55
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:14 pm
@msolga,
I appreciate and share your disgust about innocent people getting killed in shooting sprees. But did you hear about the recent school shooting in Germany? Germany's gun laws are much tougher than America's, yet I don't see a big difference in the frequency of school shootings and similar horrible things. The impact of gun control on events like this doesn't seem nearly as straightforward as gun control supporters suggest.
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:15 pm
@msolga,
msolga :

have you read malcom gladwell's "outliers" ?
it's a quick read , covers many subjects and is worth a few hours .

his claims regarding violence is :

Quote:
According to Gladwell, Appalachian whites have long been prone to violence because the first whites in the region were predominantly Scotch-Irish coming from “cultures of honor” in the lowlands of Scotland, northern England, and Ulster.


above is from a book review (i borrowed the book from the library , so can't quote him directly ) :
http://openlettersmonthly.com/issue/book-review-outliers-malcolm-gladwell/

indeed , looking at the BBC news , scotland has probably the highest number of "personal attack crimes" - mostly non-gun related though - in the developed world .

of course , that doesn't explain gun violence by others .
...........................................................................................
it's interesting to compare the U.S. and canada (the U.S. of course having a much larger population by ten) .
people from all over the world make up the population of both countries - including many scots , and who are about as peaceful as can be here .
and when it comes to variety in immigrants - both old and new - there is probably every population group in the world represented in canada .

while we personally think that there is a somewhat higher level of crime than 50 years ago - particularly gun violence by drug gangs - canada is still a pretty peaceful country .

it has been suggested by some that one of the reasons can be found in canada's constitution act of 1867 - the years canada was "founded" .
this is what is being referred to as the principal objects of the federal government :
Quote:
Section 91 authorizes Parliament to "make laws for the peace, order, and good government of Canada "


and the mounties (royal canadian mounted police) enforced these laws from early on - much to the annoyance to some american settlers and cattle-thieves who were being asked (not always politely) to : " hand over your guns " .
even now , the first question likely being asked of anyone coming across the border from the U.S. is : "are you bringing any weapons in ? " .
and again , much to the annoyance of some americans , they have to give up their weapons .
some , of course , try to bluff their way in . the canadian border guards seem to have a pretty good nose and will say : "please pull over to the inspection building " .
and if weapons are found , they will be confiscated and a fine may be levied or they may be asked to go back to the U.S.

many americans have cottages in eastern ontario and come over regularly for the fishing season . they don't seem to have much of a problem with canada''s gun laws - they want to come for the fishing by a quiet lake and not show that they are good at toting guns around .
and we certainly welcome those americans - VERY FINE PEOPLE INDEED !
hbg
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:47 pm
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gxAP_ul1xtDvN-3H8XQ5EaI6_7cAD97BPGE00

Quote:
Police official: 3 officers killed in Pa. shooting

By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI " 1 hour ago

PITTSBURGH (AP) " A man opened fire on officers during a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, a police official said. Friends said he had been upset recently about losing his job and that he feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns.

...

Tom Moffitt, 51, a city firefighter who lives two blocks away, said he heard about the shooting on his scanner and came to the scene, where he heard "hundreds, just hundreds of shots. And not just once " several times."


Good thing we let this guy keep an AK around the house. Otherwise, he might have felt his rights were being infringed upon.

I think of all of you gun lovers as this guy - in waiting.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 01:13 pm
According to Ted Kennedy, there r 80,000,000 gun owners in America.
I don t challenge that.

On any given day,
what percentage of us shoot up the town?
What microscopic fraction of 1% of us are guilty of it?

The victim disarmament supporters
want the innocent to pay for the offenses of the guilty
who have already committed suicide.

Compare that to fatalities caused by CAR owners like Kennedy.

(I am both a car owner n a gun owner)




David
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 01:35 pm
well if guns are so easily acceptable why didnt anyone else there have one?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 02:52 pm
I have a question.

Some of you are using the term "gun nuts" as a derogatory term.
So, define the term for me.

What is a "gun nut"?
Are you suggesting that everyone that owns a gun is a "gun nut"?
Is there a minimum number of guns a person must own to be considered a "gun nut"?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 03:11 pm
My uncle had a stamp collection.
I wonder if that made him a stamp nut.

I have a collection of old gold coins.
I wonder if that makes me a coin nut.





David
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 03:13 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
MY wife is going to plant some peas in her garden this spring.
I wonder if that makes her a pea nut.
Deckland
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 03:51 pm
http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu107/MrDeckland/ATT00028.jpg
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 03:54 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

MY wife is going to plant some peas in her garden this spring.
I wonder if that makes her a pea nut.


Don 't let Jimmy Carter find out.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 04:39 pm
@mysteryman,
I would consider someone that thinks a 5 year old should have been armed to prevent her brother from killing her to be a gun nut.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 04:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Too many gun-toters feel that the best response to any situation which seems at all threatening is to kill.


