9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Feb, 2007 03:47 pm
Another opinion:
2/12/2007 Status of War on Terror
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2007 05:17 pm
Bernard Lewis on How the Islamist World Sees It's Battle with the West
by Jonathan Rosenblum
Jerusalem Post
February 8, 2007

Last week, I was privileged to attend a lecture by Bernard Lewis at
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The audience greeted the
nonagenarian scholar with a degree of reverence and adulation that
probably no other academic in the world commands. Many stood at the
end of his presentation, and I fully expected to hear cries of "Bravo!
Bravo!" Younger members of the audience will one day tell their
children how they heard Lewis, still in full command of his subject,
in much the way that aging baby-boomers regale their offspring with
memories of Grateful Dead concerts.

Lewis was part of a double feature that began with the screening of
Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West, a powerful
documentary that has been widely shown on American TV, but for some
inexplicable reason has yet to appear on Israel TV. One of the film's
great merits is the prominence given to the testimony of Arabs and
Muslims. Nonie Darwish, daughter of the Egyptian military commander of
Gaza in the '50s, killed in battle with Israeli forces; Walid Shoehat
(an alias), a former PLO member and Israeli security prisoner,
Brigitte Gabriel, a black Lebanese Christian, raised to hate Jews, and
The Jerusalem Post's own Khaled Abu Toameh, whose courage and
reporting it would be impossible to praise too highly, all appear
frequently.

Equally powerful is the late Alfons Heck, a commander in the Hitler
Youth, who compares the indoctrination of Muslim youth to that of Nazi
Germany, and wonders at the world's inability to see the parallel.
Martin Gilbert, Churchill's official biographer, recounts how
Churchill saw himself as a failure for his inability to make his
countrymen see the looming danger posed by Hitler.

Gilbert clearly feels the same sense of frustration today at the
Western world's refusal "to connect the dots" and see radical Islam as
a global problem. Recognizing radical Islam as a single problem,
Gilbert archly observed, would obligate the West to do something - and
that it has no more interest in doing than Chamberlain had in
confronting Hitler. (Incidentally, the film contains clips of the
smugly smiling Chamberlain on his return from Munich, as he proclaims
"peace in our time" to a roaring throng.)

The pairing of Obsession and Bernard Lewis proved a happy one. No one
is better positioned to comment on the deformations that have seized
the Muslim world than he. He has been studying the Muslim world for 70
years, and writes with great affection and respect for the historical
achievements of Muslim civilization and religion. At the same time, he
has become the leading student of what went wrong with the Muslim
world and led to the radical Islam, seeking world dominion, so
horrifyingly portrayed in Obsession.

Lewis noted, for instance, that classical anti-Semitism, in the sense
of attributing cosmic evil to Jews, has no historical antecedents in
the Muslim world. The Ottoman sultans were adamant in rejecting the
blood libel. European anti-Semitism is a late import into Islam,
fostered by the close association of the Nazis with the Mufti of
Jerusalem and Ba'athist groups in Iraq and Syria.

ONE OF the most important points made by Lewis concerned the
historiography of the Islamists. Most in the West view the fall of the
Soviet Union as a consequence of the Reagan administration's decision
to confront it and engage it in an arms race that proved ruinous to
the Soviet economy, but that is not how the Islamists see things. In
their view, the Soviet Union was destroyed by mujahideen in
Afghanistan, who drove the mighty Soviet army from the country. And
that view, says Lewis, is not entirely implausible.

Osama bin Laden wrote at the time that Muslims had defeated the more
dangerous of their two main enemies, and that defeating the effeminate
Americans would prove easier. The appetite of the Islamists in Teheran
to expand the area under their control has been similarly whetted by
ongoing Western fecklessness.

"Iran is a mortal threat," says Lewis. And he does not believe
Ahmadinejad will be deterred from using nuclear weapons by the fear of
retaliation. Mutual assured destruction does not work - indeed it may
even be an incentive - to those who view a nuclear conflagration as
hastening the advent of the hidden 12th imam. If they martyr their own
people in the process, Lewis commented, they have only done them a
favor by providing them a quick pass to the great brothel in the sky.

