18
   

No wonder Joe the Plumber Is worried About Taxes

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:11 pm
@squinney,
squinney wrote:
The wealthy will always pay more taxes. Republicans try to sell that as redistribution of wealth and a hinderance to living the American Dream as if it stops people from starting their own business. Nonsense!

The minimum requirement in debate is to be able to state your opponent's position correctly, and you aren't. I haven't encountered anyone who wants the rich and the middle class to pay the same dollar amount. We are saying, or at least I am saying, that it's unfair for the wealthy to have to pay a much, much higher percentage of their income to taxes, so if you want to take issue with something, take issue with that.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:13 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

As I have said at every opportunity: Give free money to the rich, it's good business, investing in our future; give free money to the poor, it's welfare.

Nobody's talking about giving free money to the rich. We're saying that after loopholes are quite properly closed, don't tax a much higher percentage of income for the wealthy than for the middle. You can always win arguments if you ignore what the other guy's position actually is.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
The emphasis should be on attaching social stigma to anyone not insisting that his/her local schools provide excellent education and not insisting that his/her kids take full advantage of it. The emphasis should be on rewarding the best schools and making it possible for parents to choose those. Make a highschool diploma a social necessity; make dropping out of school the scummiest of low life decision; and you'll have kids opting to stay in school. Perhaps withhold drivers' license from people until Age 21 or a highschool diploma, whichever comes first?

At any rate, there are ways to solve the education problem. Currently the plan is to throw more and more money at a failing system as if that would make a difference. The USA spends more money on education than essentially any other country and produces abysmal results. How about focusing on changing the system instead of increasing the funding for failure?

As for working one's way to prosperity, there has been no other sustainable system developed. Yes the results will be unequal because people will always be unequal in their ability, ambition, skill set levels, etc. etc. etc. but the more people who can be taught to see themselves as part of the whole system of wealth creation rather than being taught to see themselves as entitled to the fruits of it whether or not they contribute, the fewer poor there will be. Any policy that attempts to achieve equality of outcome without demanding equality of effort is doomed to fail.



0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Not everyone is intended to be self-employed or a university graduate. Education isn't the whole answer because if everyone was middle to upper class we would have no workers for McDonalds, Starbucks, or even the lower paid Joe the Plumbers that work for someone else rather than starting their own business.

In a small town in Ohio how many plumbers do you need? If every plumber in town just started their own business rather than pooling talent, advertising dollars, costs of office space, vehicle payments etc. by having Joe the Plumber work for John the Plumber, Inc., all of the plumber business gets pulled down.

Everyone can't go out and open their own Starbucks, McDonalds, Wal Mart, Golden Corral... Someone has to work the lines. We can't all be Queen Bee's. What's the value of being a Queen Bee if there are no workers? The workers bring in the honey. Should they then also be required to pay an equal share of rent in the hive as the Queen who already has all of the advantages?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:18 pm
@Brandon9000,
The experts and the majority disagree with you, the good of the many out weights the good of the few. It takes a certain level of morality to understand the point, I put you in the "he does not have it" group. :
Quote:
The idea of a progressive tax has garnered support from economists and political scientists of many different ideologies - ranging from Adam Smith to Karl Marx, although there are differences of opinion about the optimal level of progressivity. Some economists[15] trace the origin of modern progressive taxation to Adam Smith, who wrote in The Wealth of Nations:

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.[16]

In most western European countries and the United States, advocates of progressive taxation tend to be found among the majority of economists and social scientists who realize that completely proportional taxation is not even a possibility.[17][18] In the U.S., the vast majority of economists (81%) support progressive taxation.[17][

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:23 pm
@squinney,
If the Queen Bee makes $100,000 and pays 10% in taxes, s/he will pay $10,000.

If the guy on the cookline makes $10,000 and pays 10% in taxes, s/he will pay $1,000.

Yes the Queen Bee has a lot more left over, but the Queen Bee also pays a whole bunch more. Also it was the Queen Bee who risked those long hours and put capital on the line in taking the risk, and who maintains the property and assumes the considerable risks of doing business in our litigious society etc.

The guy on the cookline may or may not be willing to put in that kind of personal investment to strike out on his own. But the Queen Bee meanwhile is providing the means for him to earn a living and develop a work ethic and acquire skills. If he at some point should try to make it in his own business, he will be much more likely to make it.

Significantly increase Queen Bee's taxes and she might decide to do without that guy on the cookline altogether. And he is then without a job or any of the benefits that go with it.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:26 pm
@squinney,
You are correct, and it also needs to be pointed out that if you spend a lot of time and money educating an individual you give them certain expectations on how their live will go, there is the expectation of payoff for doing the education work. If you send a kid to collage and they do everything well, but after they are not able to put their skills to work, there will be hell to pay. These are very angry people.

