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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:33 pm
You're simply wrong about a few points.

First, we aren't really fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq. The troops that we are fighting there don't represent AQ in any meaningful fashion. They are the equivalent of expendables. We could kill each and every AQ-affiliated fighter in Iraq, and we wouldn't be denting the actual AQ organization. The whole 'we're fighting them in Iraq so we don't fight them here' story is a complete farce, one that mis-understands the nature of AQ and asymmetrical warfare. You should realize that our fighting them in Iraq does not impair their ability to fight us here if they wish!

Second, your prognostications of doom if we don't succeed in Iraq are mere hyperbole. You have no special knowledge or insight that allows you to predict what will happen if we leave. I am constantly reminded of the exact same sorts of prognostications which came from your side of the fence during the end of the whole Vietnam fiasco; those who said that we'd be speaking Russian, that the whole region would collapse, were completely wrong.

On one hand, we have things that we know are true - if we leave Iraq, our soldiers won't be getting killed there. We won't be spending money there. On the other, we have guesses about what will happen if we leave, presented by those who are too proud to admit that we were in error. I find facts to be more compelling than guesses when forming arguments, but apparently that isn't true in your case.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:

...
We are wasting money in Iraq that can be spent at home to help the people living in the Gulf Coast of the US of A. They are being ignored while we waste billions in Iraq.

There remains 600 million federal dollars waiting for the governor of Louisiana and the mayor of New Orleans to spend rebuilding New Orleans, et cetera. Neither of these people are competent enough to do their jobs. All they're capable of is graft and blaming others for their own incapacities. Private folks have rebuilt far more than these lousy Louisiana governments.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:57 pm
The reason the Iraq commander, central commander and Bush can't agree on troop striength is very simple. They don't have a solution.

ican, What is it that you don't understand? We're throwing money away in Iraq by poor management of the money while American citizens are doing without the necessary financial support to reconstruct the Gulf States.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 06:53 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You're simply wrong about a few points.

First, we aren't really fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq. The troops that we are fighting there don't represent AQ in any meaningful fashion. They are the equivalent of expendables. We could kill each and every AQ-affiliated fighter in Iraq, and we wouldn't be denting the actual AQ organization. The whole 'we're fighting them in Iraq so we don't fight them here' story is a complete farce, one that mis-understands the nature of AQ and asymmetrical warfare. You should realize that our fighting them in Iraq does not impair their ability to fight us here if they wish!

You are misinformed about our fighting al-Qaeda in Iraq. We are fighting al-Qaeda in Iraq in addition to the others according to multiple news sources including ABC, CBS, and NBS.

Second, your prognostications of doom if we don't succeed in Iraq are mere hyperbole. You have no special knowledge or insight that allows you to predict what will happen if we leave. I am constantly reminded of the exact same sorts of prognostications which came from your side of the fence during the end of the whole Vietnam fiasco; those who said that we'd be speaking Russian, that the whole region would collapse, were completely wrong.

Yes, I do have special knowledge or insight that allows me to predict what will happen if we leave. I lived through WWII and observed directly the terrible consequences of refusing to accept the reality of what tyrants were capable of doing and intending to do until the tyrants actually did it. In brief, that delay in accepting that reality cost millions of lives.

In the case of Vietnam, our refusal to accept reality cost 3 million lives after we fled.


On one hand, we have things that we know are true - if we leave Iraq, our soldiers won't be getting killed there. We won't be spending money there. On the other, we have guesses about what will happen if we leave, presented by those who are too proud to admit that we were in error. I find facts to be more compelling than guesses when forming arguments, but apparently that isn't true in your case.

Facts about the present are not by themselves sufficiently compelling to guide me in my judgments about what will in fact probably happen, if we choose a certain course of action. I allow my experience and knowledge of historical as well as current trends and sequences of events to influence my judgment. One idea is that one can successfully predict the future from what is currently true and ignore what has influenced the future in similar cases in the past. I think that a simpleton idea, because it encourages those who believe it to keep repeating the mistakes of the past in the naive hope that repeating the mistakes of the past will accomplish different results in the future.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 06:20 am
Iraq fears being caught in middle of U.S.-Iran tensions

Quote:


Clearly, Iraq is not in charge of its own country if the US can get away with bombing Iranians inside Iraq in order to get rid of Iranian influence inside Iraq. I don't buy that BS argument about how the Iranians are funding the insurgency when it is the Sunnis who are the insurgency who are funded by the Saudis and other gulf states. If the Bush administration was serious about wanting to cut off funding for the insurgency it would go after the Saudis who are funding it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:04 am
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/1/132416/1227

Quote:
I remember doing a nightsweep and when I got back on the base at Hurricane Point we got back really late and the guys on this platoon were bragging how they shot up innocent people and they bragged about it, how they just shot up, that night, innocent people and it was kinda like a joke. They were saying 'Look at that guy, I shot him in the stomach and he was running.'
This platoon used to have brain matter from people they had killed from .50 Cals. They used to grab brain matter and bring it on the base and put it into the refrigerator. They literally went crazy. I know this isn't an isolated incident, this happens everyday in Iraq. The news doesn't catch it. No one's going to confess to these things unless they get caught.

The Rules of Engagement got so bad in Iraq that if you did get engaged you just opened up on the city. The day I got wounded we went, in reaction to whiskey two platoon, they were in the marketplace, the souk, and they had one or two pop offs from an AK and they just completely opened up on the whole market. And I remember driving through in the humvees checking out the area and I remember seeing bodies on the sidewalks, broken glass and blood everywhere. At that, at...(he is trying to control his voice)...it's, it's difficult when you see things like that.


