18
   

No wonder Joe the Plumber Is worried About Taxes

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 05:18 pm
@parados,
Oh Lord, the Liberal effin Strawman charge!

Quote:
The way it works today is that CEOs gets paid way over their worth even when they run the company into the ground (bankruptcy), and they walk away with golden parachutes.


This is what he wrote in defense of taxing people who earn over $200,000 a year. (Since I'm one of those people, flog me for thinking that the Obama plan , which CI endorses, will "tax the **** out of me.")

I addressed his actual argument.

If you don't like the way I did it, I'm not surprised, and I certainly won't lose any sleep as a result.

Can you beligerent clowns actually counter arguments instead of making ridiculous and wimpy assertions that they, somehow, aren't "fair?'








cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 05:23 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn, Not only is your hearing bad, but you can't even read correctly. Obama's plan is to reduce taxes for those making less than $250,000, and increase taxes for those making more than $250,000.

How in the world do you make $200,000 if you can't even read numbers correctly?

I also question your ability to remember - anything.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 05:31 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Oh.. so you think a 35%% tax rate is "taxing the **** out of you".


OK.. now that we have that cleared up, carry on with your silly arguments. We wouldn't want you to have to pay the same 43% that those making 95,000 pay on their last $15,000 of income. (28% income tax + 15.3 FICA)
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 05:44 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
since finn and fox think that the "topdogs" are too heavily taxed , i thought this is an appropriate post .
the "top dogs" of the "rescued" U.S. banks will get a fair shot in the arm for the hard work they did trying to topple the world's financial system .
hbg

http://www.newser.com/story/40291/bankers-to-reap-70b-despite-crash.html

helping the underpaid and overtaxed :

Quote:
Bankers to Reap $70B Despite Crash
Posted Oct 18, 08 7:05 PM CDT in Business
(Newser) " Wall Street’s top banks are set to pay their financial workers more than $70 billion in salary and bonuses this year"a tenth of the $700 billion in taxpayer money committed to the bailout"despite the huge drops in share price and cash shortages they are experiencing, the Guardian reports. Morgan Stanley, for example, will dole out $10.7 billion, which at one point last week was more than the bank’s market value.

One bank source said that while the payouts would seem high to a “normal person,” the bonuses are all performance-based.

But critics say firms with shaky capital positions shouldn’t dump billions into bonus pools. The CEO and top traders at Germany’s Deutsche Bank, for example, are waving millions in payouts. “It may well be that by the end of the year the banks start to review the situation,” said one source.


0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 05:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
How in the world do you make $200,000 if you can't even read numbers correctly?


Impressive argument.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 05:58 pm
@parados,
Quote:
We wouldn't want you to have to pay the same 43% that those making 95,000 pay on their last $15,000 of income. (28% income tax + 15.3 FICA)


So you are suggesting that with Obama in office, I will pay no more in taxes than someone who makes $95,000?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:05 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
It is true that Queen Bees everywhere have tolerated higher taxes as a consequence of their success and most don't complain about that. But it has to be profitable for the Queen Bee to hire that line cook or any other employee. Raise the cost of doing business, including taxes, a great deal less profitable, and Queen Bee may decide it just isn't worth it to stay open the extra hours or do the additional investment or take on more risk; she scales back or doesn't expand and the line cook's job is eliminated or is never created.
You act as if the Queen Bee pays for the business 0ut of the $100,000. That is what she makes AFTER she pays for the business. As was pointed out, making $85,000 instead of $90,000 after taxes doesn't raise the costs of her business because that is a separate item. Raise the cost of doing business and her profit goes down so she pays less taxes.


You seem to think that the Queen Bee pays herself a salary and that $85,000 or $90,000 is what she has to spend above and beyond the cost of doing business. Normally people earning in this range are sole proprietors or LLCs in which all earnings are taxed as ordinary income. But she has to plan ahead to use some of this money for future investments, upgrades, new equipment or whatever. So she pays taxes on it, but it is not all hers to spend however she wishes unless she wishes to put the business at higher risk.

This is the fallacy of the whole tax more only those making $250,000 and up concept. People in that range will mostly be small businesses with expenses including a few employees. They pay a hefty income tax on that plus self employment tax in lieu of employer matched social security contributions and that is always a substantial hit. You can dodge some of that by organizing as an S Corp and paying yourself a salary. That does help in dodging some self employment taxes but if you pay yourself $40,000 you're still going to owe taxes of more than $6k for self employment tax PLUS income taxes on the combined total of wages and share distribution and if there is anything left over in the corporation, you will owe corporate taxes on that too.

The United States has the second highest business taxes in the world. The top 5% of wage earners in the USA already pay more than 50% of the taxes. the top 50% of wage earners in the USA pay more than 96% of the taxes.

And as we are obviously slogging through a recession, why would anybody think raising taxes on anybody was the thing to do but certainly why would you raise taxes on the few people who are in a position to help keep the stock market afloat and keep tens of thousands of Americans working?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:13 pm
@Foxfyre,
"The United States has the second highest business taxes in the world"

Bullshit, the tax code is thousands of pages long with exemptions for business, the effective tax is far less than the top line tax on purpose. I would be fine with lowering the taxe rate and getting rid of the exemptions, but the business lobby likes the system. With the current system they who can best corrupt Congress and get an exemption into law, wins.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
What Fox doesn't know and see is that many American corporations pay no income tax.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:19 pm
Any corporation that pays no taxes at all didn't make any money or paid out all profits in salaries--not an uncommon practice in small businesses--but you can be sure that the tax man taxed it there. The fact is that combining the federal taxes with state taxes, and you already have American business at a huge disadvantage. But some of you think it should be taxed even more.

