Well I'm pleased my post a page or so back has produced a little flurry of activity.
But no one has answered my question. Love him or hate him, the President of the United States does not take the country to war on a whim. Say anything you want about Blair, but being dumb is not one. So what were the real reasons for this (mis)adventure?
(IMO it was always a gamble...had it paid off Bush and Blair would be heros, and the dubious reasons for going to war in the first place forgotten.)
Steve 41oo wrote:Well I'm pleased my post a page or so back has produced a little flurry of activity.
But no one has answered my question. Love him or hate him, the President of the United States does not take the country to war on a whim. Say anything you want about Blair, but being dumb is not one. So what were the real reasons for this (mis)adventure?
(IMO it was always a gamble...had it paid off Bush and Blair would be heros, and the dubious reasons for going to war in the first place forgotten.)
A combination of Oil and a misplaced sense of destiny.
You've read that Iraq was only to be a stepping stone to the whole ME? Until they screwed it up, that is...
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:A combination of Oil and a misplaced sense of destiny....Cycloptichorn
Thanks. I cant think of anything better.
McGentrix wrote:I'm sorry, but I have stopped reading cycloptichorn's rantings because I find them pedantic and tiresome.
Upon reviewing his post I find my choice to be wise.
It's easy to look at the results of the war and see where mistakes have been made and where intelligence turned out to be incorrect. Much like a scientific experiment where the results prove or disprove the working hypothesis.
Results do not make the hypothesis a lie though and that seems to be what so many anti-Bushites want to do . Prove that he lied because the war showed them to be wrong... doesn't make any sense.
I think you have stopped reading, period. Its the only explanation I can think of if after all this time here in A2k with posts with links which prove there was plenty of reason to slow down the rush to war. Much of the evidence they trotted out they knew was in doubt at the time they were trotting it out. (Which again has already been put out here in a2k land.) So its not a case of just having the wrong intelligence. Its a case of cherry picking the wrong intelligence to fit around an agenda.
Cyclop is also right that we ain't bringing any freedom to Iraqis. We have only brought death and misery. I imagine Iraqis wish we would take our ever loving freedom and stick it.
Robin Cook, the British Foreign Secretary who resigned over this issue, said Iraq was not invaded because it was a threat, because it was strong. It was invaded because it was weak.
Mr Blair visited Iraq yesterday.
hbg wrote on another thread:
hamburger wrote:mcg wrote :
Quote:... where intelligence turned out to be incorrect....
from wiki :
Quote:Intelligence is a property of mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn
apparently there was NO "intelligence" in the "intelligence" .
hbg
Iraq makes plans for quick U.S. pullout
From Juan Cole
Quote:Al-Qaeda as an Anti-Muslim Movement
Al-Qaeda might well have faded away after Tora Bora. It did not, despite having its command and control deeply disrupted and the capture of many top commanders and hundreds of operatives.
Why?
The US occupation of Iraq is one big reason (see below). It has galvanized Gulf millionaires to begin giving money to al-Qaeda again, and Iraq generates both trained operatives and small amounts of cash for the central al-Qaeda organization, which operates in the badlands on the Pakistan-Afghanistan frontier.
Another thing that kept al-Qaeda alive was the internet. Wonderful as the latter is, it is just a communications medium and can be used for good or evil. Jihadi radicals have used it for recruitment and for spreading around knowledge of how to make explosives, etc.
Another important impetus to al-Qaeda's survival is that it has taken the place of the Communist Party as radical response to the status quo. Al-Qaeda's top leadership is rich, not poor, and it is a movement of the Right, not the Left. But it is a radical, populist Right that can attract the dispossessed.
Although al-Qaeda has struck with brutal inventiveness at Western countries, currently its biggest target is other Muslims, whom its leaders consider to be "collaborators" with the United States and Western Europe, or other status quo powers.
Given the millions of dollars in oil and antiquities smuggling sloshing around Iraq, not to mention the kidnapping and ransom money, it doesn't sound to me like the al-Qaeda fund transfers are more than peanuts. More worrisome is that some jihadis who have gained experience fighting the US military in Iraq have fled to Pakistan and gotten in touch with Taliban remnants, passing over to them key operational knowledge. Miller says that the CIA put an extra 50 operatives into the field in Pakistan to attempt to track down Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri, but without success.
One of the major reasons for the US to get out of Iraq is that its attempt to occupy a major Arab Muslim country is generating terrorism and support for terrorism at a pace much faster than US security agencies can fight it.
The longer we stay in Iraq, the more likely it is that it will produce another attack on the US mainland. Since important elements of the US political, military and corporate elite are apparently not actually much interested in democracy, another such attack might provide the heavies with a pretext to do away with it in practice (the Putin model), whatever trimmings they retain. Former CENTCOM commander Tommy Franks once suggested as much.
So getting out of Iraq might be the only way to save the Republic.
Again we see how Bush has helped Al Qaeda and helped spread terrorism throughout the world by his invasion of Iraq. This is what happens when you have a leader so consumed by ideology he is blind to the real world.
Veterans' Suicides: War Casualties You Aren't Hearing About
Veterans' Suicides: The War Casualties You Aren't Hearing About
by Paul Rieckhoff
05.21.2007
Like countless others, each of these young men served honorably in Iraq, but came home unable to cope with their memories of combat. Each one sought help from the military or from the Department of Veterans Affairs. But in each case, the hospital was overbooked, the counselors didn't listen, or the bureaucracy moved too slowly.
Only months after their return from war, each of these young heroes committed suicide.