THE DAY after the Lewis lecture, I had lunch with a senior American
official in the country for the Herzliya Conference, and mentioned
Lewis's point about jihadist historiography. The need to avoid
providing further credence to that narrative, he replied, is precisely
why the United States cannot allow Iran to go nuclear or be perceived
as fleeing Iraq. Either event would only confirm the narrative of
Islam's advance and Western weakness. Iranian possession of the Bomb
would cause to skyrocket the status of a state with an explicitly
expansionist agenda under the banner of Islam. Every anti-Western
terror group in the world would seek protection under Iran's nuclear
umbrella.

To stress the point, the official emphasized one of Obsession's main
points - appeasement of expansionist powers only leads to a far more
destructive confrontation later on - and referred me to a nearly
20-year-old Commentary article on the Munich agreements. Had France
and England adopted a tough stance at Munich, Hitler's generals were
prepared to unseat him. Instead, Czechoslovakia was stripped of its
main defense line in the treacherous Sudeten mountains. It was, in
Hitler's words, "served up to me," and a clear path to Eastern Europe
provided for the Germans. Czechoslovakia's wealth and well-developed
military industries thereafter played a major role in powering the
Nazi war machine.

Unfortunately, the West still remains divided between America and a
Europe unwilling to acknowledge the threat at its doorsteps, and in
many cases within its gates. That same divide exists within America
itself. As Jeff Jacoby points out, every Republican presidential
hopeful lists the battle against the jihadists/global jihad/radical
Islam/totalitarian Islam at the top of their priorities for the years
to come. That battle barely rates a mention on the Web sites of any of
the eight declared Democratic candidates.

The future depends on who wins the debate in the West no less than it
did at Munich.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2007 05:22 pm
Victory Is Not an Option
The Mission Can't Be Accomplished -- It's Time for a New Strategy
By William E. Odom
Washington Post
Sunday, February 11, 2007; Page B01

The new National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq starkly delineates the gulf that separates President Bush's illusions from the realities of the war. Victory, as the president sees it, requires a stable liberal democracy in Iraq that is pro-American. The NIE describes a war that has no chance of producing that result. In this critical respect, the NIE, the consensus judgment of all the U.S. intelligence agencies, is a declaration of defeat.

Its gloomy implications -- hedged, as intelligence agencies prefer, in rubbery language that cannot soften its impact -- put the intelligence community and the American public on the same page. The public awakened to the reality of failure in Iraq last year and turned the Republicans out of control of Congress to wake it up. But a majority of its members are still asleep, or only half-awake to their new writ to end the war soon.

Perhaps this is not surprising. Americans do not warm to defeat or failure, and our politicians are famously reluctant to admit their own responsibility for anything resembling those un-American outcomes. So they beat around the bush, wringing hands and debating "nonbinding resolutions" that oppose the president's plan to increase the number of U.S. troops in Iraq.

For the moment, the collision of the public's clarity of mind, the president's relentless pursuit of defeat and Congress's anxiety has paralyzed us. We may be doomed to two more years of chasing the mirage of democracy in Iraq and possibly widening the war to Iran. But this is not inevitable. A Congress, or a president, prepared to quit the game of "who gets the blame" could begin to alter American strategy in ways that will vastly improve the prospects of a more stable Middle East.

No task is more important to the well-being of the United States. We face great peril in that troubled region, and improving our prospects will be difficult. First of all, it will require, from Congress at least, public acknowledgment that the president's policy is based on illusions, not realities. There never has been any right way to invade and transform Iraq. Most Americans need no further convincing, but two truths ought to put the matter beyond question:

First, the assumption that the United States could create a liberal, constitutional democracy in Iraq defies just about everything known by professional students of the topic. Of the more than 40 democracies created since World War II, fewer than 10 can be considered truly "constitutional" -- meaning that their domestic order is protected by a broadly accepted rule of law, and has survived for at least a generation. None is a country with Arabic and Muslim political cultures. None has deep sectarian and ethnic fissures like those in Iraq.

Strangely, American political scientists whose business it is to know these things have been irresponsibly quiet. In the lead-up to the March 2003 invasion, neoconservative agitators shouted insults at anyone who dared to mention the many findings of academic research on how democracies evolve. They also ignored our own struggles over two centuries to create the democracy Americans enjoy today. Somehow Iraqis are now expected to create a constitutional order in a country with no conditions favoring it.

