57
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
hamburger
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 12:30 pm
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

the above link gives various stats for U.S. poputation and crime rates .
it's too big to post here .
the interesting fact is that murders actualy peaked in the early 1990's and have now started to come down - rather interesting imo .
the question i would have is : what brought the numbers down ?
- more guns in the general population ?
- sticter gun laws ?
- better law enforcemant ?
- a population that is becoming "just a bit" more peaceful ?

should make for an interesting study .

imo one of the worst things is that many gun murders take place within families . i have no stats on this but have read more than once that the killer is often a family member or well known friend .
what is also inteseting that the killer is often described as " a very easy going person " . it seems that those "easy going " persons should be avoided !
...................................................................................................................

i posted on a friend's sad story before - here it is in short form :
kurt was a good friend of ours for over 40 years . he was always ready to help - never "i'm busy" - if you needed him , he came .
he loved fishing and hunting and had a nice cottage where often 20 to 40 people visited on a weekend - he just loved it .
he had one son , married , two grandkids - who were his pride .
as happens at times , father and son didn't always see eye-to-eye , but they always visited with each other regularly .
when kurt's wife died he moved out to the cottage permanently .
the son and his family kept visiting even though it was about an eight hour return trip .
three years ago , something snapped .
the son had come to visit by himself and late in the day there was some kind of disagreement .
as the son was about to leave , kurt grabbed a gun and threatened to shoot him .
the son made a quick run for it and phoned the police from a neighbour's cottage .
when the police arrived , kurt was still standing there , gun under his arm . he couldn't understand what was going on .
he was taken in for observation : HE HAD STARTED TO DEVELOP DEMENTIA !
he was put into a nice home but no idea what had happened to him .
the son kept visiting and recently brought his father close to their own home so that they could visit him more regularly .
there didn't seem to be any hard feelings by his son : DAD WAS A SICK PERSON WHO NEEDED HIM AND THE GRANDKIDS !
...............................................................................................................

my question to those in favour of handguns :
if the son had carried a handgun and he would have shot his father , would that have been acceptable ?
(remember he had a wife and two kids !)

there is no question that the son felt and was being threatened .
kurt was a big guy and his son would not likely have been able to wrestle the gun away from him .

anyone want to answer this simple question : would the son have been right to shoot his dad to fend of the impending attack ?
hbg

ANYONE ?





hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 01:28 pm
@hamburger,
from my previous post :

Quote:
imo one of the worst things is that many gun murders take place within families . i have no stats on this but have read more than once that the killer is often a family member or well known friend .

...................................................................................................
sadly , i didn't have to wait long before adding to my post :


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jjXzF8BSXFLpOFfc6psDn9i9AEKwD97CFEAO0

Quote:
Memorial grows at Wash. home of 5 killed children
59 minutes ago

GRAHAM, Wash. (AP) " Neighbors left cards and bouquets of flowers Sunday at the mobile home where five children ages 7 to 16 were slain, apparently by their father, who also took his own life.

Authorities had not yet determined what might have driven James Harrison to slaughter his family.

The yellow crime-scene tape and dozens of investigators who responded to the scene on Saturday were gone Sunday. The home's front yard was littered with children's toys: bicycles, a swing set, a trampoline and a basketball hoop.

"How do you make sense out of something like this?" asked Jeff Davis, superintendent of the 2,100-student Orting School District where the children attended school.