You are that stupid!
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 04:49 pm



Why are all these shootings in BLUE states?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 05:19 pm
@H2O MAN,
Probably because there are so few red states.
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 05:55 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Some of you are using the term "gun nuts" as a derogatory term.
So, define the term for me.


This is like the old saying about pornography - you know it when you see it.

The reality is I don't think anyone can change the gun culture in America. It's imbedded. It mostly comes from a history of paranoia about losing our freedom. Even as strong as we are, many Americans feel someone is always out to get them. I think many Americas care far more about their personal freedom to own guns than they do for human life itself. The death of people by guns is just the price we pay for some members of our country to feel in control of their destiny. The reality is guns do not make for a secure, safe society. Countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan and Congo are all saturated with guns and have incredible amounts of violence. Countries like Scotland, Sweden and Japan have few guns and little gun violence. Personally, I think all kinds guns are here to stay in America and we will just have to live with the consequences and the karma.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 05:57 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
As I been carrying firearms for decades and and had yet to display a weapon let along used it your fear seem somewhat silly. In fact the record of people legally carrying firearms overall is good.

It would be nice it some nut is going on a killing spee however that there is an arm citizen somewhere around or would you perfer to just to die in the name of being anti-gun?

You do know that there is no magic wand that will allow the government to make the 200 hundred millions or so firearms in the US disappear do you not?

The nuts will always will be able to get a weapon one way or another in this country no matter what the laws happen to be.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 06:00 pm
@parados,
How about a nice bomb that I could place under your seat and then walk away in a movie theater.

A bomb that can be created out of material that can be found in any home.

Sorry but we all have the ability to kill each other if we wish to and firearms are only one of many threat models.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 06:00 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

You do know that there is no magic wand that will allow the government to make the 200 hundred millions or so firearms in the US disappear do you not


http://www.dvorak.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/swat-team-at-abraxas_145001.jpg
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 06:04 pm
@djjd62,
Thats a police SWAT team, so whats your point?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 06:18 pm
@msolga,
Sorry, I've just discovered that the link I posted yesterday doesn't work. He's an updated version (below) from today's paper.

May I add: My concerns are entirely about the victims of such shootings. I have far less concern about the rights of anyone to own a gun, just in case they might need it, for "defensive" or any other reasons.

And, for heaven's sake, is it realistic that the victims of the NY shootings (immigrants attending a centre to prepare for citizenship tests), would actually own guns to "protect" themselves? I don't know that they'd even be allowed to legally own guns. Same goes for the 10 elderly people killed at the Nth Carolina nursing home. Should they keep guns by their beds, just in case? Or should the management of the nursing home or the migrant centre have guns at the ready just in case?

Personally, I believe it would be far more sensible if ordinary citizens didn't have such easy access to guns in the first place. (legally or illegally) Then, when a potential killer cracks under stress, looks for revenge, or suffers from an episode of instability or insanity, they might just have to find another (far less harmful to others) method of acting out their aggression or anger, or whatever it is they think they're doing..... :



Quote:
The gunman was identified as Jiverly Wong, 42, a Vietnamese immigrant who lived in nearby Johnson City. Two pistols and a satchel of ammunition were found with his body.

President Barack Obama, on a visit to France, said he was "shocked and deeply saddened to learn about the act of senseless violence".

Many of those in the centre, which helps people prepare for citizenship tests, were apparently of Vietnamese origin and did not speak good English.

New York State Governor David Paterson said victims were there to pursue "the American dream".

"There still is an American dream and all of us who are Americans will try to heal this very, very deep wound in the city of Binghamton," he said.

Mr Zikuski said an emergency call was made at 10.31am by the receptionist as she lay on the floor wounded, listening to the gunman fire at others. The police chief said he had no idea what the motive was and the killer "just came in and shot her. I don't think there was any conversation."

The first police units arrived less than two minutes after the emergency call was made, he said. "The gunfire had ceased by that time. There's no more shots fired."

However, it was unclear to police what the gunman was doing, or even how many gunmen there were, and elite SWAT units took hours to comb through the building.

The carnage was the latest to rock small-town America, where many fiercely defend the legal right to bear arms.

Last Sunday, a heavily armed man burst into a North Carolina nursing home killing eight people. Last month, a 28-year-old unemployed man killed 10 people, including his mother and a toddler, in a shooting rampage through two counties in Alabama. In December, a man dressed as Santa Claus opened fire at a Christmas party, killing nine people. And in September, a man shot eight people, killing six, in Alger, Washington.

Governor Paterson said: "When are we going to be able to curb the kind of violence so rampant that we can't even keep track of the incidents?"


http://www.theage.com.au/world/13-die-as-latest-attack-rocks-smalltown-us-20090404-9sgi.html?page=-1
 

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