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The Truth About Women

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 04:09 pm
shewolfnm wrote:

We are too programmed to believe that everything sexual has to equal love , or even true mutual attraction... and sometimes sex is just the primal urge for sex and nothing more.

Realizing that does not make you less of a woman, a person, or even a partner ( if you are in a relationship)
.


This is changing rapidly, one need only look to the explosion in the popularity of the swinger lifestyle, internet hook-up sites, or the way that the youth are sexual to see this. The increasing infidelity rates might also be evidence of this. We seem to be on phase two of the sexual revolution. Being open and honest about our sexual needs and wants is becoming the norm, as is feeling free to go after what we want. Which makes it all the more important to take the time to understand who your mate is and what they want.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 04:13 pm
i agree..
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 04:15 pm
hawkeye10 wrote:
Chai wrote:
hawkeye...care to share your views on how "obama should get his woman in line"? Your words.

maybe he needs to backhand her?


to quote slappy doo hoo....what a load of doucebaggery the both of you, father and son, hand out.


You are not that dim, you know that I said that a candidate needs convince their spouse to keep their public lives tuned into the goals of the campaign, that the spouses are not free agents, that the spouse has no purpose in the public arena other than to be supportive of the candidate. This goes for the Clinton's as well, which I have pointed out to you several times, and still you try to make my comments as being about gender.

Hillary has since South Carolina kept her man in line, Barrack needs to keep his woman in line.

If you are going to parrot my views and arguments, please at least make an attempt to do it honestly.




You're not very good at this....

here's the post I alluded to - in its entirety, nothing left out....

Hillary finally got a clue and put Bill on a leash, Barack needs to do the same with his wife. He needs demonstrate that he can control his wife if he wants to have the job of controlling a national administration. Michelle seriously needs to wise up. Her job is to be supportive and help her husband can get elected and do good work, what she thinks about anything is irrelevant, and being mouthy makes her husband look bad.

crawfish and explain away all you want hawkeye, that is one mofo misogynistic statement.

If you can control your wife, you can control a nation.

Maybe that's why we've had so few good leaders, us pesky wimmens are harder to herd than cats.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 04:16 pm
Hmm..

I agree to a certain extent..

Your reasons ( at least the ones you use to explain your point) on cheating spouses.. I dont agree with 100% but I can only speak from my own experience .
I have met many men ( not dated thank goodness) who cheat just for the fun of it.
They probably have no idea what THEY want so they just get addicted to the chase and the 'forbidden' part of the act.

sad really.

But in my experience, THAT is the norm..
( but, as I said..that is because that is all I have seen.. )
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 04:32 pm
Chai wrote:
crawfish and explain away all you want hawkeye, that is one mofo misogynistic statement.

If you can control your wife, you can control a nation.

Maybe that's why we've had so few good leaders, us pesky wimmens are harder to herd than cats.


Last time I checked "misogyny" was a gender specific word. Considering my argument was directed towards both genders you are not allowed to haul the term misogyny in to describe my statement. We went through this in the other thread but clearly you did not understand. If you want to object to my argument on grounds that sticks to logic and standard definitions of words feel free to do so in the other thread, it is not relevant here however.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 04:32 pm
shewolfnm wrote:
I have met many men ( not dated thank goodness) who cheat just for the fun of it.
They probably have no idea what THEY want so they just get addicted to the chase and the 'forbidden' part of the act.

sad really.

But in my experience, THAT is the norm..
( but, as I said..that is because that is all I have seen.. )
If the allure of sexual variety under the guise of puritan monogamy is "sad", I suggest such critique may lie (pun) more with the precept of puritan monogamy, than with the allure of sexual variety.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 04:35 pm
shewolfnm wrote:
Hmm..

I agree to a certain extent..