Four of the children were shot in their beds and the fifth was shot in the bathroom in Graham, 15 miles southeast of Tacoma, Pierce County deputies said.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 01:44 pm
@hamburger,
hamburger wrote:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

the above link gives various stats for U.S. poputation and crime rates .
it's too big to post here .
the interesting fact is that murders actualy peaked in the early 1990's and have now started to come down - rather interesting imo .
the question i would have is : what brought the numbers down ?
- more guns in the general population ?
- sticter gun laws ?
- better law enforcemant ?
- a population that is becoming "just a bit" more peaceful ?

should make for an interesting study .

imo one of the worst things is that many gun murders take place within families . i have no stats on this but have read more than once that the killer is often a family member or well known friend .
what is also inteseting that the killer is often described as " a very easy going person " . it seems that those "easy going " persons should be avoided !
...................................................................................................................

i posted on a friend's sad story before - here it is in short form :
kurt was a good friend of ours for over 40 years . he was always ready to help - never "i'm busy" - if you needed him , he came .
he loved fishing and hunting and had a nice cottage where often 20 to 40 people visited on a weekend - he just loved it .
he had one son , married , two grandkids - who were his pride .
as happens at times , father and son didn't always see eye-to-eye , but they always visited with each other regularly .
when kurt's wife died he moved out to the cottage permanently .
the son and his family kept visiting even though it was about an eight hour return trip .
three years ago , something snapped .
the son had come to visit by himself and late in the day there was some kind of disagreement .
as the son was about to leave , kurt grabbed a gun and threatened to shoot him .
the son made a quick run for it and phoned the police from a neighbour's cottage .
when the police arrived , kurt was still standing there , gun under his arm . he couldn't understand what was going on .
he was taken in for observation : HE HAD STARTED TO DEVELOP DEMENTIA !
he was put into a nice home but no idea what had happened to him .
the son kept visiting and recently brought his father close to their own home so that they could visit him more regularly .
there didn't seem to be any hard feelings by his son : DAD WAS A SICK PERSON WHO NEEDED HIM AND THE GRANDKIDS !
...............................................................................................................

my question to those in favour of handguns :
if the son had carried a handgun and he would have shot his father , would that have been acceptable ?
(remember he had a wife and two kids !)

there is no question that the son felt and was being threatened .
kurt was a big guy and his son would not likely have been able to wrestle the gun away from him .

anyone want to answer this simple question :
would the son have been right to shoot his dad to fend of the impending attack ?
hbg

ANYONE ?


YES.


I wish that Andrea Yates' children had been able to grab guns.

She later said that she CHASED her 7 year old boy thru the house
and dragged him to his death
, after he discovered
that she had drowned his brothers and sisters in the bathtub.

He died, at her hands, unarmed.
Because of his age, the gun suppressionist folks will be shouting: HOORAAAAY !!!
that he was not able to grab a gun.
He 's not going to get much older.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:04 pm
@hamburger,
hamburger wrote:

from my previous post :

Quote:
imo one of the worst things is that many gun murders take place within families . i have no stats on this but have read more than once that the killer is often a family member or well known friend .

...................................................................................................
sadly , i didn't have to wait long before adding to my post :


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jjXzF8BSXFLpOFfc6psDn9i9AEKwD97CFEAO0

Quote:
Memorial grows at Wash. home of 5 killed children
59 minutes ago

GRAHAM, Wash. (AP) " Neighbors left cards and bouquets of flowers Sunday at the mobile home where five children ages 7 to 16 were slain, apparently by their father, who also took his own life.

Authorities had not yet determined what might have driven James Harrison to slaughter his family.

The yellow crime-scene tape and dozens of investigators who responded to the scene on Saturday were gone Sunday. The home's front yard was littered with children's toys: bicycles, a swing set, a trampoline and a basketball hoop.

"How do you make sense out of something like this?" asked Jeff Davis, superintendent of the 2,100-student Orting School District where the children attended school.

Four of the children were shot in their beds and the fifth was shot in the bathroom in Graham, 15 miles southeast of Tacoma, Pierce County deputies said.


Woud u have been happier
if he 'd blown them up with a bomb ?
or burned them up ?
How woud u feel about poison ?
There are a lot of ways.
Where there is a WILL there 's a way.


Sometimes, a parent decides to commit suicide.
Too frequently, the parent decides against leaving the kids behind,
alone in the world and kills them before committing the suicide.
(It woud be BETTER if he or she committed the suicide FIRST.)