Everything isn't sunny in Iraq; I don't want the war to end to gain motherf*cking political power or other such idiotic and insulting f*cking reasons, but to try and stop things like the above.... Evil or Very Mad

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:06 am
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Interesting non-sequitur there, Ican, seeing as Soros has nothing to do with the war in Iraq at all

Cycloptichon

Malarkey! Soros along with his fellow gangsters are doing whatever they can--investing millions in buying who and what they can--to cause the US to fail in Iraq.


It would be a mistake to preoccupy ourselves with Soros. Meanwhile, there have been terrorist scares involving "Mooninites".
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/1/132416/1227

Quote:
I remember doing a nightsweep ... it's difficult when you see things like that.


Everything isn't sunny in Iraq; I don't want the war to end to gain motherf*cking political power or other such idiotic and insulting f*cking reasons, but to try and stop things like the above.... Evil or Very Mad

Cycloptichorn

Pay some people enough money and they will say anything you want.

From the link you posted:
Quote:
They kept Iraqi brains in the fridge for trophies
by Pen
Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:40:10 AM PST
...
Let America know what fu[c]cked up, unthinkable things are being done in our names. As Mr. Soros said, "Let the De-Nazification begin".


One more time:
Quote:
... Mr. [size=25]Soros said,[/size] "Let the De-Nazification begin".
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/1/132416/1227

Quote:
I remember doing a nightsweep ... it's difficult when you see things like that.


Everything isn't sunny in Iraq; I don't want the war to end to gain motherf*cking political power or other such idiotic and insulting f*cking reasons, but to try and stop things like the above.... Evil or Very Mad

Cycloptichorn

Pay soe people enough money and they will say anything you want.

From the link you posted:
Quote:
They kept Iraqi brains in the fridge for trophies
by Pen
Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 10:40:10 AM PST
...
Let America know what fu[c]cked up, unthinkable things are being done in our names. As Mr. Soros said, "Let the De-Nazification begin".


One more time:
Quote:
... Mr. [size=25]Soros said,[/size] "Let the De-Nazification begin".
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:26 pm
So you are alledging that the soldier in question is saying that he saw things he didn't see, for money? I just want to be clear.

As for Soros' comment; he said that nearly a week ago. I can't believe you haven't read it before now; it seems like something that's right up your alley.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 07:18 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So you are alledging that the soldier in question is saying that he saw things he didn't see, for money? I just want to be clear.

The soldier in question is alleged in the article to have said he saw those things." Was he bribed to say those things, or was the writer of the article bribed to falsely report what the soldier said, or was there in fact no such soldier?

As for Soros' comment; he said that nearly a week ago. I can't believe you haven't read it before now; it seems like something that's right up your alley.

The point is a Sorosism was quoted in the same article that alleged what the soldier said. For that reason I suspect the article is Soros funded and unreliable.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 08:53 pm
the january issue of 'vanity fair' has an article by david rose under the heading of 'neo culpa' . he interviewed several (former ?) neo-conservatives and it's rather surprising how their view on the war in iraq has changed .
the link is to the pre-release of the article - the full article in VF is a pleasure(?) to read - quite revealing .
hbg

Quote:
Vanity Fair Exclusive: Now They Tell Us
Neo Culpa
As Iraq slips further into chaos, the war's neoconservative boosters have turned sharply on the Bush administration, charging that their grand designs have been undermined by White House incompetence. In a series of exclusive interviews, Richard Perle, Kenneth Adelman, David Frum, and others play the blame game with shocking frankness. Target No. 1: the president himself.



full article :
...VANITY FAIR...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 09:22 pm
Looks like those advisors are abandoning the ship now that they see it sinking without any hope of plugging the holes. LOL
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 11:34 pm
Dozens killed as Baghdad crackdown nears
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 07:58 am
Officials: Iranian envoy seized in Iraq

Quote:


Right; what motive would Iraqis have to detain an Iranian envoy? Rolling Eyes We are violating international law.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 11:47 am
Army made video warning about dangers of depleted uranium but never showed it to troops http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/CNN_Agent_Orange_tame_compared_to_0206.html
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 01:01 pm
revel wrote:

...
Right; what motive would Iraqis have to detain an Iranian envoy? Rolling Eyes We are violating international law.

We Question I see you wrote [emphasis added]: "what motive would Iraqis have to detain an Iranian envoy?" Their motive is obvious. The Iraqis suspect the Iranian envoy of aiding and abetting their enemy. There is no international law that prohibts a government from protecting its people against their enemies.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 01:16 pm
Quote:
The Iraqis suspect the Iranian envoy of aiding and abetting their enemy.


No, they don't. The Iraqi gov't knows who Iran is aiding and abetting, and it sure as hell isn't the Sunni insurgency.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 02:14 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The Iraqis suspect the Iranian envoy of aiding and abetting their enemy.


No, they don't. The Iraqi gov't knows who Iran is aiding and abetting, and it sure as hell isn't the Sunni insurgency.

Cycloptichorn

Laughing What Question So let me try and get this straight.

The Iraqi government arrested the Iranian envoy because the Iranian envoy was not aiding the Shia insurgency against the Sunni insurgency Question Laughing

OR

The Iraqi government arrested the Iranian envoy because the Iranian envoy was aiding the al-Qaeda terrorists against the Sunni and Shia people:?: Laughing

OR

The Iraqi government arrested the Iranian envoy because the Iranian envoy was aiding Israel against the Sunni and Shia people:?: Laughing

OR

Shocked Confused
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 02:52 pm
Or, 'the Iraqi government didn't arrest anyone, and armed gunmen instead kidnapped the envoy.'

The Iranians are aiding and abetting the Iraqi gov't.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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