THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

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The PR problem was that people found out about the perfidy that our 'bad apples' were accomplishing all by their lonesomes. You see, noone other than yourself and maybe a few other Republicans actually believe that the US gov't didn't order and know exactly what was going on there. Huge PR disaster, not predicated by the 'liberal media' at all.

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MALARKY! This malarkey pumped up and spread far and wide is what actually led to OUR PR disaster.

I think it's appropriate to say that the underlying actions lead to the PR disaster, not the fact that they were reported on. Reporting on something does not create a disaster. You have a fundamental problem with your worldview if you think that informing people that torture, rape, and murder are occurring is the actual problem, not the fact that they were taking place.

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The US gov't did not order and did not know exactly what was going on there.

This is 100%, corn-fed bull sh*t. You have absolutely no knowledge that this is true. Those who were told to investigate AG - internally within the military - were not allowed to look at the higher ranks to see who knew what. So there's no way you can say this at all.

We CAN say - now, this we have proof for - that those in the higher levels of government wrote and approved of documents supporting the use of torture. Re-defining torture, twisting words. Rumsfeld in particular has quite a bit of evidence laid against him in this respect.

The abuses in AG didn't show up until the 'Tiger Team' of interrogators was shipped over from Guantanamo and told to get information immediately. You're telling me that these interrogators didn't know what was going on? That they didn't order it? You're willfully deluding yourself.

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But the US gov't did know what horrorible crimes the terrorists were perpetrating on the Iraqi people.

You are conflating two completely different issues - those held and abused at AG were by and far completely innocent. The vast majority of them were not terrorists.

Those who were rounded up into AG, held there for no reason, released after weeks or months - those who were beaten or tortured - you think they needed to have the media get the word out about the place, in order to be a PR disaster for the US? You don't think that the very Iraqis we were trying to convince to join our side, kept hearing horror stories about the way we treated prisoners?

AG was a PR disaster long before Sy Hersh exposed it. You should realize that if someone hadn't linked, you probably would never have known about the torture and beatings, and it probably wouldn't have stopped. I'm sure you have no problem with this at all.

Cycloptichorn

Ican, I'm just going to point out a single point from your post which highlights why your position is completely built on lies you have convinced yourself of:

Quote:

The PR problem was that people found out about the perfidy that our 'bad apples' were accomplishing all by their lonesomes. You see, noone other than yourself and maybe a few other Republicans actually believe that the US gov't didn't order and know exactly what was going on there. Huge PR disaster, not predicated by the 'liberal media' at all.

Quote:

MALARKY! This malarkey pumped up, spread far and wide, and repeated endlessly, is what actually led to OUR PR disaster.

I think it's appropriate to say that the underlying actions lead to the PR disaster, not the fact that they were reported on. Reporting on something does not create a disaster. You have a fundamental problem with your worldview if you think that informing people that torture, rape, and murder are occurring is the actual problem, not the fact that they were taking place.

I did not claim that accurate reporting on "bad apple" actions caused our PR problem. I claimed that the allegation that the US gov't ordered and knew exactly what was going on there, is malarkey. It is this malarkey, pumped up, spread far and wide, and repeated endlessly, is what actually led to OUR PR disaster.

That malarkey by the Liberal Media caused our PR problem. Furthermore, a continuing plethora of the same kind of malarkey by the Liberal Media is causing a continuing worsening of our PR problem.

Quote:

The US gov't did not order and did not know exactly what was going on there.

This is 100%, corn-fed bull sh*t. You have absolutely no knowledge that this is true. Those who were told to investigate AG - internally within the military - were not allowed to look at the higher ranks to see who knew what. So there's no way you can say this at all.

Malarkey! These investigators were allowed to look and investigate where they thought they should, including interrogating higher ups.

We CAN say - now, this we have proof for - that those in the higher levels of government wrote and approved of documents supporting the use of torture. Re-defining torture, twisting words. Rumsfeld in particular has quite a bit of evidence laid against him in this respect.

You have no such proof. All you have is a plethora of articles written by Liberal News Media propagandists.

The abuses in AG didn't show up until the 'Tiger Team' of interrogators was shipped over from Guantanamo and told to get information immediately. You're telling me that these interrogators didn't know what was going on? That they didn't order it? You're willfully deluding yourself.

The report of the "bad apple" behavior was made by some of our military to the rest of our military. That is what caused our military to investigate and subsequently report the "bad apple" abuse to the media. The Liberal Media then distorted what these investigators voluntarily reported to the public.

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But the US gov't did know what horrorible crimes the terrorists were perpetrating on the Iraqi people.

You are conflating two completely different issues - those held and abused at AG were by and far completely innocent. The vast majority of them were not terrorists.

Different issues? Yes! Comparable issues? Yes! Analogous issues? Yes!

Unsupported claims by people captured in war that they were innocent and/or abused are not credible to me.

Those who were rounded up into AG, held there for no reason, released after weeks or months - those who were beaten or tortured - you think they needed to have the media get the word out about the place, in order to be a PR disaster for the US? You don't think that the very Iraqis we were trying to convince to join our side, kept hearing horror stories about the way we treated prisoners?

Unsupported claims by people captured in war that they were innocent and/or abused are not credible to me.

