57
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:11 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:

I think that stuff was utter crap, though.


Also...weren't the Quebec separatists busy murdering people around then?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:23 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

You mention amending the constitution. What would need to be amended in the constitution except the individual freedom to own firearms. If you think the constitution needs to be amended for gun control measures to be implemented, I don't think it's too much of a leap to think you believe that we need to amend the constitution so that we can start to remove firearms from the citizens of the USA.

You surely aren't suggesting that we need to amend the constitution so that we can mandate trigger locks or keeping firearm unloaded at home? Are you?


Okay let's look at the exact context of the 2nd Amendment:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

My interpretation "right of the people" incorporates the state, the military
and not every individual American. It does nowhere stipulate that every
individual has the right to bear arms. To "bear arms" is a military term,
and as such it was intended for military to keep and bear arms.

How would I change it? Simply to this: ".....the right to bear arms for lawful purposes only", which interprets to military, police force and individuals who
can prove that they are in need of self protection (such as owners of jewelry stores, etc.). Everyone else is exempt from the right to bear arms.

Tell me maporsche, why do you need a gun ?
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:37 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
Tell me maporsche, why do you need a gun ?



Not just A gun or any gun mind you... what I really feel I need is one of those Krieghoff triple guns: two 12ga barrels and one 8mm barrel. Then if I were ever attacked by a bear and a flock of geese simultaneously, I could defend myself.

https://secure.mmm.co.uk/sei/s/2855/e/ug-rd-01.jpg
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:41 pm
Other than that, believe it or not, having a few dozen people killed by a lunatic here and there is simply a price most Americans (myself included) feel is worth paying for not having the Hitlers, Tojos, Stalins or Mussolinis that you get when entire populations are disarmed.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:42 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane, I see your problem right here.

Quote:

My interpretation "right of the people" incorporates the state, the military and not every individual American.


Your liberal interpretation and subsequent argument are flawed.

The original, unaltered Constitution is just fine as-is.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:44 pm
Think really, really hard. Isn't having several thousand people killed in highway carnage every year a price most people view as acceptable for no longer living in the horse age?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:48 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
Tell me maporsche, why do you need a gun ?



Not just A gun or any gun mind you...



Nice! Side by side with the 8mm running down the middle?


I need a gun that delivers a little more, this here Crazy Horse M21A5 EBR is about as good as it gets.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/H2O-M14-2.jpg
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:55 pm
Listening to you two is a perfect reason why not EVERYONE should be
allowed to keep and bear arms.
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:56 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Then if I were ever attacked by a bear and a flock of geese simultaneously, I could defend myself.


Oh please, you would **** in your pants by the mere thought of a bear,
never mind defending yourself.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 09:04 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Listening to you two is a perfect reason why not EVERYONE should be allowed to keep and bear arms.


Strike two.

EVERYONE is not allowed to keep and bear arms. There are laws and restrictions, background checks and tax stamps.

Listening to you is a perfect reason why not EVERYONE should be allowed to vote.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 11:11 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Listening to you two is a perfect reason why not EVERYONE should be
allowed to keep and bear arms.

Will u reveal your opinion
of the part of the Constitution that requires "equal protection of the laws" ?

Some folks believe in Equal Rights, like the right to vote.
I believe that applies, logically and morally, to the right to defend your life from predatory violence.




David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 11:30 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

maporsche wrote:

You mention amending the constitution. What would need to be amended in the constitution except the individual freedom to own firearms. If you think the constitution needs to be amended for gun control measures to be implemented, I don't think it's too much of a leap to think you believe that we need to amend the constitution so that we can start to remove firearms from the citizens of the USA.

You surely aren't suggesting that we need to amend the constitution so that we can mandate trigger locks or keeping firearm unloaded at home? Are you?


Okay let's look at the exact context of the 2nd Amendment:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,
the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

My interpretation "right of the people" incorporates the state, the military
and not every individual American. It does nowhere stipulate that every
individual has the right to bear arms. To "bear arms" is a military term,
and as such it was intended for military to keep and bear arms.

How would I change it? Simply to this: ".....the right to bear arms for lawful purposes only", which interprets to military, police force and individuals who
can prove that they are in need of self protection (such as owners of jewelry stores, etc.). Everyone else is exempt from the right to bear arms.

Tell me maporsche, why do you need a gun ?