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Mar 18, 2008 - A new study from the Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan tax research group in Washington, shows that most American states tax job providers at a higher rate than any other country in the developed world.

"This is startling news for America's businesses and workers," said Tax Foundation president Scott Hodge, the study's author. "Tax competition for jobs and investment is fierce, and the U.S. continues to fall further and further behind. Our states should be the world's leaders in many things, but high taxation should not be one of them. The high federal corporate tax rate is literally crushing states' competitive abilities. That means fewer jobs for American workers."

Counting the federal rate alone, the U.S. has the world's highest corporate tax rate, but including average sub-national rates (federal plus state in the U.S.), Japan edges out the U.S. for the highest-tax location (see table).

This new study breaks the tax down state-by-state, adding each state's corporate tax rate to the federal corporate tax rate. The results show that 24 states impose, when combined with the federal rate, a higher business tax rate than in any other nation. In fact:

24 states have a combined corporate tax rate higher than top-ranked Japan.
32 states have a combined corporate tax rate higher than third-ranked Germany.
46 states have a combined corporate tax rate higher than fourth-ranked Canada.
All 50 states have a combined corporate tax rate higher than fifth-ranked France.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/23015.html
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
corps do far better at buying exemptions though Congress (lobbyists act as their agent in the buy) , I think that more than half pay nothing....small business don't do as well but still on average they don't pay anything close to the number she claims,
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
the U.S government accountabilty office comes to a conclusion different from foxfire's :

link to complete article : http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1249465620080812?sp=true

Quote:
Study says most corporations pay no U.S. income taxes
Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:54pm EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.


squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:37 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Any corporation that pays no taxes at all didn't make any money or paid out all profits in salaries--not an uncommon practice in small businesses--but you can be sure that the tax man taxed it there. The fact is that combining the federal taxes with state taxes, and you already have American business at a huge disadvantage. But some of you think it should be taxed even more.


This idea that American businesses are taxed to death appears to be a myth:



Quote:
Study says most corporations pay no U.S. income taxes
Tue Aug 12, 2008
12:54pm EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.

More than half of foreign companies and about 42 percent of U.S. companies paid no U.S. income taxes for two or more years in that period, the report said.

During that time corporate sales in the United States totaled $2.5 trillion, according to Democratic Sens. Carl Levin of Michigan and Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, who requested the GAO study.

The report did not name any companies. The GAO said corporations escaped paying federal income taxes for a variety of reasons including operating losses, tax credits and an ability to use transactions within the company to shift income to low tax countries.



http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1249465620080812
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:43 pm
@hamburger,
Sorry, but I'll take the Tax Foundation's analysis any day of the week over something Reuters put together. (Remember that Reuters is part of the MSM and therefore dutifully reports anything Obama says as the way it is.)

Yes, many businesses will show a loss for a year or more over a seven year period, especially if they are doing a lot of upgrades, expansion, and/or retooling or lose a major contract. From the bottom lines I have been seeing these past several months, I am guessing lots and lots and lots of large and small businesses will be showing little or no profits this year due to the housing market collapse.

Do you not think businesses pay a lot more than usual in unusually profitable years too?

Most American businesses are the highest taxed in the world. Anybody, and I do mean ANYBODY who thinks that Barack Obama will be able to fund a trillion dollars in new spending plus give a tax cut to 95% of working Americans by taxing those earning over $250,000 more without destroying American business simply needs to have his/her head examined. Or for Pete's sake, at least stop drinking the kool-ade.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:48 pm
@Foxfyre,
The major media, the government, and more than a few NGA's all confirm the corporate tax picture. If you are going to ignore the major sources of information and cherry pick the ones who tell you what you want to hear then you don't have any interest in the truth.

I think we are done here.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
I'm not ignoring anything. I just trust those who aren't pro anybody in particular to be more reliable these days. When Heritage, Cato, the Tax Foundation et al all agree on the principle of high taxation of US businesses, and none of them have endorsed anybody for President, I believe that is more reliable than any pro-Obama, anti-Bush media source.

You are certainly free to disagree, but dispute the Tax Foundation numbers with any credible source if you can. I haven't seen anything credible to discredit it and I sure as heck won't accept some Reuter reporters interpretation of it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Not only does Fox not listen to facts provided by the major sources that agree, but Fox wants to raise this issue:
Quote:
Most American businesses are the highest taxed in the world. Anybody, and I do mean ANYBODY who thinks that Barack Obama will be able to fund a trillion dollars in new spending plus give a tax cut to 95% of working Americans by taxing those earning over $250,000 more without destroying American business simply needs to have his/her head examined. Or for Pete's sake, at least stop drinking the kool-ade.


What Fox fails to mention is that what Obama said was the there will be a "net savings" between his spending and revenue. That's a major point - again missed by Foxy.

I don't believe he can deliver, but that's another issue.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 07:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

What Fox doesn't know and see is that many American corporations pay no income tax.

But CI, that would mean they have more money and incentive to hire more people! Wait, they aren't doing it. I just don't think it's a priority for some companies.

Low overhead over growth, hell we only want to be CEOs for a few years and then retire, we could care less what happens after that!

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 07:18 pm
@Brandon9000,
you just said, take anything you want by any means neccesary by the way.

there are limits to capitalism, limits that have been reached.

dont swerve left, nor right, straight ahead please.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 07:18 pm
All I'm saying is dispute the numbers with a credible source if you can guys. Otherwise talking the assigned company line just keeps you in step with all the other kool-ade drinkers.
 

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