Just for the record ^^this post^^ of mine was in reference to hawkeyes post at the top of this page ..
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:24 pm
I have to catch up, having been busy describing some of my past sexual life on another thread. So, who's winning?
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:34 pm
I challenge the posit of one, singular, masculine nature.
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:34 pm
Chumly wrote:
shewolfnm wrote:
I have met many men ( not dated thank goodness) who cheat just for the fun of it.
They probably have no idea what THEY want so they just get addicted to the chase and the 'forbidden' part of the act.

sad really.

But in my experience, THAT is the norm..
( but, as I said..that is because that is all I have seen.. )
If the allure of sexual variety under the guise of puritan monogamy is "sad", I suggest such critique may lie (pun) more with the precept of puritan monogamy, than with the allure of sexual variety.


Current scientific conclusion is than humans are by nature polygamists sexually. Last week I noticed a show on PBS (can't remember the name) where the argument was made by scientists that the human penis head is designed to scoop out other men's semen so that the genetic material is replaced. Evolution and natural selection have recognized and adapted to human nature, the last male to get the female has the upper hand. If scooping out had not been an advantage (if monogamy was normal) it would not have become the standard form. It also makes sense because a woman's tendency towards emotional attachment will recognize the most desirable male, and not let any other males follow.

Note: these are not personal views, they are the conclusions of science. Don't yell at me if you don't like it.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:38 pm
Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex
by Robin Baker

Less than 1 percent of sperm is actually designed to fertilize an egg (the rest are there to block other men's sperm), and that 4 to 10 percent of all children born to married couples are in fact the offspring of other men, usually of higher socioeconomic status, with whom the mother had a short-term relationship.
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:42 pm
Chumly wrote:
I challenge the posit of one, singular, masculine nature.


Masculinity is by definition a closed set of attitudes and behaviours, which are more often found in males than in females. Some men are more or less masculine, and more or less feminine. Ditto for females.

You can't dispute the definition, you can only say that the concept is not useful. Men have tried that idea, found the results not satisfactory, and we are going back to embracing masculinity. This is my view, and not universally agreed to at this point.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:45 pm
Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex. - book reviews
Journal of Sex Research, Feb, 1998 by Michael W. Wiederman

Reviewed by Michael W. Wiederman, Ph.D., Ball State University, Department of Psychological Science, Muncie, IN 47306.

Quote:
What would you say if I told you that women influence their fertility through masturbation? That men adjust the number of sperm in each ejaculate according to the relative likelihood that their female partner may have been unfaithful recently? That women are most likely to have sex with an extradyadic partner near the peak of their monthly fertility and are most likely to have sex with their regular sex partner during the infertile phase? Or that the timing of a woman's orgasm within a given sexual episode of coitus influences whether she will become pregnant from that act of intercourse? These are a just a few of the basic biological phenomena upon which the extremely fascinating and revolutionary book, Sperm Wars, is based.

Many readers of JSR may be unfamiliar with the author, Robin Baker, a biologist working in England, whose primary publication outlet for the unique work conducted with colleague Mark Bellis has been the journal, Animal Behavior (Baker & Bellis, 1993a, b; Bellis & Baker, 1990). These earlier empirical articles were based on questionnaire data as well as analyses of hundreds of human ejaculates collected during masturbation and coitus, including many samples of the "flowback" from women's vaginas. Sperm Wars is also based on more recent work in which Baker and Bellis documented what occurs inside the woman's body at the moments of ejaculation and female orgasm using a fiber-optic endoscope attached to the underside of a man's penis. As Baker commented, those images "completely changed my scientific understanding of what happens at the most critical moments during sex" (p. xvii). Sperm Wars has that effect on its readers as well.