This is not to say that Arabs cannot become liberal democrats. When they immigrate to the United States, many do so quickly. But it is to say that Arab countries, as well as a large majority of all countries, find creating a stable constitutional democracy beyond their capacities.

Second, to expect any Iraqi leader who can hold his country together to be pro-American, or to share American goals, is to abandon common sense. It took the United States more than a century to get over its hostility toward British occupation. (In 1914, a majority of the public favored supporting Germany against Britain.) Every month of the U.S. occupation, polls have recorded Iraqis' rising animosity toward the United States. Even supporters of an American military presence say that it is acceptable temporarily and only to prevent either of the warring sides in Iraq from winning. Today the Iraqi government survives only because its senior members and their families live within the heavily guarded Green Zone, which houses the U.S. Embassy and military command.

As Congress awakens to these realities -- and a few members have bravely pointed them out -- will it act on them? Not necessarily. Too many lawmakers have fallen for the myths that are invoked to try to sell the president's new war aims. Let us consider the most pernicious of them.

1) We must continue the war to prevent the terrible aftermath that will occur if our forces are withdrawn soon. Reflect on the double-think of this formulation. We are now fighting to prevent what our invasion made inevitable! Undoubtedly we will leave a mess -- the mess we created, which has become worse each year we have remained. Lawmakers gravely proclaim their opposition to the war, but in the next breath express fear that quitting it will leave a blood bath, a civil war, a terrorist haven, a "failed state," or some other horror. But this "aftermath" is already upon us; a prolonged U.S. occupation cannot prevent what already exists.

2) We must continue the war to prevent Iran's influence from growing in Iraq. This is another absurd notion. One of the president's initial war aims, the creation of a democracy in Iraq, ensured increased Iranian influence, both in Iraq and the region. Electoral democracy, predictably, would put Shiite groups in power -- groups supported by Iran since Saddam Hussein repressed them in 1991. Why are so many members of Congress swallowing the claim that prolonging the war is now supposed to prevent precisely what starting the war inexorably and predictably caused? Fear that Congress will confront this contradiction helps explain the administration and neocon drumbeat we now hear for expanding the war to Iran.

Here we see shades of the Nixon-Kissinger strategy in Vietnam: widen the war into Cambodia and Laos. Only this time, the adverse consequences would be far greater. Iran's ability to hurt U.S. forces in Iraq are not trivial. And the anti-American backlash in the region would be larger, and have more lasting consequences.

3) We must prevent the emergence of a new haven for al-Qaeda in Iraq. But it was the U.S. invasion that opened Iraq's doors to al-Qaeda. The longer U.S. forces have remained there, the stronger al-Qaeda has become. Yet its strength within the Kurdish and Shiite areas is trivial. After a U.S. withdrawal, it will probably play a continuing role in helping the Sunni groups against the Shiites and the Kurds. Whether such foreign elements could remain or thrive in Iraq after the resolution of civil war is open to question. Meanwhile, continuing the war will not push al-Qaeda outside Iraq. On the contrary, the American presence is the glue that holds al-Qaeda there now.

4) We must continue to fight in order to "support the troops." This argument effectively paralyzes almost all members of Congress. Lawmakers proclaim in grave tones a litany of problems in Iraq sufficient to justify a rapid pullout. Then they reject that logical conclusion, insisting we cannot do so because we must support the troops. Has anybody asked the troops?

During their first tours, most may well have favored "staying the course" -- whatever that meant to them -- but now in their second, third and fourth tours, many are changing their minds. We see evidence of that in the many news stories about unhappy troops being sent back to Iraq. Veterans groups are beginning to make public the case for bringing them home. Soldiers and officers in Iraq are speaking out critically to reporters on the ground.

But the strangest aspect of this rationale for continuing the war is the implication that the troops are somehow responsible for deciding to continue the president's course. That political and moral responsibility belongs to the president, not the troops. Did not President Harry S. Truman make it clear that "the buck stops" in the Oval Office? If the president keeps dodging it, where does it stop? With Congress?

Embracing the four myths gives Congress excuses not to exercise its power of the purse to end the war and open the way for a strategy that might actually bear fruit.

The first and most critical step is to recognize that fighting on now simply prolongs our losses and blocks the way to a new strategy. Getting out of Iraq is the pre-condition for creating new strategic options. Withdrawal will take away the conditions that allow our enemies in the region to enjoy our pain. It will awaken those European states reluctant to collaborate with us in Iraq and the region.

