THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

hamburger wrote:

ican wrote :

Quote:
If we maintain an effective surge long enough, the Iraqis themselves will come to develop the capability to defend themselves. That will of course be a win-win situation--Iraqi and Ameican win situation.

you would have to believe that the shias and sunnis would be able to become allies .
...
hbg

I don't have to believe that the shias and sunnis would have to become allies in order to believe the Iraqis can develop the capability to defend themselves. I only have to believe that the shias and sunnis will have to oppose killing each other in order to believe the Iraqis can develop the capability to defend themselves. I believe that will eventually--in one or two generations--be generally recognized by both to be in their own mutual self-interest.

0 Replies

In the mean while, we get our soldiers killed and maimed, and spend some two billion every week in Iraq. Two-three generations, heh? What progress!

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

In the mean while, we get our soldiers killed and maimed, and spend some two billion every week in Iraq. Two-three generations, heh? What progress!

No! I wrote: one or two generations.

Obviously you do not like my alternative and its consequences.

What is your alternative and what do you think are its consequences?

After you state your alternative and what you think are its consequences, then I'll be able to rationally compare my alternative with your alternative.

0 Replies

I'm with the majority of the American People that wants our troops home.
You do remember who the American People are, don't you? Seems Bush, the generals, and people like you have forgotten we once had a democracy where the People counted.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm with the majority of the American People that wants our troops home.
You do remember who the American People are, don't you? Seems Bush, the generals, and people like you have forgotten we once had a democracy where the People counted.

More than 60% of the American people do not want us to fail in Iraq. We cannot succeed in Iraq by having the troops come home before we succeed in Iraq.

What do you think are the consequences of having the troops come home before we succeed in Iraq?

0 Replies

Iraq reopens borders

Quote:

Authorities say Iraq has begun reopening its borders with Iran and Syria after a security crackdown.

The borders were fully closed for three days as part of an operation to crack down on sectarian and insurgent violence.

The Shalamchen border crossing to Iran, near the southern Iraqi city of Basra, has been cleared.

The US accuses Iran and Syria of allowing militants and weapons to be smuggled into Iraq but both countries deny the claims.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki ordered the borders be temporarily closed last week to allow officials to upgrade security equipment and procedures.

The closure was part of a broader security operation in which thousands of extra US and Iraqi troops have been sent into Baghdad, the epicentre of a vicious civil war between rival Sunni and Shiite factions.

Iran, Syria strengthen ties

Meanwhile, the presidents of Iran and Syria are urging the region's Muslims to stay united in the face of US attempts to divide them.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is winding up a two-day trip to Iran.

Mr Assad and his Iranian counterpart, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have pledged to work even more closely.

"With the current situation in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Palestine, there is even more need for us to consult and coordinate to face the plans of our enemies," Mr Ahmadinejad said.

The Syrian President says the US is trying to sow division amongst the region's different ethnic and religious groups.

"They want to push the peoples and the governments to make use of ethnicities and create divisions in the Islamic world," Mr Assad said.

"It is this final card that they are trying to play. If they succeed in this, they will succeed in all their plans."

The US has accused Syria of of fomenting the violence that has dogged Lebanon since the assassination of former prime minister Rafiq Hariri in 2005, while Iran is accused of arming the militant Shiite group, Hezbollah.

Both countries vehemently deny the charges.

I think we should get out Iraq not only because of all the deaths of our military men and women, but because the cause is not worth the sacrifice. We need to butt out of Iraqs business even if that means more death and more civil war, at least it will be their country instead of a set up country by the bush adminstration.

0 Replies

ican, The Iraqis have had internal warfare for some 1,500 years before we arrived in their country. Our leaving will bring them back to where they were before Saddam's time.

It's for them to settle their civil war, insurgency, and insecurity.

All we accomplish by staying is to anger more Arab countries as occupiers, and Iraqis as the terrorists.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

ican, The Iraqis have had internal warfare for some 1,500 years before we arrived in their country. Our leaving will bring them back to where they were before Saddam's time.

It's for them to settle their civil war, insurgency, and insecurity.

All we accomplish by staying is to anger more Arab countries as occupiers, and Iraqis as the terrorists.

What do you think are the consequences for the American people if we do not succeed in Iraq?