The descriptions of what occurs biologically during sexual activity directly challenge many notions we were taught, and may continue to teach to our students, regarding male and female bodily response during and after sexual activity. Even such sacred notions as sperm existing with the "goal" of seeking and fertilizing the prized egg are turned on their head. Baker describes at least three types of distinctly different sperm, each with an apparently different mission. The "egg-getters," those who match our usual characterization of the typical sperm, in actuality comprise only 1% or less of the sperm in a man's ejaculate. Other sperm appear to function as "blockers" of women's cervical crypts or "egg-killers" who attack foreign sperm. Baker also discusses the discovery of specialized sperm that may kill a man's own egg-getters under certain prescribed circumstances. Lest you think that all of this talk of biology results in a "dry" reading experience, realize that Sperm Wars was written for public consumption, and as such does not contain one formal reference, no mention of other researchers, and no subject index. Instead, the author has taken his insights into the biology of sexual behavior, mixed in a fair amount of speculation, and presents the results through 37 narrative "scenes."

Baker notes that he did not intend for the scenes through which various phenomena are characterized to be pornographic or inherently arousing, yet many of them are very explicit and detailed depictions of both typical and atypical sexual behavior. Immediately following each scene, Baker describes what occurred from the perspective of an evolutionary biologist. That is, from an evolutionary and biological view, why did each actor in the scene behave the way he or she did? Why did each actor's body respond the way it did? And what are the reproductive and interpersonal implications of each? Although the underpinnings of the book include evolutionary theory and natural selection, the reader is not sedated with a lengthy treatise of either.

The insights, observations, and speculations are too numerous to catalogue here, but I will present a couple of them, especially those having to do with sexual phenomena that have been problematic for previous authors to explain from a functional or an evolutionary perspective. The nature of the "sperm wars" around which the book is based have to do with both competition among two or more men's sperm within the same woman, as well as a sort of evolutionary "war" that may occur between the male and female within a given sexual dyad. That is, in the latter type of sperm war, a woman's body may be "trying" to avoid conception from a particular insemination, whereas a man's body might be "trying" to achieve fertilization of her egg (in an evolutionary sense of reproductive fitness). Both types of "wars" are highlighted throughout the book, particularly as various sexual behaviors and experiences fit with the goals and outcomes of each type of battle.

For example, why do so many humans find oral sex arousing and a desirable activity? Of course, the simple answer is "it feels good." But beyond the sheer physical stimulation it provides, why is it arousing? Why is oral sex more desirable to many than manual manipulation of the genitals? Baker posits that, in an ultimate sense, providing oral sex offers a unique opportunity to gather (perhaps subconsciously) information about a partner's reproductive health and (possible) recent infidelity. The first type of sperm war mentioned previously had to do with sperm competition among men. Baker admits this sperm competition is relatively rare (he estimates that approximately 20% of conceptions involve such sperm competition), yet the reproductive implications are strong enough to have shaped dramatically men's and women's sexuality, both biological and psychological. Offering a mate the opportunity to perform oral sex at least communicates recent fidelity (or at least nothing to hide in that regard). That is, performing oral sex offers the possibility to detect, through visual, olfactory, and gustatory cues, secretions left behind by a recent interloper (especially relevant data during our evolutionary history in which douches and baths were nonexistent or infrequent). These hypotheses fit well with another recent book that included consideration of the ultimate functions of oral sex (Kohl & Francoeur, 1995). Baker explains how oral sex, both giving and receiving, evolved to become more or less inherently pleasurable because of the ultimate functions it may have served.

Other writers have attempted to explain the function and evolutionary value of female orgasm, and typically concluded that female orgasm is an unintended evolutionary byproduct or evolved to strengthen pairbonds, (e.g., Fisher, 1992; Symons, 1979). Armed with more recent and relevant data, Baker describes how women's orgasms, although certainly not required for fertilization, can profoundly affect likelihood of conception. After describing at length the vaginal and cervical environments, Baker introduces the concept of a "cervical filter," referring to the type and amount of cervical mucus, cellular debris, ejected sperm, and other organic material. The strength of a woman's cervical filter fluctuates depending on various conditions, one of which is length of time since last orgasm. Orgasm (from masturbation, for example) results in a stronger cervical filter if performed 24 hours after intercourse than orgasm experienced 48 hours after intercourse. The strength of the cervical filter affects the relative ease with which sperm can reach the fallopian tubes, where fertilization typically takes place.

