SHOULD SEN. LARRY CRAIG RESIGN?

and if toe-tapping codes are too complicated, there are the hanky codes

http://www.gaycityusa.com/hankycodes.htm

Bill Frist either knew or didn't know how those codes work.

Shocked

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Let's face it, Craig blew it. Or rather, he didn't get a chance to because he was arrested. Ignorance isn't always bliss, often it's just a good way to get in trouble. The interrogation tape is a comedy exposing yet another Republican anti-gay hypocrite. Perhaps the Senate should order him back into the Senate's closet.

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ehBeth wrote:

Times have changed - not sure how I feel about the degree of interest in politicians' personal lives (slowly coming to Canada from the U.S.) - but politicians have got to deal with the fact that they are public figures, and things don't stay hidden as they used to.

Especially if you make bashing gays part of your political program. Once you do that, your own gayness rightly becomes an issue of public interest.

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parados wrote:

happycat wrote:

Please don't make me resort to the hypothetical child in the bathroom again. [/color]

But, but.... what about the hypothetical child in the whorehouse?

I suppose you could always listen to some of Richard Pryor's old stuff. :wink:

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Lightwizard wrote:

Let's face it, Craig blew it. Or rather, he didn't get a chance to because he was arrested. Ignorance isn't always bliss, often it's just a good way to get in trouble. The interrogation tape is a comedy exposing yet another Republican anti-gay hypocrite. Perhaps the Senate should order him back into the Senate's closet.

[URL=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4610/villagepeoplepolicemanlg7.jpg[/img][/URL]
Well, if you took a look at the policeman who arrested Craig, you'd understand why the senator was so easily fooled.

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The problem for me isn't that he attempted to engage in gay sex. It's that he attempted to cheat on his wife.

Gay, bi, or straight doesn't matter... he's supposed to be monogamous.

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DrewDad wrote:

The problem for me isn't that he attempted to engage in gay sex. It's that he attempted to cheat on his wife.

Gay, bi, or straight doesn't matter... he's supposed to be monogamous.

But that's no one's business but his and his wife's.
Why is he supposed to be monogamous? Does it say that in his Senator license?

He's supposed to represent his constituents. I doubt if the people of Idaho wish to be represented by someone that has such poor judgement to alledgedly attempt to have any kind of sex in an airport bathroom. They'll make their opinion on this known at election time....if he lasts that long.
What it boils down to is he let everyone down. His words were empty.

Did I actually hear him say in that tape, something to the effect of "I'm not gay....not that there's anything wrong with that?

hmmmm.....so he's a Seinfeld fan.

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happycat wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
The problem for me isn't that he attempted to engage in gay sex. It's that he attempted to cheat on his wife.

Gay, bi, or straight doesn't matter... he's supposed to be monogamous.

But that's no one's business but his and his wife's.

I guess I always considered it the hooker's business.

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parados - not hooker..... "leased woman"

:wink:

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No. I don't think Craig should resign. I don't think he did anything that warranted any criminal charges in the first place. Tapping your foot on the floor while you sit on the toilet is not a crime. Reaching down to pick up a piece of toilet paper that was littering the floor while you're sitting on the toilet is not a crime. The fact that the plainclothes airport security officer ostensibly viewed the shoe tap as an implied "solicitation to engage in a lewd act" does not convert a shoe tap into a criminal act. I listened to the taped interview. There was no probable cause to arrest Craig. The security officer's oppressive conduct was outrageous.

In Craig's position, the mere accusation--even if it is false or unwarranted--would be a scandal that would ruin his political career. The airport security officer played upon Craig's fears and his vulnerability and essentially blackmailed him into pleading guilty to disorderly conduct.

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ehBeth wrote:

and if toe-tapping codes are too complicated, there are the hanky codes

http://www.gaycityusa.com/hankycodes.htm

Bill Frist either knew or didn't know how those codes work.

that gay hanky stuff is really old...are those codes still being used?

I remember learning about them from some movie from the 70's with Al Pacino.

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You can't get arrested for cheating on your wife. The laws for lewd conduct in Senator Craigs state are a bit more stringent but even then, the trouble to move one's foot under the wall of the stall to touch feet and the typical hand signal under the wall is just too obvious. Judges in all states will usually accept a guilty plea on disturbing the peace because of the possibility of entrapment. Often bisexual men won't cultivate sex in gay bars or and any social gathering, especially in that state, for fear of being identified. To me, soliciting sex in a public restroom is anathema. There would be no difference if a heterosexual slipped into the lady's room and made the same overtures. There are always areas in any big city where it's known as a cruising spot, where one picks up a trick by conversation with no touching. There's rarely grounds for arrest in most states if the solicitation is inferred and there's coaxing entrapment conversation by the plainclothesman. Of course, unless it's a day and night spot where there are hiding places like LA's Griffith Park area, it can be relatively safe. The LA police rarely parole the area but I do know there have been arrests for hanky-panky behind some bushes. Gives further meaning to, "Ah, go rent a motel room."

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Which LA park was George Michaels's arrested in a few years ago?

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Debra Law wrote:

No. I don't think Craig should resign. I don't think he did anything that warranted any criminal charges in the first place. Tapping your foot on the floor while you sit on the toilet is not a crime. Reaching down to pick up a piece of toilet paper that was littering the floor while you're sitting on the toilet is not a crime. The fact that the plainclothes airport security officer ostensibly viewed the shoe tap as an implied "solicitation to engage in a lewd act" does not convert a shoe tap into a criminal act. I listened to the taped interview. There was no probable cause to arrest Craig. The security officer's oppressive conduct was outrageous.