Second, we must recognize that the United States alone cannot stabilize the Middle East.

Third, we must acknowledge that most of our policies are actually destabilizing the region. Spreading democracy, using sticks to try to prevent nuclear proliferation, threatening "regime change," using the hysterical rhetoric of the "global war on terrorism" -- all undermine the stability we so desperately need in the Middle East.

Fourth, we must redefine our purpose. It must be a stable region, not primarily a democratic Iraq. We must redirect our military operations so they enhance rather than undermine stability. We can write off the war as a "tactical draw" and make "regional stability" our measure of "victory." That single step would dramatically realign the opposing forces in the region, where most states want stability. Even many in the angry mobs of young Arabs shouting profanities against the United States want predictable order, albeit on better social and economic terms than they now have.

Realigning our diplomacy and military capabilities to achieve order will hugely reduce the numbers of our enemies and gain us new and important allies. This cannot happen, however, until our forces are moving out of Iraq. Why should Iran negotiate to relieve our pain as long as we are increasing its influence in Iraq and beyond? Withdrawal will awaken most leaders in the region to their own need for U.S.-led diplomacy to stabilize their neighborhood.

If Bush truly wanted to rescue something of his historical legacy, he would seize the initiative to implement this kind of strategy. He would eventually be held up as a leader capable of reversing direction by turning an imminent, tragic defeat into strategic recovery.

If he stays on his present course, he will leave Congress the opportunity to earn the credit for such a turnaround. It is already too late to wait for some presidential candidate for 2008 to retrieve the situation. If Congress cannot act, it, too, will live in infamy.

[email protected]

William E. Odom, a retired Army lieutenant general, was head of Army intelligence and director of the National Security Agency under Ronald Reagan. He served on the National Security Council staff under Jimmy Carter. A West Point graduate with a PhD from Columbia, Odom teaches at Yale
and is a fellow of the Hudson Institute.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2007 10:42 pm
From the NYT.

By LIZETTE ALVAREZ
Published: February 14, 2007
The number of waivers granted to Army recruits with criminal backgrounds has grown about 65 percent in the last three years, increasing to 8,129 in 2006 from 4,918 in 2003, Department of Defense records show.

During that time, the Army has employed a variety of tactics to expand its diminishing pool of recruits. It has offered larger enlistment cash bonuses, allowed more high school dropouts and applicants with low scores on its aptitude test to join, and loosened weight and age restrictions.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 12:50 pm
ARE THOSE WITH CRIMINAL BACKGROUNDS CRIMINALS?

WILL THOSE WITH CRIMINAL BACKGROUNDS ALWAYS BE CRIMINALS?

INCREASING IN 2006 FROM 4927 TO 8,129.

1.65 x 4,927 = 8,129.

What was the total recruitment by the military in 2006?
If it were say 81,290, then the percentage of those recruited with criminal backgrounds would be 10%.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 12:55 pm
Well, I think we can agree that this isn't a positive development, though it is arguable how much of a negative impact it can have.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 01:25 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well, I think we can agree that this isn't a positive development, though it is arguable how much of a negative impact it can have.

Cycloptichorn

This could be positive; could be negative.

This development may in fact help those recruited with criminal records turn their lives around away from future criminal behavior.

Of course those recruited with criminal records might be incapable of such a turn around and continue their criminal behavior while in the military.

Before I would dare guess which they will subsequently be, I would need to know much more about the actual nature of the crimes committed by those recruited with criminal records.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 01:29 pm
Given that it is argued continually by many on the Right that the problems we have faced in Iraq - PR problems having to do with our penchant for torture and murder - are the fault of 'bad apples.'

It is logical to assume that those with a criminal record are far more likely to be a 'bad apple' than the average soldier, who has no history of criminal activity.

Therefore, how can it be seen as a positive thing for the US? If 7 out of 10 of the additional recruits w/criminal backgrounds are turning their lives around, great. If the other three are learning skills to take back to their gangs, stealing, murdering, torturing and raping - all things that we know have happened in Iraq due to 'bad apples' - then the US suffers a huge loss in PR terms.

The limited benefit to the lives of individual soldiers does not outweigh the additional damage potential caused by having a higher percentage of criminals in the armed forces. As I said above, it's hard to see how this is a good thing.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 04:50 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Given that it is argued continually by many on the Right that the problems we have faced in Iraq - PR problems having to do with our penchant for torture and murder - are the fault of 'bad apples.'