How did this happen? Simply because the veterans' support system is overwhelmed. Over 50,000 Iraq veterans have already been diagnosed with PTSD. Tens of thousands are waiting for VA appointments. One-third of Vet Centers (walk-in counseling clinics for combat veterans and their families) lack adequate counseling staff. Even a VA official has admitted that waiting lists render mental health and substance abuse care "virtually inaccessible."
I'd like to share the story of a friend of mine that experienced the failings of the current system first-hand. Drew Brown served as a Sergeant First Class training Iraq's soldiers in Fallujah, Taji, Baghdad and Baquba. Like Joshua Omvig, Jeffrey Lucy, and Jonathan Schulze, Drew struggled to readjust when he came home and he sought help.
Now, Drew has bravely offered to share his story in the hopes of helping other Iraq veterans hold on long enough to get the care they need -- and of spurring action in Washington to make sure no more Iraq veterans fall through the cracks:
"One night, while my wife slept only feet from me, I came to the conclusion that she would not be able to stop me if I chose to end my life. With the speed and accuracy of my years handling weapons, I could easily load a magazine, chamber a round, remove the safety and squeeze the trigger before she even got out of bed. I could taste the Hoppe's #9, feel the front sight post as it pressed against the roof of my mouth.
For months I tried to schedule an appointment with the VA. I was told I would need to schedule an appointment three weeks out, at a hospital that is an hours' drive away. The appointment would only be scheduled between 8:30 am and 4:30 pm, Monday through Friday. Even assuming I would walk right in and be seen, it would take me an hour to get there, an hour there, then an hour back to work. Who can blow half a day on an hour-long appointment? I can't.
One issue I was particularly perturbed about was the Post Deployment Health Readiness Assessment (PDHRA). This was the Army's paper trail, so the top brass could say, "Look! We're accomplishing something!" Actually, they were only tracking, not treating. I filled out the form five times from October 2005 to December 2006. In all five instances, I asked for help from a mental health professional. In all five instances, I received no help and no follow-up calls.
In late February 2007, I was so incensed that the PDHRA was being bandied about by Generals as proof that they were tracking troops' mental health problems, that I called the civilian company that is supposed to handle the forms. Eventually, a program manager told me my case was closed.
My case was closed? I was incredulous. I made him read the part on the copies of the forms where I asked for contact from a mental health professional, which he did. Then I asked him to show me the record of said professional contacting me, which he could not do. He asked me to again fill out the form and said he would reopen my case. I did what was asked dutifully, and waited.
Two weeks later, the PDHRA folks finally called me back. It only took 16 months.
I held nothing back from them and told them what was weighing on my mind. I had nothing to lose. In a span of minutes, I was on the phone with a counselor, then social worker from the local VA hospital. They took no chances and scheduled appointments as quickly as possible, and at an outpatient clinic that was minutes from my house.
That's the good news. The bad news is my first appointment was 2 weeks later. There are those that might not have lasted that long..."
Thankfully, help came in time for Drew. But it took a full sixteen months for the military and veterans affairs' systems to respond to his repeated requests for counseling. During that time, Drew was suffering from depression, anger, and flashbacks.
You can take action to help veterans like Drew get the help they need. Last week, IAVA officially endorsed legislation introduced by Congressman Jim Moran of Virginia, calling for the creation of a national veteran's suicide prevention hotline. The bill is making its way through the House, and we will be pushing to get it passed. And you can help. Contact your elected officials and urge them to support this bill. This is just one step of many that will be necessary to ensure that all veterans get the care and treatment they deserve -- whether their wounds are hidden or not.
BBB, If you think the veteran's administration is over-whelmed now, Bush cut funding for the department starting in 2008/09.
Support our troops has a whole new meaning.
The Iraqi gov't isn't officially counting casualties any longer, so that those who support the current actions can say 'reported casualties are down.' Of course, they are down, when you don't report them!
Cycloptichorn
Besides Bush and Petraeus, who believes the 30,000 more troops will secure Iraq? Raise you hands. Explain why.
Quote:
Reagan did resist the terrorists in Central America and they stopped growing.
What did Reagan do in Central America that Bush43 did not do and is not doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?
You support death squads, trained to murder women and Children? That's what Reagan did in Central America. You are aware of this, right?
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:Quote:
Reagan did resist the terrorists in Central America and they stopped growing.
What did Reagan do in Central America that Bush43 did not do and is not doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?
You support death squads, trained to murder women and Children? That's what Reagan did in Central America. You are aware of this, right?
Cycloptichorn
Malarkey! Cyclo, you ought to know better.
Americans trained good guys in Central America to exterminate those bad guys in Central America who were murdering the good guys and their women and children. These American trained good guys often attacked villages containing large numbers of bad guys. The frequent result was that many of these villages and their bad guy inhabitants (including their women and children) were obliterated/exterminated.
But whether you approve or disapprove such tactics is not the point of this discussion. The point of this discussion is that bad guys grow and murder when they are
not resisted and when they are
ineffectively resisted. They do not grow and murder when they are
effectively resisted.
The real issue is that Bush failed to finish the job in good time in Afghanistan, and jumped into Iraq with our military without foresight and planning for after the war. The borders remained wide open, munitions left by Saddam were taken over the the terrorists, and Iraq became a training ground for al Qaida.
Get your head out of the dark side of your arse.
That's just plain silly.
It's incredible that you actually believe that stuff.
The Iraq oil was and would have remained available to us at market prices just like Saudi or anyone else's oil. And it would have been available to us at prices a hell of lot lower than they are currently.
