreed upon where he/she came from, but in the US they commonly agreed that it would mean something else.

That does not change the fact that it is fraudulent for leftists to fabricate untrue definitions for words as cover for their violation of civil liberties.


vikorr wrote:
As mentioned, the nature of changing language is 'common agreement', which is why some words differ from place to place, because common agreement in those places differ. It's why dictionaries differ - because they are trying to define what the common agreement for the word is, and the fact is (shown by their varying definitions), there often isn't universal agreement to all that a word entails.

I find that when there are multiple definitions for a word, all of the good dictionaries cover all of the definitions.


vikorr wrote:
You are arguing semantics on a technicality.

And rightly so. This is a technical argument about semantics.


vikorr wrote:
You are arguing semantics on a technicality. To you it's important one way. To others it's important it be defined another way....there's common agreement in both camps, and they don't agree with each other on technical points. The motivations behind it (what they consider dangerous, or highly problematic, or unacceptable risk) is likely largely behind the different interpretations of the same word, in this case.

No. That is not the motivation at all. Pistol grips and flash suppressors are not dangerous in any way.

The left's motivation for concocting fraudulent definitions is that they want to violate people's civil liberties for fun, and they hope that their fraudulent definition will enable them to do this.


vikorr wrote:
Arguing who is correct, is then futile, because both camps have common agreement of their camps behind them.

Not futile at all. When leftists deny reality, that just shows that leftists are delusional.


vikorr wrote:
Who will 'win'? Who knows. That's the nature of evolving language.

Leftists cannot make reality disappear no matter they rant against it. So in the end reality will win. And in reality "assault rifle" does not apply to semi-auto weapons.


vikorr wrote:
What is fact is that one camp had the power to change the definition legally.

Writing nonsense into law does not change any definitions.

And there is no such law for most of the US.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 05:38 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:
There is the letter of the law, and there is the spirit of the law. The intent of gun control legislation is crystal clear - to limit the opportunities for one man with a firearm to cause mass violence and casualties.

That is incorrect. Banning pistol grips on rifles is not designed to save any lives. The only goal is to violate people's civil liberties for fun.


snood wrote:
Limiting the sale of semi-automatic guns, a comprehensive national background check system, banning large capacity magazines - these are all things that could help us protect ourselves as a civilized society.

How would limiting the sale of semi-auto guns change anything? They don't produce aimed fire much faster than pumps and lever actions. It sounds like something just designed to hassle hunters.

Pointless restrictions are unconstitutional.


snood wrote:
It is possible for someone determined to derail any reasoning about gun control to do so sticking to the letter of the law, but employing ambiguity and technicalities. Some of that is happening here. People doing that are not arguing in good faith.

Notice that these are tactics used by the left, not by the right.


snood wrote:
When people automatically counter any suggested method of gun control with reasons why it would be useless, they are not arguing in good faith.

Not if they have actual good reasons to back up their arguments.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone here is automatically countering all suggested methods.


snood wrote:
When their overall stance is that there is basically nothing that can (or even should) be done to limit the use of firearms, they are not arguing in good faith.

Nonsense. It is absolutely possible for someone to hold this view in good faith.

I'm not sure if anyone presently here has this view, but it is certainly possible to hold it in good faith.

I think OmSigDavid had this view (and had it in good faith). Unfortunately he is no longer with us.


snood wrote:
In order to have a good faith argument about gun control, one rock-bottom stipulation must be made by both sides: that there is a gun problem in our country.

Can you explain why it matters whether someone is killed with a gun versus with some other weapon?


snood wrote:
There is no basis for any productive discussion if one side does not accept that there is a problem, but nonetheless gets everyone into splitting semantic hairs defining the problem.

Not letting the left use fraudulent definitions does not preclude discussion. It just means the left needs to argue honestly for discussion to proceed.

Not accepting that there is a problem doesn't preclude discussion. It just means that people who believe that there is a problem need to be able to put forth a convincing argument to prove their case.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 05:54 pm
@oralloy,
Lets also not forget that the Founding Fathers knew better than modern day leftists, they used the term "Arms" specifically so that it wouldn't be confused with just a musket only...
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 05:54 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
That does not change the fact that it is fraudulent for leftists to fabricate untrue definitions for words as cover for their violation of civil liberties.
Your whole post just kept proving my point.....'you're wrong'.....'No. You're wrong.'....."Am Not!"
snood
 
  3  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 06:34 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

The definition of "assault weapon" was pretty clear in the Federal Assault Weapons Ban law.


I don’t doubt that it was. But part of the point of my post was that it doesn’t matter how well defined something is to someone whose raison d’etre is to thwart any restrictions on guns.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 07:05 pm
@snood,
They aren't the only ones. Those of us who care about truth and facts can also be grouped among the population that doesn't care how well defined a fraudulent definition is.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 07:07 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Your whole post just kept proving my point.....'you're wrong'.....'No. You're wrong.'....."Am Not!"

When leftists run around screaming things that aren't true, it is worthwhile to counter with a healthy dose of the truth.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 07:09 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:
Lets also not forget that the Founding Fathers knew better than modern day leftists, they used the term "Arms" specifically so that it wouldn't be confused with just a musket only...

Leftists do come up with some pretty odd arguments in their attempts to violate people's civil liberties.

If they ever succeeded in confining civil liberties to archaic technology, Donald Trump would be free to censor political speech on the internet. I suspect that they wouldn't like that very much.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 07:10 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
When leftists run around screaming things that aren't true
To you
Quote:
it is worthwhile to counter with a healthy dose of the truth.
Well, your truth.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 07:11 pm
@vikorr,
The truth is the truth. There are not multiple realities here.

When leftists say things that are not true, they are not true period.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 07:49 pm
@oralloy,
Glad you don't think there are multiple realities - so you admit to the reality that assault rifles are defined in law.

As for multiple truths - a person telling the truth is telling what they believe to be true. And what they believe to be true can vary greatly. So yes, there are multiple truths.

But putting aside the truth as it holds meaning to an individual - other examples exist of multiple social truths:
- Cultures disagree on what constitutes manners, what is polite and what is rude
- People disagree on what subjective words entails
- people disagree on what's bad for society (eg marijuana, gun control, censorship etc)

And if you want further on what people believe to be true:
- people disagree on what is moral (ie have different morals they believe to be true), or ethical (same)
- people disagree on the existence of God

Or if you want to get philosophical, is a table a table?

If it is truth, then why is it tavolo in Italian, and Tabelle in German? And any of the other thousand names different peoples will have for one? A table is in truth - only a table by common agreement in a particular place or language (ie. there are multiple truths for the object that is called a table, because there are other true names for it). It's not actually a 'table'. It's what a table is understood to be in that place and time - (to re-iterate) amongst that group of people that commonly understand it to be a table.

If you haven't noticed by now - this playing semantics is still resulting in "You're wrong'...'No. You're Wrong!'..."Am not. You're wrong!"

Futility at it's best.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 08:06 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
As for multiple truths - a person telling the truth is telling what they believe to be true. And what they believe to be true can vary greatly. So yes, there are multiple truths.
A good example is the belief in god(s). It's based on faith, but it's also their "truth" as they define it. There are religious truths and political truths. What we believe is the truth.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 09:00 pm
@oralloy,
So then, you're arguing a non-issue. Ok.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 11:33 pm
@InfraBlue,
The fact that a law is unconstitutional and a grave violation of our civil liberties is hardly a non-issue.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2019 11:37 pm
@oralloy,
Which law is unconstitutional?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2019 12:12 am
@InfraBlue,
Laws that try to restrict harmless features like pistol grips and flash suppressors are unconstitutional.
 

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