I too think our PR problems are caused by 'bad apples.'

It is logical to assume that those with a criminal record are far more likely to be a 'bad apple' than the average soldier, who has no history of criminal activity.

I share the same bias. But I must admit that I do not know if any of those 'bad apples' to date had criminal records before they committed crimes in the military.

Therefore, how can it be seen as a positive thing for the US? If 7 out of 10 of the additional recruits w/criminal backgrounds are turning their lives around, great. If the other three are learning skills to take back to their gangs, stealing, murdering, torturing and raping - all things that we know have happened in Iraq due to 'bad apples' - then the US suffers a huge loss in PR terms.

The limited benefit to the lives of individual soldiers does not outweigh the additional damage potential caused by having a higher percentage of criminals in the armed forces. As I said above, it's hard to see how this is a good thing.

The question is: Do the additional non-bad-apple recruits with criminal records plus the additional 'bad apple' recruits with criminal records together net a benefit or net a loss?

I think our PR problems are trivial compared to our man power and fighting problems.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 05:22 pm
Quote:

I think our PR problems are trivial compared to our man power and fighting problems.


I know you do, but this stems from your fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of this war. The PR war is as important to our victory as anything else - more important in the long run by far than mere numbers of troops.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 11:58 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

I think our PR problems are trivial compared to our man power and fighting problems.


I know you do, but this stems from your fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of this war. The PR war is as important to our victory as anything else - more important in the long run by far than mere numbers of troops.

Cycloptichorn

I agree that solutions of our PR problems are necessary for our victory, but they certainly are not sufficient for our victory.

The enormity of the PR problems that evolved from the enormous and disgusting exaggeration of the shameful events at Abu Grave (sic) and Quantstinkomo (sic) et cetera, were themselves caused by larger domestic PR problems that preceeded them. These preceeding PR problems were caused primarily by three domestic PR problems. The first is the obsession of too many Americans with destroying George Bush's effectiveness. The second is the obsession of too many Americans with sabotaging America's effectiveness. The third is caused by past US military blunders in Iraq. So if George Bush were to suddenly vanish from the earth, the problem of our inadequate effectiveness in fighting in Iraq would still have to be solved. That third problem, even if Bush were to vanish, will not be solved until the second problem is solved.

The US cannot stabilize the mass murderers in Iraq, much less than win over them, if the US pulls out of Iraq prior to at least stabilizing them. However, the US will surely fail to stabilize the mass murderers in Iraq, even if the US remains in Iraq, if this resolution is passed:
Quote:
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), that
(1) Congress and the American people will continue to support and protect the members of the United States Armed Forces who are serving or who have served bravely and honorably in Iraq; and
(2) Congress disapproves of the decision of President George W. Bush announced on Jan. 10, 2007, to deploy more than 20,000 additional United States combat troops to Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 12:38 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

I think our PR problems are trivial compared to our man power and fighting problems.


I know you do, but this stems from your fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of this war. The PR war is as important to our victory as anything else - more important in the long run by far than mere numbers of troops.

Cycloptichorn

I agree that solutions of our PR problems are necessary for our victory, but they certainly are not sufficient for our victory.


Hmm, I disagree, naturally. PR is the critical component for our victory. PR is what will convince the average Iraqi to give up the terrorists in their midst; convince them that the good guys are the Iraqi gov't and the US gov't, and not militias and insurgents; convince them that democracy works if you give it a chance.

Without convincing the population of the above things, there is no military solution. Period. You can't kill your way out of a fight in which the enemy continually recruits more soldiers, without decimating the population base that they are drawing from.

Quote:
The enormity of the PR problems that evolved from the enormous and disgusting exaggeration of the shameful events at Abu Grave (sic) and Quantstinkomo (sic) et cetera, were themselves caused by larger domestic PR problems that preceeded them.


You couldn't be more wrong. The problem with Abu Ghraib is that we were torturing, raping and murdering Iraqi prisoners. The PR problem was that people found out about the perfidy that our 'bad apples' were accomplishing all by their lonesomes. You see, noone other than yourself and maybe a few other Republicans actually believe that the US gov't didn't order and know exactly what was going on there. Huge PR disaster, not predicated by the 'liberal media' at all.

