THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
How you could imagine that those who have unsuccessfully prosecuted the war - the Administration and DoD - bear less responsibility for our failures there than Leftists who aren't happy with the war at all, is ridiculous and unsupportable by fact.

Those western leftists are regularly being quoted by the MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in their propaganda efforts to enlist more members in their effort. Obviously they perceive those western leftists as their unintentional or intentional allies.

I can prove to you that Bushco's mistakes have lead to our problems in Iraq; you on the other hand have zero proof for your assertion that those who criticize the war have caused a majority of the problems.

"Bushco's mistakes" have contributed to our problems in Iraq. Western leftist behavior has contributed to our problems in Iraq. The MMONM have contributed to our problems in Iraq more than both "Bushco's mistakes" and western leftist behavior.

You claim that you can prove that "Bushco's mistakes" lead to our problems in Iraq. Please proceed to prove that.

Please do not forget to include in your proof that nothing else lead to our problems in Iraq.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Our lack of involvement would only exacerbate the problems in Iraq far more.

Sorry, but you've been wrong about everything else having to do with this war; why should anyone believe you?

I'd like for you to outline good reasons why you believe you have any credibility left to make such assertions.

Cycloptichorn

I'd like for you to outline good reasons why you believe you have any credibility left to make such assertions.

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
How you could imagine that those who have unsuccessfully prosecuted the war - the Administration and DoD - bear less responsibility for our failures there than Leftists who aren't happy with the war at all, is ridiculous and unsupportable by fact.

Those western leftists are regularly being quoted by the MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in their propaganda efforts to enlist more members in their effort. Obviously they perceive those western leftists as their unintentional or intentional allies.

I can prove to you that Bushco's mistakes have lead to our problems in Iraq; you on the other hand have zero proof for your assertion that those who criticize the war have caused a majority of the problems.

"Bushco's mistakes" have contributed to our problems in Iraq. Western leftist behavior has contributed to our problems in Iraq. The MMONM have contributed to our problems in Iraq more than both "Bushco's mistakes" and western leftist behavior.

You claim that you can prove that "Bushco's mistakes" lead to our problems in Iraq. Please proceed to prove that.

Please do not forget to include in your proof that nothing else lead to our problems in Iraq.

Cycloptichorn

Show me a quote from a MMONM Rolling Eyes

with his/her name who has quoted a "leftist" with a direct quote from the leftist in question and his/her name. I bet you anything you can't do it.

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Quote:

You claim that you can prove that "Bushco's mistakes" lead to our problems in Iraq. Please proceed to prove that.

Please do not forget to include in your proof that nothing else lead to our problems in Iraq.

First, I never claimed that 'nothing else' has lead to our problems in Iraq. You are slipping into hyperbole here.

Here's what I said -

Quote:

I've said many times - lack of confidence in the leadership has caused more than half of the problems in this war.

Which was inaccurate, actually - I should have said 'I lack confidence in the leadership, who have caused more than half the problems in this war.'

You respond with a screed about leftists that does nothing.

Bushco -

Didn't find any WMD
Didn't plan for the post-war period
Didn't use enough troops initially and has been playing catch-up since
Didn't keep the power and water running during the 4-6 months after the war well
Didn't secure explosives and weapons dumps post-war
Didn't close the Iran or Syrian borders (big mistake)
Didn't put together a competent team for rebuilding Iraq
Didn't keep the Iraqi Army together, but instead disbanded them - mistake
Didn't keep abuses such as Abu Ghraib and Bagram AFB murders from happening, and
Didn't handle the situation well when they did happen
Didn't understand the nature of the Sunni-Shia conflict at all
Didn't provide oversight of contractors and waste in Iraq at all
Didn't provide adequate armor for our troops or their vehicles
...

I could go on all day with the mistakes, caused directly by failures in management.

Other than the phrases repeated by enemy leaders - who are only taken as authorities who tell the truth when they praise Bush's domestic enemies, btw - you have zero evidence that leftists are responsible for our failures in Iraq. Even including those statements, you don't have evidence; only inferences and assumptions.

Cycloptichorn

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To add to Cyclo's list:

Our vets are still being denied proper health care after they return home. (There was a revealing tv program last weekend on this very subject.)
The soldiers now being sent to Iraq are ill-equipped and untrained to fight in the middle of this kind of war.
Several "surge" used in the past didn't help in subsequent periods.
Iran has been involved in Iraq politics before our involvement in Iraq.
Most of our allies have already left or are planning to leave Iraq.

Righties can blame the lefties for all these problems - created and mismanaged by Bush and his henchmen.

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Our lack of involvement would only exacerbate the problems in Iraq far more.

Sorry, but you've been wrong about everything else having to do with this war; why should anyone believe you?

I'd like for you to outline good reasons why you believe you have any credibility left to make such assertions.

Cycloptichorn

I'd like for you to outline good reasons why you believe you have any credibility left to make such assertions.

From day one - hell, day t-30 - I have said that we would find zero WMD, that this would be a disaster caused both by idiotic leadership and a failure by Westerners to understand the social dynamics of the region. By my count it's a pretty much spot on assessment of the situation.

I have consistently predicted that things will continue to get worse, that the attacks and offensives undertaken by the Bush admin would not be effective in lowering the levels of casualties, and that we would continue to alienate more allies around the world.

Contrast this to your rosy predictions and it's easy to see that I have been far, far more accurate in my negative predictions than you have in your positive ones. And I actually buy your excuse - that the Bush crew haven't done what was necessary or correct, the whole time.

Cycloptichorn

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revel wrote:

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As far as I am aware nothing has basically changed since the last time Blair said it was the wrong time to leave. I doubt anything will change too much for better in 2008, so why not now? We could be there for ten more years and still not "win."