0 Replies

ican asked :

Quote:

What do you think are the consequences for the American people if we do not succeed in Iraq?

i imagine that the first consequence will be that american soldiers will no longer be killed in iraq .

remember that the united states eventually had to withdraw from vietnam , yet today seems to enjoy good diplomatic relations with the vietnamese government (i'm sure you are very well aware of that . a thought just struck me : perhaps you do not believe that the united states should have diplomatic relations with vietnam ? in that case i could understand your misgivings about iraq.)
do you believe that it would be impossible to re-establish diplomatic relations with an iraqi government even if the u.s. troops were withdrawn from iraq soon ?

i find it interesting that the u.s. government is continuing to try and find a non-aggressive (perhaps a diplomatic) solution to the north-korean problem , which - by the way - has been going on for a long time .
there has been no talk of "all options are on the table" , i believe .

i just have difficulty understanding why you seem think that the presence of u.s. troops in iraq is of such high priority .
i could see u.s. troops staying in iraq for a while if they were in fact able to protect th iraqi population from killers of all sorts - but every day there are more civilians being killed . i have to conclude that the u.s. troops simply do not have the power to bring peace to the people .

there seems to be little action on the diplomatic front to bring the nations of the middle-east (including iran and syria) - or at least some of them - to the table to work on other (diplomatic , aid to civilians ...) solutions , to at least try to stabilize iraq .

i also notice that the major nations of asia (india , pakistan , japan to name just a few , but the list could be expanded) who might have a better understanding of eastern mentalities have little appetitite to become involved .

might the governments of those countries be willing to contribute to finding a "non-military" solution to the sectarian/civil war in iraq ?

to make my point as simple as posible : the military approach to bring peace to iraq has not been successful for about for about four years now .
i find it difficult to believe that "more of the same" will bring success .

my comments are probably not even worth 2 cents , but here they are .
hbg.

0 Replies

?'Security forces' rob Baghdad academicsHala Jaber and Ali Rifaat
WHEN Iraqi soldiers and police smashed their way into Mohammed al-Jabouri's home on the first day of Baghdad's latest security crackdown last week, he did not imagine they would steal the family's life savings.

The security forces separated the men from the women and then ordered Jabouri's wife to give them a suitcase filled with jewellery and £20,000 in cash. When she argued they threatened to shoot her. Then they destroyed the furniture and broke the windows of the cars in the garage.

"The same militiamen who used to raid our areas in the past are now conducting the security crackdown, using this as a chance to attack us further," Jabouri said.

Later the same night, security forces raided a compound containing the homes of 110 university professors and their families. Professor Hameed al-Aathami described what happened: "They dragged us out of our beds as we slept with our wives and children, took us outside, bound our hands and blindfolded us. They beat, cursed and insulted us."

Dr Salah Bidayat, the dean of the school of law, fired two shots from his licensed gun in the air to get the soldiers' attention. "They caught him, lay him on the ground and proceeded to beat, kick and curse him in the most aggressive manner and when he explained we were teachers and professors they told him you are all a bunch of asses and terrorists," Aathami said.

"They gathered all the men in the centre of the compound and proceeded to their homes, where they broke furniture, stole money, mobile telephones and jewellery as we sat outside listening to our women and children scream and cry," he said.

"It was very hard for us to go through this. This is the security crackdown they have been bragging about. There is no such thing as a security plan; it is all an attempt to rid the country of the few remaining educated and decent people," said Aathami, who is planning to leave Iraq as soon as he can.

Baghdad's latest security offensive was intended to regain neighbourhoods from Shi'ite militiamen and Sunni insurgents. Many believe the advance publicity surrounding the crackdown allowed many militiamen to escape.

American and Iraqi military yesterday reported a drop in violence in Baghdad since the start of the security offensive. They attributed the success to increased troop presence but also to a decision by Sunni and Shi'ite militants to lie low. Sources close to Moqtada al-Sadr, the leader of the Iranian-backed Mahdi Army, confirmed that he had fled Iraq for Iran at dawn on February 8 with 27 senior aides.

0 Replies

hamburger wrote:

ican asked :

Quote:
What do you think are the consequences for the American people if we do not succeed in Iraq?

i imagine that the first consequence will be that american soldiers will no longer be killed in iraq .

Will American soldiers after they leave Iraq have to be killed somewhere else?

remember that the united states eventually had to withdraw from vietnam , yet today seems to enjoy good diplomatic relations with the vietnamese government (i'm sure you are very well aware of that . a thought just struck me : perhaps you do not believe that the united states should have diplomatic relations with vietnam ? in that case i could understand your misgivings about iraq.)
do you believe that it would be impossible to re-establish diplomatic relations with an iraqi government even if the u.s. troops were withdrawn from iraq soon ?
3 million non-killer southeastern asians were mass murdered after the US pulled out of South Vietnam.

Yes, we have diplomatic relations with Vietnam. And yes, the US had diplomatic relations with Iraq while Saddam's regime mass murdered over a million Iraqi non-murderers. And Yes, we had diplomatic relations with Saddam's regime while al-Qaeda fled from Afghanistan to Iraq and was growing rapidly in Iraq.