In Craig's position, the mere accusation--even if it is false or unwarranted--would be a scandal that would ruin his political career. The airport security officer played upon Craig's fears and his vulnerability and essentially blackmailed him into pleading guilty to disorderly conduct.

You are worong on this one, Debra. Soliciting sex is definitely a crime whether it is done verbally or non-verbally. Period. If he was innocent, he should have fought it. But anyone listening to that tape can tell Craig is lying to the cop. Carig picked up a piece of paper that wasn't even there. Even if it was, who in the world would pick up a piece of trash in a toilet?

Fundamentally, it is up to the people of Idaho and from everything I hear they want him out. They believe he is lying and are outraged that he did not disclose this 78 days ago.

Again, it is tragic that this kind of activity goes on among closeted male homosexuals. The fact is that an openly gay man has no chance of being elected dogcatcher in Idaho.

As much as I would like to take delight in the irony of yet another self-loathing gay Republican hypocrite having the tables turned on him, I have nothing but compassion for this man. I hope somehow that he finds the wisdom enough to face his true nature.

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Debra Law wrote:

No. I don't think Craig should resign. I don't think he did anything that warranted any criminal charges in the first place. Tapping your foot on the floor while you sit on the toilet is not a crime. Reaching down to pick up a piece of toilet paper that was littering the floor while you're sitting on the toilet is not a crime. The fact that the plainclothes airport security officer ostensibly viewed the shoe tap as an implied "solicitation to engage in a lewd act" does not convert a shoe tap into a criminal act. I listened to the taped interview. There was no probable cause to arrest Craig. The security officer's oppressive conduct was outrageous.

In Craig's position, the mere accusation--even if it is false or unwarranted--would be a scandal that would ruin his political career. The airport security officer played upon Craig's fears and his vulnerability and essentially blackmailed him into pleading guilty to disorderly conduct.

It depends on who you believe.

Craig didn't just 'tap his foot,' according to the arrest report, he was staring into the stall the officer was occupying, for a few minutes. Severe violation of bathroom etiquette.

According to the arrest report, he 'touched' his foot against the officer's in the next stall. Severe violation of bathroom etiquette and not something that could happen by accident.

Cycloptichorn

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eoe wrote:

Which LA park was George Michaels's arrested in a few years ago?

Will Rogers State Park which has a expansive sand area by the Pacific at Santa Monica/Malibu and is a gay beach. There's a picture I couldn't link to here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/76011.stm

Other sources on the Web have been clearer about what Michaels was doing -- he had his wanger out, fondling it which is lewd conduct in public view. I believe he also had it reduced to disturbing the peace (officer)! Very Happy

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Roxxxanne wrote:

You are worong on this one, Debra. Soliciting sex is definitely a crime whether it is done verbally or non-verbally. Period.

Can you give me the citation to the Minnesota statute that defines soliciting sex as a crime?

Although engaging in a lewd and lascivious act in a public place might be a crime (Minn. Stat. 617.23), the mere solicitation of sex is not a crime.

Even if you say, "Hey buddy, do you want to engage in a lewd and lascivious act right here in public," that would not be a crime in Minnesota because Minnesota doesn't have a solicitation statute.

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Debra Law is correct, of course. This was a borderline case for any judge, so a plea of disturbing the public is pretty common. In other words, there was no exposure nor overt language used. It's a borderline case of entrapment which a really good attorney might fight for. The trouble with that is the officer would have to make the first move. In other words, shove his foot under the wall to touch Senator Craig's. Of course, you know they do not use unattractive undercover cops for this work. You have to be a hunk or a pretty boy! Verbal solicitation is usually not in any statutes in any state -- in other words, undercover cops don't go into gay bars and "make themselves available" by striking up a conversation and asking questions like, "What would we do in bed?" In the past, unless someone was really, drunk -- that's just too easy to pick up a suspicion that this isn't a normal pickup. However, public places like restrooms which are in gay cruising areas but heterosexual males of all ages also use that facility are a target. It's nearly always because of complaints.

Judges, at least in the area of LA and Orange County, were regularly throwing cases out of court when the solicitation was in a gay bar. Then there's the question of the restroom in the gay bar is private property, which the Will Rogers State Park was a public restroom as well as the one Senator Craig went into.

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Debra Law wrote:

In Craig's position, the mere accusation--even if it is false or unwarranted--would be a scandal that would ruin his political career. The airport security officer played upon Craig's fears and his vulnerability and essentially blackmailed him into pleading guilty to disorderly conduct.

Having heard the tape, I now agree. I must admit I was strongly anti-Craig, based on what I'd read in my newspaper about his anti-gay views. But the tape yanked me out of this. After the police officer asked Craig to give him his story, he gave an innocent version of it. The police officer repeatedly intimidated Craig with remarks like "I'm very disappointed in you", "I'm not stupid", etc. Having intimidated Craig, the officer said "now lets start this over", and Craig restarted telling his story. Again, it was innocent, and again, the police officer replied with "I'm disappointed in you" etc.. The tape ends as the officer mutters "embarrassing ... embarrassing".

Did Craig solicit sex, then lie to the police officer arresting him? Or was he the innocent victim of an arrest-happy officer, and plead guilty just to keep things quiet? The tape isn't telling us. It is consistent with both versions of the story.

I don't think anyone has posted a link pointing to the tape yet. Here is one, courtesy of the New York Times.

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SHOULD SEN. LARRY CRAIG RESIGN?

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