The story does not stop there. Through experiments conducted in his lab, Baker found that timing of female orgasm during or around the occurrence of vaginal intercourse further affects the likelihood of fertilization. During female orgasm the woman's cervix dips and the opening to the cervix gapes open, much like an elephant's trunk while taking in water. If a seminal pool is present in the vagina at that point, a significant number of sperm will be helped along by this "up-suck" phenomenon. So, to maximize conception, a woman should experience an orgasm immediately after a man ejaculates. If the woman experiences orgasm when a seminal pool is not present, vaginal secretions are likely to be "sucked up," thereby increasing the acidity of the cervical environment. Accordingly, female orgasm prior to male ejaculation strengthens the cervical filter and reduces the likelihood of fertilization. In this context, Baker also discusses the role of nocturnal orgasms in women's sexuality.

I was fascinated by this and other material in Sperm Wars, yet as I try to convey some of it here I am struck by how sterile the bare information seems. One strength of the book is Baker's ability to weave didactic coverage of material with his narrative scenes in which realistic sexual scenarios are used to provide a context for what the biological phenomena "look like," or actually how they play out, in real life. Accordingly, I encourage the reader of this review not to judge the book by my meager description.

Despite the praise I lavish on Baker and Sperm Wars, the book is not without its flaws and shortcomings. On a very minor note, there are several places where the reader encounters a British use of a word or phrase that an American is not likely to understand fully. On a conceptual level, those involved in the social sciences may feel as though something is missing. Baker's background is biology, so it should not be surprising that the book is weaker in providing psychological links between biological function and overt behavior. As just one example, Baker describes how men adjust the number of sperm in their ejaculate according to the proportion of time since last intercourse during which the man's partner was out of his sight (and hence potentially available for rival insemination). What is missing is an attempted answer to the fascinating questions of what psychological mechanisms are involved in performing such a "calculation" and what other relationship characteristics might affect the adjustment of sperm in ejaculate.

Ultimately, in discussing most phenomena, Baker relies on a sort of anthropomorphic presentation of men's and women's bodies. That is, he translates an ultimate reproductive advantage associated with certain sexual behaviors into a kind of hidden agenda on the part of men's and women's bodies. At times, human bodies are presented as sort of having minds of their own, which frequently result in a "conflict between the conscious brain and the subconscious body" (p. 109). Baker starts with the assumption that "whenever the body is intent upon a particular course of action, it generates an urge to perform that action" (pp. 166-167) and concludes that most of the strategies shown by men and women in relation to ejaculation and orgasm are subconscious--orchestrated by the body via sequences of mood, libido, and sensitivity to stimulation. Indeed, most of the behavior described in this book is similarly subconscious, the product of genetic programming rather than cerebral rationalization. (p. 199)

Social scientists more concerned with conscious processes and social forces may be somewhat uncomfortable with these basic assumptions upon which Sperm Wars is based. In a general sense, there is a problem of teleology as Baker frequently seems to jump from the existence of a sexual behavior to its ultimate reproductive function (consequence) to an inherent motivation on the part of the individual engaging in the behavior.

Also, even though Baker explained that it was not his intention nor belief that Sperm Wars contains sexist views (p. xxiv), some very controversial ideas are sure to offend some and anger others. One primary example involves Baker's position on sexual aggression within relationships, from "rough-and-tumble sex play" to forced intercourse. Baker makes few distinctions between these two types of aggression and attributes both to female testing of male partners' strength and ability to overcome her resistance. "To test this [ability], she has to resist first verbally, then physically. The stronger and more realistic her resistance, the better the test" (p. 223). Baker notes that "n species such as humans that form long-term relationships, rough-and-tumble sexual behavior is most important during early stages of courtship. Once a woman has tested a man's ability to force himself on her, she need not do it often thereafter" (pp. 223-224). I do not even have to elaborate on the ideological problem many readers would have with this perspective. Empirically, data are needed to support such an interpretation of the reproductive "function" of sexual aggression (playful or otherwise) within couples.