Quote:
These preceeding PR problems were caused primarily by three domestic PR problems. The first is the obsession of too many Americans with destroying George Bush's effectiveness. The second is the obsession of too many Americans with sabotaging America's effectiveness.


These aren't PR problems. You are basically stating that it is a PR problem that people disagree with Bush, and that's bullsh*t - it's a policy and strategy problem.

Quote:
The third is caused by past US military blunders in Iraq.


Also not a PR problem. It appears that reality itself is a PR problem for Bush supporters; it continually assails their positions and just won't quit. The Liberal Media is blamed for actually bothering to inform people what's going on.

You see, the problem with the Liberal Media is that they inform people about things the Republicans' don't want them to know. See this letter, sent by Shaddeg and Hoekstra to their fellow Republicans talking about the debate over the resolution you've reprinted below - here's two important sections:

Quote:
Thanks to the Liberal Mainstream media, the American people fully understand the consequences of continuing our efforts in Iraq - both in American lives and dollars.


This is a negative for the Republicans, you see, that the American people understand this. It hurts their position.

Quote:
If we let Democrats force us into a debate on the surge, or the current situation in Iraq, we lose.


And he's absolutely right - the Republicans know they are on the losing end of the Iraq debate.

The things that you call 'PR failures' aren't PR failures - they are failures of the Republican leadership which are reported in the media.

Quote:
So if George Bush were to suddenly vanish from the earth, the problem of our inadequate effectiveness in fighting in Iraq would still have to be solved. That third problem, even if Bush were to vanish, will not be solved until the second problem is solved.


You are incorrect if you think our military failures in Iraq have anything to do at all with the reporting on the war or on Bush's effectiveness as a leader. Just hyperbole on your part.

Quote:
The US cannot stabilize the mass murderers in Iraq, much less than win over them, if the US pulls out of Iraq prior to at least stabilizing them.


The US cannot stabilize Iraq, period. It doesn't matter if we stay or leave, if the Iraqis wish to continue fighting, they will do so.

Quote:
However, the US will surely fail to stabilize the mass murderers in Iraq, even if the US remains in Iraq, if this resolution is passed:
Quote:
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), that
(1) Congress and the American people will continue to support and protect the members of the United States Armed Forces who are serving or who have served bravely and honorably in Iraq; and
(2) Congress disapproves of the decision of President George W. Bush announced on Jan. 10, 2007, to deploy more than 20,000 additional United States combat troops to Iraq.


I'll go ahead and mark this down next to your other failed predictions. I can't actually remember one that you've gotten right about the Iraq war, so far, actually. You may want to reconsider your penchant for making predictions given your track record, which I think we both can see is not one of success.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 12:44 pm
It seems the media is latching onto the news from Iraq that our troops with the support of the Iraqis are beginning to "control" some of the zones around Sadr City.

What the generals and Bush fail to understand is that any temporary success in controlling the violence will return as soon as the surge troops return home.

It wasn't that long ago when Bush used to tell the American People about not telling our enemies about timelines, because they'll just wait it out.

He's fallen into his own trap.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 02:41 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

The US cannot stabilize Iraq, period. It doesn't matter if we stay or leave, if the Iraqis wish to continue fighting, they will do so.

ican711nm wrote:
]However, the US will surely fail to stabilize the mass murderers in Iraq, even if the US remains in Iraq, if this resolution is passed:
Quote:
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), that
(1) Congress and the American people will continue to support and protect the members of the United States Armed Forces who are serving or who have served bravely and honorably in Iraq; and
(2) Congress disapproves of the decision of President George W. Bush announced on Jan. 10, 2007, to deploy more than 20,000 additional United States combat troops to Iraq.


I'll go ahead and mark this down next to your other failed predictions. I can't actually remember one that you've gotten right about the Iraq war, so far, actually. You may want to reconsider your penchant for making predictions given your track record, which I think we both can see is not one of success.

Cycloptichorn

I intend to comment on your entire post. Before I do, I would like clarification on the above.

I'm predicting that if that resolution passes, we will surely fail to stabilize Iraq.

Are you saying that we cannot stabilize Iraq no matter what we do?