I am not saying open the doors of education to everyone. We have way too many slots in Universities as it is. What we need to do is cut the slots and make everyone compete for the fewer slots. The best candidates get them. This however does not have anything to do with my theory on class and education. Except this; as it is now gifting to a university will allow a upper class family to get their kid in, especially if the one of the parents is an alumni. Ideally universities would end this practice, it cheats better qualifed students out of a spot, some of them will be lower class products whom are trying to better themselves.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:58 pm
@Foxfyre,
It would be shortsighted for the Queen Bee to cut the linecook loose over a 5% /$5000 or even 10%/$10,000 tax increase. She would spend more than that re-training another linecook, possibly losing customers loyal to that linecook, chancing competing with the new Hive opened by the linecook she mentored AND she would still need to pay someone to cook. She isn't at that point in the business going to takeover the cookline herself. Better to pay the taxes and continue to make sure the original linecook is happy.

Sure, there is a tipping point where increased taxes would outweigh advantages of keeping the linecook. But it would have to be pretty significant. Does she need to keep in her pocket (after tax deductions) $90,000 rather than $85,000? Is that going to really disrupt her business? Her ability to live well?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 01:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
The Queen Bee is the wrong analogy. It should be about contributions for the company in which they work, and rewarded accordingly. The way it works today is that CEOs gets paid way over their worth even when they run the company into the ground (bankruptcy), and they walk away with golden parachutes. That is simply wrong not only in common sense terms but ethically.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 01:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
The stupidest part of this assumption is the reason Foxy gives for the "Queen Bee" making $100,000 a year. The idea that Queen Bees work harder or put in longer hours than the "linecook" is silly.

Queen Bees are made privileged. They make money because they were born in the position to take advantage of what the American society (and government) give them. They profit more from government education. They make more money from a good highway system. They benefit more from the security and the economic system that living under a good government provide.

The Queen Bees of the world get all of the advantages. There is no reason that the little guy shouldn't get a break.

The real injustice is that when there is a crisis such as we are having now... even an crisis that was caused by the Queen Bee... the little guy is the one who is asked to pay the bill.

And ... then there is the issue of fairness. Without doubt the best way to be a Queen Bee is to be born into the family of the Queen Bee. In a just system, every American would have the same chance of becoming a Queen Bee.

But the Sons of Bees still want to get all the breaks.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 01:57 pm
@ebrown p,
ya, had the abilty to get permits, get financing, to take the risk of not having a paycheck for months, had the $100,000+ startup costs!

and then took advantage of living in a wealthy stable society where people can and do eat outside of their homes, often paying a huge premium over home cooked costs to do so. A wise business person would be looking out for the best interests of her workers and potential customers, because without them she has NOTHING
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 02:11 pm
@squinney,
squinney wrote:

It would be shortsighted for the Queen Bee to cut the linecook loose over a 5% /$5000 or even 10%/$10,000 tax increase. She would spend more than that re-training another linecook, possibly losing customers loyal to that linecook, chancing competing with the new Hive opened by the linecook she mentored AND she would still need to pay someone to cook. She isn't at that point in the business going to takeover the cookline herself. Better to pay the taxes and continue to make sure the original linecook is happy.

Sure, there is a tipping point where increased taxes would outweigh advantages of keeping the linecook. But it would have to be pretty significant. Does she need to keep in her pocket (after tax deductions) $90,000 rather than $85,000? Is that going to really disrupt her business? Her ability to live well?



It is true that Queen Bees everywhere have tolerated higher taxes as a consequence of their success and most don't complain about that. But it has to be profitable for the Queen Bee to hire that line cook or any other employee. Raise the cost of doing business, including taxes, a great deal less profitable, and Queen Bee may decide it just isn't worth it to stay open the extra hours or do the additional investment or take on more risk; she scales back or doesn't expand and the line cook's job is eliminated or is never created.

The line cook makes money for his employer by providing a service that the employer's customers are willing to pay for, and hopefully is contributing to the public welfare by paying his fair share of taxes, but he is taking no personal risk, investing nothing of his own wealth, and creating no jobs for others all of which the Queen Bee is doing.

It should never be the prerogative of government to dictate how much a private citizen is allowed to earn or strive for. Put a cap on government funded projects, programs, services yes. Absolutely. But keep the government out of private initiative. I don't know a single buisness owner who is earning six figures that is not providing employment for a dozen or so others. Those in the millionaire range are usually providing employment for several hundreds of others; those in the multi millionaire range are providing employment for thousands of others. Not everybody has the talent or ambition to do that but it should never be the government's role to muzzle the ox who treadeth out the corn no matter how much he winds up taking for himself.

Let the government step in to prevent unscrupulous employers from violating laws necessary to protect everybody and/or violating the terms of their agreements with their employees, but otherwise keep the government out of it.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 02:29 pm
@Brandon9000,
But you have not defined "much much higher" Brandon. I asked you to once and you blew it off .

What is considered much much higher? 10% higher? 25% higher? 50%higher?
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 02:51 pm
@squinney,
that's why I don't want to be a worker... I want to be a drone...
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 03:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
from foxfire's post :

Quote:
And those super-rich one percenters? Their share of the nation's income has risen, but their tax burden has risen even faster:

In 1979, affluent individuals made 9.3 percent of the nation's income and they paid 18.3 percent of the country's income tax.