AG was a PR disaster long before Sy Hersh exposed it. You should realize that if someone hadn't linked, you probably would never have known about the torture and beatings, and it probably wouldn't have stopped.

Tortured and beaten They were terribly humiliated and caged. They were not tortured and beaten. Unsupported claims by people captured in war that they were innocent and/or abused are not credible to me.

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It was first exposed by our own military investigating our own military. Hersh reported what the prisoners claimed not what he himself investigated and verified.

Cycloptichorn

Malarkey! These investigators were allowed to look and investigate where they thought they should, including interrogating higher ups.

Unsupported claims by people captured in war that they were innocent and/or abused are not credible to me.

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What we're talking about, on the other hand, is whether or not the Iraqi citizens - the true target of the PR war - found claims that torture and abuse were going on in credible or not. And I would unhesitatingly say that they did, as there is every evidence that those who came back from the prison were in fact found credible by their countrymen.

Cycloptichorn

ican711nm wrote:

Malarkey! These investigators were allowed to look and investigate where they thought they should, including interrogating higher ups.

Post me a link showing that this is true - that all levels of command where investigated
...
Cycloptichorn

Bush and the generals just don't get it! As soon as the surge is finished, and those 21,500 troops return home, the violence will continue to escalate. They've tried "surges" before, and failed. We need 200,000 more troops to remain indefinitely to quell the violence. That would only be seen as an occupation that will only exacerbate the problems.

It's a no-win situation for the long term.

If we maintain an effective surge long enough, the Iraqis themselves will come to develop the capability to defend themselves. That will of course be a win-win situation--Iraqi and Ameican win situation.

cicerone imposter wrote:

Bush and the generals just don't get it! As soon as the surge is finished, and those 21,500 troops return home, the violence will continue to escalate. They've tried "surges" before, and failed. We need 200,000 more troops to remain indefinitely to quell the violence. That would only be seen as an occupation that will only exacerbate the problems.

It's a no-win situation for the long term.

cicerone imposter just doesn't get it. The surge previously forecast by cice to fail to reduce terrorist mass murders of Iraqi non-murderers, now that it looks like it has a real chance of succeeding, is now forecast by cice to fail to be sustained after the surge is ended.

Cice doesn't grasp the obvious. If we maintain an effective surge long enough, the Iraqis themselves will come to develop the capability to defend themselves. That will of course be a win-win situation--Iraqi and Ameican win situation.

BAGHDAD, Feb 18 (Reuters) - Two car bombs tore through a busy shopping area of a mainly Shi'ite district of Baghdad on Sunday, killing 55 people and wounding scores as militants defied a military offensive by U.S. and Iraqi troops.

The blasts came just two days after Prime Minister Nuri al- Maliki trumpeted what he called the "brilliant success" of Operation Imposing Law in quelling sectarian violence that has turned the capital's streets into killing fields.

But U.S. generals, mindful of a similar crackdown last summer that failed, have been more cautious and warned any downturn in violence might be temporary as militants adapt their tactics to meet the new strategy.

In the worst attack on Sunday, a twin car bombing in a packed market area of New Baghdad, a mainly Shi'ite district in the eastern part of the capital, killed at least 55 people and wounded 128, police said.

A Reuters photographer, Carlos Barria, who is embedded with a U.S. military unit that was in the area, reported seeing seven or eight bodies lying in the street after the two blasts, which he said were about 10 seconds and 100 metres (328 feet) apart.

"I saw a man about 50 years old. He was carrying a dead boy who looked about 10. He was holding him by one arm and one leg and screaming," he said.

A man wearing a business suit lay dead next to a black Mercedes, a piece of shrapnel sticking out of his head. One of the explosions partially collapsed a two-storey building.

Fifteen minutes earlier, a joint patrol of U.S. and Iraqi police had stopped to pose for pictures with each other on the street corner where the first bomb exploded.

One policeman was killed when a car bomb exploded near a police checkpoint in Sadr City, a stronghold of anti-American cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi Army militia blamed by Sunni Arabi leaders for many hit squad killings.

There had been a relative lull in sectarian attacks since Operation Imposing Law, seen as a last-ditch attempt to avert all-out civil war between majority Shi'ites and minority Sunnis, was formally launched on Wednesday.

Earlier on Sunday, police had reported finding just five bodies shot, tortured and dumped in Baghdad on Saturday, a dramatic drop from the 40-50 they typically report each day.

It was one of the lowest tolls since the bombing of a Shi'ite shrine in Samarra a year ago unleashed a wave of sectarian violence that has caused tens of thousands of deaths.

The United States has repeatedly said there is no military solution to Iraq's violence and that any let-up in the bloodletting must be accompanied by political progress to reconcile Iraq's warring communities. President George W. Bush has said he is holding the government to certain benchmarks.

On Saturday, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told Iraq's leaders to use the lull in violence to push ahead with national reconciliation.

"They are off to a good start," said Rice, referring to Operation Imposing Law. "How the Iraqis use the breathing space that might provide is what is really important."

Establishing a law that equitably distributes revenues from Iraq's vast oil wealth is seen as a key step in achieving reconciliation between factions. (Additional reporting by Susan Cornwell and Donna Smith in Washington, Aref Mohammed in Basra, and Edmund Blair in Tehran)