Jane, in the case of US v. VERDUGO (199O) 11O S.Ct. 1O56
(at P. 1O61) the US Supreme Court declares that:

"The Second Amendment protects
'the right of the people to keep
and bear arms'
".

THE SUPREME COURT THEN PROCEEDS TO DEFINE "THE PEOPLE" AS BEING THE
SAME PEOPLE
WHO CAN VOTE TO ELECT THE US HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EVERY SECOND YEAR. (Notably, one need not join the National Guard
in order to vote for his congressman.) The Court further defined
"the people" to mean those people who have a right peaceably to assemble [1st Amendment]
and those who have the right to be free of
unreasonable searches and seizures [4th Amendment] in their persons
houses, papers and effects (personal rights, not rights of states,
as the authoritarian-collectivists allege of the 2nd Amendment).
THE COURT HELD THAT THE TERM "THE PEOPLE" MEANS THE SAME THING
EVERYWHERE THAT IT IS FOUND IN THE CONSTITUTION OF 1787, AND
EVERYWHERE THAT IT IS FOUND IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS.

In VERDUGO (supra), the Court indicated that the same people are
protected by the First, SECOND, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth Amendments;
i.e.THE PEOPLE who can speak n worship freely are THE PEOPLE who can keep and bear arms.





David
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 11:38 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Other than that, believe it or not, having a few dozen people killed by a lunatic here and there is simply a price most Americans (myself included) feel is worth paying for not having the Hitlers, Tojos, Stalins or Mussolinis that you get when entire populations are disarmed.



Snort!!!!!


Kindly defend this stupid assertion with full figures and research.


Hint: You consider the UK, Australia, Canada disarmed, no?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 11:39 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Other than that, believe it or not, having a few dozen people killed by a lunatic here and there is simply a price most Americans (myself included) feel is worth paying for not having the Hitlers, Tojos, Stalins or Mussolinis that you get when entire populations are disarmed.

Yes.
Historically, your point is very well taken.
America was founded by Revolutionaries,
all of whom advocated n supported the right of the people
to overthrow the government, if such be their choice.

Indeed, in the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson
describes it as a duty, to throw off oppressive government.

One of the first acts of the First Congress in 1789
was to cap the US Army at 840 men, thereby facilitating overthrow of the government.

The Founders took SERIOUSLY that this was a free country.





David
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  4  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 12:49 am
@H2O MAN,
Well, here we are, folks. Lots of "pro-gun arguments" from the water person, the snake person & the David person .... complete with photographs of the weapons they apparently drool & dream about.

So I'm wondering: are these folk a realistic representation of the "pro-gun lobby" in the US?

(I think I'm starting to see what the problem is.)

Diest TKO
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 12:58 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Well, here we are, folks. Lots of "pro-gun arguments" from the water person, the snake person & the David person .... complete with photographs of the weapons they apparently drool & dream about.

So I'm wondering: are these folk a realistic representation of the "pro-gun lobby" in the US?

(I think I'm starting to see what the problem is.)

Interesting...

T
K
O
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 01:01 am
@Diest TKO,
Interesting in what way to you, Diest?

Just asking.... Smile
Diest TKO
 
  4  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 01:10 am
@msolga,
Well, you made me think about the problems with the waterboy, the snakeboy and the daveyboy's gun logic.

Either their beliefs RE: Guns are moderate or partisan. If they are logical and not a matter of left and right, but simply a matter of truth, then they should self-identify themselves as being extreme. That would mean that they are not good examples of the gun lobby because the gun lobby is bipartisan. On the other hand, they could self-identify as the ideal gun advocate, and in doing so make this a very partisan issue.

You asked them to cater to their cause or their ego.

That is what is interesting to me.
K
O
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 01:16 am
... & then we have marsporche ,who says:

Re: maporsche (Post 3616784)

"I care more about my right to own guns than I do about the life that is lost because of guns."

.. but says he doesn't support murder .....


saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 01:34 am
@msolga,
msolga
Having guns so you can protect yourself against dictators like Hitler, Stalin and co is an unrealistc dream.
Seeing himself as a hero killing the future dictator, forgetting he has to kill also the thousands of followers. What a daydream.
More realistic I think is that these gunlovers would follow any dictator so they are able to use their guns any time to protect themselves against the masses being against the dictator.
 

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