In 2004, they made 16.3 percent of the nation's income but their share of the income tax burden leaped to 36.7 percent.
(ari fleischer)


so their income increased by about 75 % .

what ari "conveniently" omitted are the actual amounts of money (the $,$$$,$$$) that the top affluent ones made .
i have to wonder why ?
since he was playing around with those numbers , surely , he had those numbers right in front of him .

as he states "Their share of the nation's (TOTAL) income has risen" .

using ari's figures (those that he supplied) , i'll pretend to be "affluent" .

so if i'm affluent and made $5 million in 1979 and made million $8.75 in 2004 (those lovely bonus payments ! , while at the same time sending more workers on the unemployment line - it''s called "downsizing" ) .

now let's see , i paid (an asssumed) 18 % tax ($900,000) and was left with
$4.1 million in 1979 .
now i'm making $8.75 million , i'm paying (an assumed) 36% tax ($3.1million) and i'm left with $5.65 million for 2004 !

so my NET INCOME increased $1.55 million (or 31 % !) .

now , i don't know what happened to the incomes of the people laid off - ari doesn't seem to ever come across them in his daily life - why would he care ?

i'll refrain from further comments here and will allow everyone to draw her/his own conclusions !
hbg
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 03:06 pm
Part of being successful is paying taxes. I have zero interest in hearing about how the wealthy "tolerate" it.

They aren't being punished.
K
O
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 03:23 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
It is true that Queen Bees everywhere have tolerated higher taxes as a consequence of their success and most don't complain about that. But it has to be profitable for the Queen Bee to hire that line cook or any other employee. Raise the cost of doing business, including taxes, a great deal less profitable, and Queen Bee may decide it just isn't worth it to stay open the extra hours or do the additional investment or take on more risk; she scales back or doesn't expand and the line cook's job is eliminated or is never created.
You act as if the Queen Bee pays for the business 0ut of the $100,000. That is what she makes AFTER she pays for the business. As was pointed out, making $85,000 instead of $90,000 after taxes doesn't raise the costs of her business because that is a separate item. Raise the cost of doing business and her profit goes down so she pays less taxes.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 04:45 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
How about the smear campaign the media has launched against Cindy McCain? The NYT actually instigated an email campaign trying to get her daughter's friends to dig up or reveal any dirt they could find about Cindy. This is journalistic integrity? What or who is being served by this kind of thing?


Is the NYT attempting to locate, for comment, the folks who sold Obama pot and cocaine?

Somehow I doubt it.

Did the NYT launch an effort to dig up dirt on Michelle Obama?

Somehow I doubt it.

There is no such thing as journalistic integrity within the MSM, and there is certainly no such thing within the walls of The Grey Lady.

This election has revealed just how far the MSM is willing to go to influence a national election.

Fine and dandy but I for one am sick unto death with the utter bullshit that the MSM is not biased.

Let the MSM pursue its political agenda, but let's make sure that the American public realizes that the "news" they get from it is in no way objective and not highly filtered.

Herein lies the lack of integrity of the MSM: They peddle the propaganda of their favored ideology and yet, dishonestly, insist that they are objective.

Obviously they are not confident that they can convince voters of the correctness of their editorial opinions, and so they attempt to underscore these opinions with deceitful and highly skewed "news reporting."

It truly is shameful, but it requires the American public to correct.

The MSM, however, is a failing dinosaur, and this is their last hurrah. Four years from now they will either be irrelevant, or reduced to niche ideological news sources.

My bet is that their shameless behavior in this election will, eventually, hasten their extinction.

I have for many years been a subscriber of the Sunday Times because I enjoy reading the various specialized sections, however with each passing week it has become more and more apparent that the Times is working diligently to impose it's political agenda upon all of sectional publications: Books, Arts & Leisure, Sunday Magazine, and even Travel and Style.

Frank Rich was, at best, a mediocre critic, but his willingness (if not obsession) to connect all things problematic to the flaws of the Republican Party, and more specifically, George W Bush caused him to be elevated to the Op-Ed page where he continuously drones on with his hackneyed negativity, just like the One Trick Pony he truly is.

My wife has been pestering me for years to discontinue my subscription, but I am finally reaching the point where I may. Not because I can't stand to be exposed to the NYT's highly biased view of all things, but because I am growing increasingly reluctant to financially support its propaganda machine.

I wish I could say it amazes me that the Left is so vociferous in its hatred for FOX, but when I realize (as with the context of this thread) that they have no tolerance for opposing views and no interest in objectivity I understand.









0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 04:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
The way it works today is that CEOs gets paid way over their worth even when they run the company into the ground (bankruptcy), and they walk away with golden parachutes.


What percentage of CEOs are guilty of this charge?

You seem to assume it is 100% which is simply ridiculous.

Yes, CEOs who run their companies into the ground should not walk away from the ruins highly enriched, but the notion that the proper response to this travesty is to lump everyone who makes more that $200,000 into the same cesspool and tax the **** out of them is at best idiotic, and at worst a clear example of class warfare.





parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 05:04 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Your statement is a clear example of a strawman.

CI never said they all run their companies into the ground.
CI never suggested taxing the **** out of anyone.

Its so nice you defeated an argument CI never made by calling it idiotic and class warfare. Maybe you could discuss the actual argument next time.
 

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