If you are saying that, and if we fail to stabilize Iraq after this resolution passes, how will we know whether you or I am correct?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 02:54 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

The US cannot stabilize Iraq, period. It doesn't matter if we stay or leave, if the Iraqis wish to continue fighting, they will do so.

ican711nm wrote:
]However, the US will surely fail to stabilize the mass murderers in Iraq, even if the US remains in Iraq, if this resolution is passed:
Quote:
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), that
(1) Congress and the American people will continue to support and protect the members of the United States Armed Forces who are serving or who have served bravely and honorably in Iraq; and
(2) Congress disapproves of the decision of President George W. Bush announced on Jan. 10, 2007, to deploy more than 20,000 additional United States combat troops to Iraq.


I'll go ahead and mark this down next to your other failed predictions. I can't actually remember one that you've gotten right about the Iraq war, so far, actually. You may want to reconsider your penchant for making predictions given your track record, which I think we both can see is not one of success.

Cycloptichorn

I intend to comment on your entire post. Before I do, I would like clarification on the above.

I'm predicting that if that resolution passes, we will surely fail to stabilize Iraq.

Are you saying that we cannot stabilize Iraq no matter what we do?


Yes, that's what I'm saying. We cannot impose stability upon a society which doesn't choose to accept it.

While there are undoubtedly many (most) Iraqis who want peace, they just aren't willing to fight for their peace the way that those who want instability are willing to fight for instability. Unless the Iraqis can get their act together and fight as hard for peace as the forces within their society which are fighting against it, nothing we do will be effective.

Quote:
If you are saying that, and if we fail to stabilize Iraq after this resolution passes, how will we know whether you or I am correct?


We won't. Thus the futility of your prediction.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 03:39 pm
Pelosi: Bush lacks authority to invade

By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent
10 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (news, bio, voting record) said Thursday that President Bush lacks the authority to invade Iran without specific approval from Congress, a fresh challenge to the commander in chief on the eve of a symbolic vote critical of his troop buildup in Iraq.


Pelosi, D-Calif., noted that Bush consistently said he supports a diplomatic resolution to differences with Iran "and I take him at his word."

At the same time, she said, "I do believe that Congress should assert itself, though, and make it very clear that there is no previous authority for the president, any president, to go into Iran."


We'll see if this holds true. The congress has been without the guts and actions that show they will do anything if Bush attacks Iran. Rhetoric is useless and worthless.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 03:55 pm
Pelosi: Bush lacks authority to invade. Cheney, " who can stop us"? Bushie implies Proof doesn't matter
http://www.rawstory.com/ / news/ 2007/ Bush_says_Iran_supplying_weapons_to_0214.html
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 04:14 pm
THIS ARTICLE provides more details surrounding "leaks," going back to the 9-11 attack.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 06:21 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
ican711nm wrote:
I agree that solutions of our PR problems are necessary for our victory, but they certainly are not sufficient for our victory.


Hmm, I disagree, naturally. PR is the critical component for our victory. PR is what will convince the average Iraqi to give up the terrorists in their midst; convince them that the good guys are the Iraqi gov't and the US gov't, and not militias and insurgents; convince them that democracy works if you give it a chance.

I disagree. PR will not "convince the average Iraqi to give up the terrorists in their midst." Only clear progress toward extermination of the terrorists in their midst will convince the Iraqis to risk giving up the terrorists in their midst and again dare to aspire to the establishment of a viable democracy in Iraq. Failure to achieve that clear progress, despite the most articulate PR, will fail to convince the average Iraqi "that the good guys are the Iraqi gov't and the US gov't, and not militias and insurgents." They already know "that democracy works if you give it a chance." What they don't know is how to give it a chance without first exterminating the terrorists in their midst.

Without convincing the population of the above things, there is no military solution. Period. You can't kill your way out of a fight in which the enemy continually recruits more soldiers, without decimating the population base that they are drawing from.

WRONG! You have zero evidence there is no military solution. In the history of humankind there is a preponderance of evidence that there is a military solution; that killing--or threatening to kill the enemy-- until the enemy ceases being your enemy is the necessary military solution to both start and save a democracy. To believe otherwise is to believe a fiction, a myth, a fantasy, a mindless religion.
...
The problem with Abu Ghraib is that we were torturing, raping and murdering Iraqi prisoners.