Despite a lack of psychological underpinning and some politically incorrect views, Sperm Wars truly is a revolutionary look at human sexual behavior. Rather than attempting to explain only certain aspects of sexual behavior, or isolated sexual phenomena, Baker bites off large pieces in his attempt to explain human sexuality. From routine sexual functioning, to extradyadic sex, to fantasies and erotica, to masturbation and wet dreams, Baker weaves empirical findings, evolutionary theory, speculation, and narrative illustration into a very readable account. The academic who reads Sperm Wars will not likely swallow everything whole, but I can guarantee that the experience will forever alter how the reader views human sexual behavior.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_n1_v35/ai_20746731/pg_1
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:47 pm
hawkeye10 wrote:
Wow, you have a lot to learn......Some women are like that, those are the ones you want to avoid. You want to pick a woman who wants you, one who f*cks your brains out willingly and joyfully because she wants you.


As JustBrooke pointed out, I was trying to point out to do is to pick a woman to wants to f*ck you willingly and joyfully. You never mentioned any other attributes which might be important, meaningful, useful, whathaveyou. I was NOT trying to demean the meaningfulness of sex, be it making love or f*cking. I had no comment on that. My comment was about your advice to a young man who seems cynical enough without your help.

I notice you frequently attribute to the people who argue with you all kinds of inadequacies. I don't know how to do that fancy C&Ping from various posts, so maybe you should have a look over them to see what I mean. Things like we're sexually inadequate, can't please our men, blah blah. That's the sign of a very poor debater. Stick to the issue, not the personalities.

Just because you haven't come right out and called someone a name doesn't mean you haven't tried to insult them. You have.

In my world, the people I know do not cheat. That's all I can speak from. There's a huge discrepancy between your stats and those Francis provided. Which are we to believe? I will go on the people I know. There are plenty of people who have sexually inadequate spouses who do NOT cheat, simply because they love them and don't want to be with another that way.

From a previous thread, you sounded like your marriage is more open to sexual encounters/innovativeness. If that's the case, that's your business. But please don't belittle or assign problems to people who choose not to operate that way.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:48 pm
hawkeye10 wrote:
Masculinity is by definition a closed set of attitudes and behaviours,
False, it's in part a social construct, thus it's definition is subject to the presumption societal normatives.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 05:49 pm
Ah. I think I'm on the same planet as Hawkeye, but might not be re Chumley. Naturally, I could be confused. Haven't read chumley's latest posts.
Give me 24 hours.

I'll say I think of chumley's posts on women as dissociative, but maybe he has a hell of a woman on his hands. But then, why the choice? the enjoyment of sexual war?



Both Hawkeye and Chumley seem to thrive on a kind of sexual flamewar, though I'm less convinced re Hawkeye. I'm not sure they get a lot of the rest of us don't live this so dramatically. Sure, lots of examples of flames, but lots of examples of not.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 06:02 pm
hawkeye10 wrote:
Last week I noticed a show on PBS (can't remember the name) where the argument was made by scientists that the human penis head is designed to scoop out other men's semen so that the genetic material is replaced.


If you do remember it PLEASE post it.
I would love to see that.. That sounds really interesting
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 06:19 pm
ossobuco wrote:
......but maybe he has a hell of a woman on his hands.
My wife is a tough cookie, very much like the cliché masculine redneck persona in some ways.

She is quite likely to not only interrupt me, but to opine without weighing the views, and then simply order me about.

It can be amusing/endearing or irritating/distancing dependent on circumstance.
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 06:30 pm
Hasn't this topic been in three threads today? Is that a good sign? Does it mean that we can't stay on topic?
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JustBrooke
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 06:37 pm
Chumly wrote:


She is quite likely to not only interrupt me, but to opine without weighing the views, and then simply order me about.

It can be amusing/endearing or irritating/distancing dependent on circumstance.


Chumly? I bet your wife never brings you a dull moment! She sounds like someone that would be fun to be around.
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