We could be there for another generation and still not "win."

We could be there for another two generations and still not "win."

We could be there for another week, or another month, or another year, or another decade, or another century and still not "win."

We must win no matter how long it takes.

One thing that is for damn sure: we cannot win by choosing to lose.

The price of failure to win in Iraq is enormous.

We could "win" in another week, or in another month, or in another year, or in another decade, or in another generation, or in another two generations, or in another century.

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revel wrote:

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Show me a quote from a MMONM with his/her name who has quoted a "leftist" with a direct quote from the leftist in question and his/her name. I bet you anything you can't do it.

Bin Laden, Zarqawi, and Zawahiri have been recorded and subsequently rebroadcast by the Liberal Media as saying exactly what many of our Congressional Democrats had previously, repeatedly said.

Do such rebroadcast recordings constitute direct enough quotes for you?

If so, I'll try to get you a link to one or more of them.

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ican, Do you understand anything about logistics? Probably not, because there is no possible way to win this war in Iraq with 150,000 troops. We don't have the necessary military strength (volunteer military) to win this war. That's the primary reality of this war.

We will continue to send our men and women into this war illequipped to win, because there is never enough troops to win. All it ensures is that more of them will get killed and maimed.

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Quote:

Do such rebroadcast recordings constitute direct enough quotes for you?

No, they most certainly do not.

Just because the enemy leaders agree with the Dems that Bush is a fool who keeps doing the exact wrong thing doesn't make either of them wrong at all, or prove anything about who is assisting or helping anyone.

Cycloptichorn

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Actually I would still like direct quotes from each respective person in question regardless of what it does or does not prove.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
First, I never claimed that 'nothing else' has lead to our problems in Iraq. You are slipping into hyperbole here.

Here's what I said -

Quote:

I've said many times - lack of confidence in the leadership has caused more than half of the problems in this war.

You also said: "I can prove to you that Bushco's mistakes have lead to our problems in Iraq ..."

Among other things I also said: " 'Bushco's mistakes' have contributed to our problems in Iraq. Western leftist behavior has contributed to our problems in Iraq. The MMONM have contributed to our problems in Iraq more than both "Bushco's mistakes" and western leftist behavior."
...
Cycloptichorn

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That's the whole point - I can prove that Bushco made mistakes (it isn't even a question anymore) and you can prove that our enemies have had success in causing problems for us and the Iraqis; but you cannot prove that Western Leftists have caused problems in Iraq, and certainly cannot prove that they are more responsible for the problems than the Bush Admin - your contention.

Cycloptichorn

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revel wrote:

Actually I would still like direct quotes from each respective person in question regardless of what it does or does not prove.

Again I say to you, revel:

Quote:

Do such rebroadcast recordings constitute direct enough quotes for you?

If so, I'll try to get you a link to one or more of them.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

That's the whole point - I can prove that Bushco made mistakes (it isn't even a question anymore) and you can prove that our enemies have had success in causing problems for us and the Iraqis; but you cannot prove that Western Leftists have caused problems in Iraq, and certainly cannot prove that they are more responsible for the problems than the Bush Admin - your contention.

Cycloptichorn

I did not ask you to prove your self-evident assertion that Bushco made mistakes.

I asked you to do what you said you could do: "I can prove to you that Bushco's mistakes have lead to our problems in Iraq ..."

It is true that I cannot "prove that Western Leftists have caused problems in Iraq, and certainly cannot prove that they are more responsible for the problems than the Bush Admin."

It is also true that it is self-evident that Western Leftists have caused problems in Iraq. It is a judgment call whether or not Western Leftists have caused more problems in Iraq than the Bush Admin.

I say Western Leftists have caused more problems in Iraq than the Bush Admin.

You say I cannot prove Western Leftists have caused more problems in Iraq than the Bush Admin.

My lack of ability to prove this to your satisfaction is not in itself proof that Western Leftists have not caused more problems in Iraq than the Bush Admin.

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I contend that you can't prove that Western Leftists have caused any problems in Iraq. I invite you to do so, in detail, or retract your allegations.

You know that I can prove that Bushco. mistakes in Iraq have lead to our problems there, so why waste time with that?

Plz be specific about exactly how I, as a Western Leftist, and others like me, have caused specific problems in Iraq. Make sure you leave your assumptions and inferences out of it and stick to facts, plz.

Cycloptichorn

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ican711nm wrote:

revel wrote:
Actually I would still like direct quotes from each respective person in question regardless of what it does or does not prove.

Again I say to you, revel:

Quote:
Do such rebroadcast recordings constitute direct enough quotes for you?

If so, I'll try to get you a link to one or more of them.

Not unless it also shows the direct quotes from "leftist" and who said it and both quote are enough alike to look like bin Laden (or whoever) was indeed quoting from the left. Saying about the same thing is not the same as quoting.

How could people like me have had any kind of influence on whether WMD was found or the infighting between factions or even the insurgents. We can cheer all we like, perhaps it would go a little way in for our troops morale so they would what--fight harder? It won't make any difference to the insurgents agenda or the fighting between the factions in Iraq no what we say.

Furthermore, I believe the war was wrong, I believe most of the events following the war was wrong, I will continue to say what I believe. If we are so weak that we can't take dissent, we need to buck up.

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Not only will our discussing Iraq make any difference to the insurgents, but as a democracy, it's our responsibility to discuss issues that affect all of us.

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I've been looking up the numbers for civilian deaths in Iraq today. I thought I might post this here as well:

Quote:

In November and December 2006, 6,376 civilians were killed violently in Iraq - 4,731 of them in Baghdad alone.

source

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And those are the reported deaths - how many are lost, buried in the desert, or blown to bits and unrecognizable?

Cycloptichorn

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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

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