In 2003, I attended a wonderful Mensa Annual Gathering in St. Paul, Minnesota
around the 4th of July. We went on a dinner cruise.
We were delayed because a woman threw her 2 children
into the Mississippi River; no survivors.
One of them died a month later in a hospital.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:24 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
Sigh.

Nobody with sense is regarding percentage of gun ownership as the only important variable.

... of course not. And I won't pretend I have refuted your case when I create that plot, and the data points don't end up on a straight line. Nothing to sigh about.

dlowan wrote:
I would argue that it is one of the important ones, though....with other cultural and historical factors also being important.

... and if that's true, we will see a statistical correlation between gun ownership and the rates of murder and suicide. Not a perfect one, but a correlation. If, on the other hand, the data points are all over the graph, we can conclude that other factors dwarf gun ownership as an influence on murders and suicides. I'm perfectly open about the outcome.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDavid wrote:
In any event, the rights defended by the 2nd Amendment ARE NATURAL RIGHTS, like the right to believe what u wish to believe.

In all due respect, I think you need to read the historical and philosophical background of the right to bear arms. Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765), for one, is unambiguous in stating that the right to bear arms is a civil, procedural right, comparable to like the right to due process in court and to petitioning the government. It's not a natural right like life, liberty, and property.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:41 pm


Obama takes office and the number of shootings increase... change you can believe in Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 04:37 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

OmSigDavid wrote:
In any event, the rights defended by the 2nd Amendment ARE NATURAL RIGHTS, like the right to believe what u wish to believe.

In all due respect, I think you need to read the historical and philosophical background of the right to bear arms. Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765), for one, is unambiguous in stating that the right to bear arms is a civil, procedural right, comparable to like the right to due process in court and to petitioning the government. It's not a natural right like life, liberty, and property.

With the fullness of counter-respect,
tho I admit that in his Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765),
Blackstone is perfectly free to comment on the Laws of England,
I find myself in the position of Rene Descartes, when he uttered:
"Cogito ergo sum"; it was plain to him beyond doubt
that he coud not think if he did not exist.

No right can precede nor outrank the right to defend one 's life,
in the face of predatory violence
. I am very confident that the
Founding Fathers agreed with me. Indeed, thay expected everyone
to do that, as a matter of personal responsibility, to the extent
that when the Founding Instruments were enacted in the 1700s,
thay had no police anywhere in the USA.
The potential institution of a police force
(to which thay referred as "a standing army") was an object
of dread and abhorence, both in America and in England,
until the following century.

As a time-honored right of the Judeo-Christian tradition,
I have been informed that ancient Jewish principle
recognizes that it was a sin to fail to defend oneself,
if one were attacked.

Colonial America had its own gun control laws:
"every...inhabitant of this colony provide for himself and each
under him able to bear arms, a sufficient musket...with [ammunition]
and for each default ...forfeit ten shillings." (New Plymouth 1632)
For the sake of safety, in the spirit of today's mandatory seatbelt legislation,
colonial gun control laws prohibited going to church or to work,
in an unarmed condition. (Virginia 1631)
Clergymen checked to make sure that their congregants were well armed.
These laws were socially paradigmatic as, since 1512,
English boys aged 7 to 17 were required to be armed,
at their fathers' expense, with adapted longbows
deemed devastating since the 1346 Battle of Crecy and
the 1415 Battle of Agincourt (guns being less accurate,
before invention of rifling) and "bring them up in shooting".
Male adults were required to be armed.
(Statute of Winchester, as amended by King Henry VIII)


In America: no government was ever invested with authority
to abridge the right of self-defense from predatory violence.
At the foundation of any such government, if its adherents
had been asked that question, surely thay 'd proudly deny it,
in deference to personal liberty.

Do u dissent ?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 04:44 pm
Guns have become the religion of many Americans. These millions of fanatics don't have to personally point the guns. They just have to create an atmosphere and opportunity, in which unstable persons feel encouraged - compelled, even - to shoot.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 05:16 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

Guns have become the religion of many Americans.