So much for diplomatic relations.

i find it interesting that the u.s. government is continuing to try and find a non-aggressive (perhaps a diplomatic) solution to the north-korean problem , which - by the way - has been going on for a long time .
there has been no talk of "all options are on the table" , i believe .

i just have difficulty understanding why you seem think that the presence of u.s. troops in iraq is of such high priority .
i could see u.s. troops staying in iraq for a while if they were in fact able to protect th iraqi population from killers of all sorts - but every day there are more civilians being killed . i have to conclude that the u.s. troops simply do not have the power to bring peace to the people .

If we leave before the Iraqis can adequately defend themselves, far greater numbers of Iraqi non-murderers will be massed murdered daily than are mass murdered now.

there seems to be little action on the diplomatic front to bring the nations of the middle-east (including iran and syria) - or at least some of them - to the table to work on other (diplomatic , aid to civilians ...) solutions , to at least try to stabilize iraq .

i also notice that the major nations of asia (india , pakistan , japan to name just a few , but the list could be expanded) who might have a better understanding of eastern mentalities have little appetitite to become involved .

might the governments of those countries be willing to contribute to finding a "non-military" solution to the sectarian/civil war in iraq ?

to make my point as simple as posible : the military approach to bring peace to iraq has not been successful for about for about four years now .
i find it difficult to believe that "more of the same" will bring success .

]The US has now adopted a different strategy than the one we have been employing for the last four years. Instead of the defensive approach of protecting and training others to protect the Iraqi people from their killers, we are attacking the killers of the Iraqi people.

my comments are probably not even worth 2 cents , but here they are .
hbg.

I bid one dollar! :wink:

0 Replies

Quote:

2/18/2007 Status of War on Terror
NEWS UPDATES
Baghdad Security Plan Can Work
WASHINGTON, Feb. 16, 2007 — The new security plan being implemented in Baghdad will be successful if the United States remains dedicated to the mission and Iraqis commit to resolving their differences, the U.S. commander in charge of forces in the city said today. Story

Stability & Security in Iraq Report (pdf)
For Top News Visit DefenseLink

BACKGROUND

IRAQ

Renewal In Iraq
Iraq: Security, Stability
Fact Sheet: Progress and Work Ahead
Report: Strategy for Victory in Iraq
Iraq Daily Update
This Week in Iraq
Multinational Force Iraq
State Dept. Weekly Iraq Report
'Boots on the Ground' Audio Archive
Weekly Reconstruction Report (PDF)
Iraq Reconstruction • Maps

AFGHANISTAN
Afghanistan Update Maps

WAR ON TERRORISM

Fact Sheet: Budget Request
Fact Sheet: Terror Plots Disrupted
Waging and Winning the War on Terror
Terrorism Timeline
Terrorism Knowledge Base

COALITION FORCES FIND EXPLOSIVES — Coalition Forces talk with local residents in Salman Pak about a large explosives cache in a nearby building, Feb. 15, 2007. The area was cordoned off and local citizens were moved to a safe distance while the building and IED materials were destroyed by a controlled detonation.

Quote:

National Strategy for Victory in Iraq

The following document articulates the broad strategy the President set forth in 2003 and provides an update on our progress as well as the challenges remaining.

"The United States has no intention of determining the precise form of Iraq's new government. That choice belongs to the Iraqi people. Yet, we will ensure that one brutal dictator is not replaced by another. All Iraqis must have a voice in the new government, and all citizens must have their rights protected.

Rebuilding Iraq will require a sustained commitment from many nations, including our own: we will remain in Iraq as long as necessary, and not a day more."

-- President George W. Bush
February 26, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Table of Contents

November 30, 2005
National Strategy for Victory in Iraq
Full PDF Document (386KB)
Executive Summary

PART I
Strategic Overview

Victory in Iraq Defined
Victory in Iraq is a Vital U.S. Interest
The Benefits of Victory in Iraq
The Consequences of Failure
Our Enemies and Their Goals
The Strategy of Our Enemies
Our Strategy for Victory is Clear
A. The Political Track (Isolate, Engage, Build)
B. The Security Track (Clear, Hold, Build)
C. The Economic Track (Restore, Reform, Build)
This Strategy is Integrated, and its Elements are Mutually Reinforcing
Victory Will Take Time
Why Our Strategy Is (and Must Be) Conditions-Based
Our Strategy Tracks and Measures Progress

0 Replies

By BRIAN MURPHY, Associated Press Writer
45 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Militants struck back Sunday in their first major blow against a U.S.-led security clampdown in Baghdad with car bombings that killed at least 63 people, left scores injured and sent a grim message to officials boasting that extremist factions were on the run.

The attacks in mostly Shiite areas ?- twin explosions in an open-air market that claimed 62 lives and a third blast that killed one ?- were a sobering reminder of the challenges confronting any effort to rattle the well-armed and well-hidden insurgents.

Instead, it was the Iraqi commanders of the security sweep feeling the sting.