That is another myth. WE were not torturing, raping and murdering Iraqi prisoners. WE were humiliating, frightening, tiring, questioning, and sometimes wrongly incarcerating Iraqi prisoners in the belief we could thereby extract information from them that would save Iraqi lives. Yes, there were a few members of our military that did murdered Iraqi prisoners, but those few were not us--not the American military and not the American people--and were punished accordingly.

The PR problem was that people found out about the perfidy that our 'bad apples' were accomplishing all by their lonesomes. You see, noone other than yourself and maybe a few other Republicans actually believe that the US gov't didn't order and know exactly what was going on there. Huge PR disaster, not predicated by the 'liberal media' at all.

MALARKY! This malarkey pumped up and spread far and wide is what actually led to OUR PR disaster. The US gov't did not order and did not know exactly what was going on there. But the US gov't did know what horrorible crimes the terrorists were perpetrating on the Iraqi people.

ican711nm wrote:
These preceeding PR problems were caused primarily by three domestic PR problems. The first is the obsession of too many Americans with destroying George Bush's effectiveness. The second is the obsession of too many Americans with sabotaging America's effectiveness.


These aren't PR problems. You are basically stating that it is a PR problem that people disagree with Bush, and that's bullsh*t - it's a policy and strategy problem.

I am not saying that. I am saying that too many Americans are obsessed with destroying George Bush's effectiveness.

ican711nm wrote:
The third is caused by past US military blunders in Iraq.


Also not a PR problem. It appears that reality itself is a PR problem for Bush supporters; it continually assails their positions and just won't quit. The Liberal Media is blamed for actually bothering to inform people what's going on.

I am not blaming the Liberal Media for the blunders of the US military in Iraq. I blame that on the Bush administration for misdirecting and excessively restricting the US military in Iraq. That misdirection and excessive restriction crippled our military's capabilities to the point of preventing them from exterminating the terrorists and protecting the Iraqi people. That in turn caused the American public to become disgusted with the war in Iraq. However, rarely mentioned by the Liberal Media is the fact that the polls revealed that a super majority of the American public want us "to win and not lose" in Iraq.

You see, the problem with the Liberal Media is that they inform people about things the Republicans' don't want them to know. See this letter, sent by Shaddeg and Hoekstra to their fellow Republicans talking about the debate over the resolution you've reprinted below - here's two important sections:

Quote:
Thanks to the Liberal Mainstream media, the American people fully understand the consequences of continuing our efforts in Iraq - both in American lives and dollars.


This is a negative for the Republicans, you see, that the American people understand this. It hurts their position.

MALARKEY! Rather we the American people fully understand the consequences of losing in Iraq - both in American lives and dollars.

Quote:
If we let Democrats force us into a debate on the surge, or the current situation in Iraq, we lose.


And he's absolutely right - the Republicans know they are on the losing end of the Iraq debate.

MALARKEY! The Republican leadership tried repeatedly, and is still trying, to get the Democrats to debate the probable consequences of our losing versus our winning in Iraq. The Democrats don't dare. The best evidence of that is their failure to propose a resolution to leave Iraq by a date certain.

The things that you call 'PR failures' aren't PR failures - they are failures of the Republican leadership which are reported in the media.

MALARKEY! The PR failures are the failures of the Liberal Media to report reality. Here you will find some evidence of that:
2/12/2007 Status of War on Terror

Quote:
So if George Bush were to suddenly vanish from the earth, the problem of our inadequate effectiveness in fighting in Iraq would still have to be solved. That third problem, even if Bush were to vanish, will not be solved until the second problem is solved.


You are incorrect if you think our military failures in Iraq have anything to do at all with the reporting on the war or on Bush's effectiveness as a leader. Just hyperbole on your part.

I am correct that our military failures in Iraq have had a major thing to do with the assessment by the American people of Bush's effectiveness.
...
The rest of your post I covered in my previous post


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 08:00 pm
Auditors: Billions squandered in Iraq

By HOPE YEN, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 28 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - About $10 billion has been squandered by the U.S. government on Iraq reconstruction aid because of contractor overcharges and unsupported expenses, and federal investigators warned Thursday that significantly more taxpayer money is at risk.


The three top auditors overseeing work in Iraq told a House committee their review of $57 billion in Iraq contracts found that Defense and State department officials condoned or allowed repeated work delays, bloated expenses and payments for shoddy work or work never done.
0 Replies
 
 

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