Guns in America have not become a religion and they never will.

Two things are happening in the US right know.

1. The people are becoming increasingly aware that Obama and his administration are not qualified to run the USA.
The people are worried sick about their future in this country.

2. FACT: The Obama administration is attempting to further restrict private gun ownership in this country.

There is a saying... live by the gun - die by the gun.

The gun is as much a part of US history as religion is, but guns are not a religion.
Judging from the record post election sales of guns and ammo in the US, the god fearing people in this country have chosen to live by the gun.
Even the non-god fearing people in this country are choosing to live by the gun.


.........


Sick individuals are everywhere and the stress of the current economic situation alone is more than some can handle, add in
what Obama has planned for this country and it's no surprise that Americans are worried sick about their future in this country.

Only sick individuals perpetrate the type of crimes the media loves to cover 24/7.

If you have a gun and feel the need to shoot something... shoot your TV ...
and promptly lock your unloaded weapon in your safe because you are unstable.

It's safer for everyone if you just turn off your TV 2 Cents
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 05:29 pm
@H2O MAN,
ho2 wrote :

Quote:
Judging from the record post election sales of guns and ammo in the US, the god fearing people in this country have chosen to live by the gun.


i never heard god telling HIS people to get guns and start killing each other ...
must have missed that part of the sermon .

i guess this is not a good quotation to give to some americans - it might be answered with a gunblast :

Quote:
"And be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

~Ephesians 4:32~
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 05:43 pm
@hamburger,
hamburger wrote:

ho2 wrote :

Quote:
Judging from the record post election sales of guns and ammo in the US, the god fearing people in this country have chosen to live by the gun.


i never heard god telling HIS people to get guns...


And neither did the non-god fearing people, what's your point?
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 06:28 pm
@H2O MAN,
h2o :

i thought you wrote : "the god fearing people in this country have chosen to live by the gun. "

did i get that wrong ?

btw i never heard it being said that we should FEAR god . the priests and ministers i have known over many years always spoke about LOVING god and god's LOVE for his people - probably a different god than the one you believe in .
i even heard of god forgiving all sins ... beginning to wonder which god they were speaking about ..
hbg
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 06:33 pm
@hamburger,
You know, maybe water creep said more sense than he knew, for once?

"the god fearing people in this country have chosen to live by the gun."


It seems the culture of fear and aggression in the US, combined with the ridiculous levels of gun ownership, seem to be what makes it such a murderous society.

Perhaps the god fearing have a fearsoke god because they are so afraid?

Others seem capable of finding a god to love, if gods they must have.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 06:40 pm
@hamburger,
Quote:
btw i never heard it being said that we should FEAR god . the priests and ministers i have known over many years always spoke about LOVING god and god's LOVE for his people - probably a different god than the one you believe in .
i even heard of god forgiving all sins ... beginning to wonder which god they were speaking about ..


The loving God is the one packaged for the "me" generation, those who pick their religion ala carte. Before that the Protestants were overwhelmingly bible thumpers, they thinking that the Catholics had errored by going soft. Now Prodestants act like they believe in Heaven but not in Hell, and expect to still be taken seriously.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 06:41 pm
@hawkeye10,
I rest my case!!!
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 06:43 pm
@dlowan,
PEACE !

probably one reason why john lennon and yoko ono came to montreal/canada for their "love-in" .
john would have been safer staying in montreal .
btw the room they stayed in has become somewhat of a memorial - it has a small plaque mounted on the door - but is for rent to anyone .

http://www.westmountexaminer.com/imgs/dynamique/cp/e050164A.jpg




H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 07:08 pm
@hamburger,
hamburger wrote:



did i get that wrong ?




Your interpretation is incorrect.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 07:10 pm
@hamburger,
I think that stuff was utter crap, though.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 07:11 pm
@hamburger,
hamburger wrote:


PEACE !



Love in the form of an M14!
http://www.survivalarts.com/images/peace_thru_superior_firepower.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

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