Just a few hours before the blasts, Lt. Gen. Abboud Qanbar led reporters on a tour of the neighborhood near the marketplace that was attacked and promised to "chase the terrorists out of Baghdad." On Saturday, the Iraqi spokesman for the plan, Brig. Gen. Qassim Moussawi, said violence had plummeted by 80 percent in the capital.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki condemned the bombings as a desperate act by "terrorists" and "criminals" who sense they are being squeezed.

"These crimes confirm the defeat of these perpetrators and their failure in confronting our armed forces, which are determined to cleanse the dens of terrorism," al-Maliki said in a statement.

U.S. military chiefs have been much more cautious. They have insisted the security drive, begun last week, may take months to make clear gains and that counter-punches from militants were likely every step of the way.

The ones dealt Sunday came from the militants' favored weapon of the moment: parked cars rigged with explosives.

The first blast tore through a produce market in the mostly Shiite area of New Baghdad, toppling the wooden stalls and leaving pools of blood and vegetables trampled in the chaos. Minutes later, another car bomb exploded near a row of stores.

More than 129 people were injured, including many women who were shopping, said police and rescue officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to speak to the media.

Victims were carried to hospitals on makeshift stretchers or in the arms of rescuers.

Another car bomb in the Shiite enclave of Sadr City left at least one dead and 10 wounded, police said.

0 Replies

It's not all that bad in Iraq:

Quote:

The Americans sent to rebuild Baghdad led a cocooned existence - complete with booze, hot dogs and luxury villas.

Online report

0 Replies

walter quoted :

Quote:

The Americans sent to rebuild Baghdad led a cocooned existence - complete with booze, hot dogs and luxury villas.

we have been told that hotdogs are not good for us - and they are being fed to those poor guys in iraq !
what's going on ? are the americans trying to kill their own people ?
why doesn't president bush make sure these people are fed a healthy diet ?
(so what if they live in luxary villas and drink booze - that's no compensation for having to eat hotdogs ! before we know it , they'll be forced to eat BIG MACS - that'll kill them for sure !)

sorry , just couldn't help myself - i had some cough-syrup this morning - must be making me giddy :wink: .
hbg

0 Replies

hamburger wrote:

walter quoted :

Quote:

The Americans sent to rebuild Baghdad led a cocooned existence - complete with booze, hot dogs and luxury villas.

we have been told that hotdogs are not good for us - and they are being fed to those poor guys in iraq !
what's going on ? are the americans trying to kill their own people ?
why doesn't president bush make sure these people are fed a healthy diet ?
(so what if they live in luxary villas and drink booze - that's no compensation for having to eat hotdogs ! before we know it , they'll be forced to eat BIG MACS - that'll kill them for sure !)

sorry , just couldn't help myself - i had some cough-syrup this morning - must be making me giddy :wink: .
hbg

Hey, hbg, hot dogs is american as apple pie, you know, "baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and chevrolet."

0 Replies

I was going to add another twist to hbg's post. Heck, I eat hotdogs "regularly" at home, and it's one of the most famous food at ball games in the US.

0 Replies

Operation dampens hope of return of security
By Awad Nasser

Azzaman, February 19, 2007

Iraqis had high hopes that the joint Iraqi and U.S. security operation will bring some semblance of normalcy to the violent streets of Baghdad.

But the results of the past few days have been very disappointing.

The achievements in terms of returns in the light of the joint reports we have seen are less significant than during the normal days when not so many troops were seen on the streets of Baghdad.

Iraqis hoped that the cells of terror and violence will be dealt a heavy blow in the early days of the operation, but the course of events shows that most probably the opposite is happening.
http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?fname=news\2007-02-19\kurd1.htm

0 Replies

http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?code=ennewsen

0 Replies

February 19, 2007
Militants Attack U.S. Base in Iraq
By MARC SANTORA
BAGHDAD, Feb. 19 ?- In a coordinated assault on an American combat outpost north of Baghdad, suicide bombers drove three cars filled with explosives into the base today, killing two American soldiers and wounding at least 17 more, witnesses and the American military said.

The brazen and highly unusual attack, which was followed by fierce gun battles and a daring evacuation of the wounded Americans by helicopters, came on a day of violence across the country that left more than 40 people dead in shootings, suicide bombings, mortar attacks and roadside explosions.

The violence was directed at civilians, Americans and the Iraqi security forces.

As American and Iraqi troops flood the streets of Baghdad in an attempt to stem the bloodshed, and thousands more Marines head out to the Sunni Arab heartland west of the city in Anbar Province, American and Iraqi military officials are concerned that militants will simply try to move to areas where the troop presence remains thin.

Gee, they just learned about this? I wonder why 21,500 more troops will fail?

0 Replies

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know