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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2008 03:37 pm
I will not set any goal; that's up to the Iraqis to control, not the US military.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2008 04:35 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I will not set any goal; that's up to the Iraqis to control, not the US military.

I did not ask you to set a goal. I asked you: What goals do you recommend?

Unless I hear differently from you, I will assume that you do not wish to even recommend a goal or goals.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2008 04:53 pm
It's not my place to "recommend" anything about the situation in Iraq - or any place else. I have opinions about the past and current situation of most places - including the US, but it doesn't come close to "recommending" what we or the Iraqis should do, because it's the president who makes those decisions, and my "voice" has no meaning to them.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2008 07:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's not my place to "recommend" anything about the situation in Iraq - or any place else. I have opinions about the past and current situation of most places - including the US, but it doesn't come close to "recommending" what we or the Iraqis should do, because it's the president who makes those decisions, and my "voice" has no meaning to them.

I think maybe I've got it.

You think it's not your place to "recommend" anything about what people should do next, because it's others who make those decisions, and because your opinion has no meaning either to those who decide or to those who are affected by the decisions made by those who decide.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2008 07:04 pm
I think you've got it! (Finally)
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2008 08:59 pm
Just checking in here. Has this ap story from today been posted?

Iraqi violence down; war's root causes unresolved

First two paragraphs of this story:

"BAGHDAD - Signs are emerging that Iraq has reached a turning point. Violence is down, armed extremists are in disarray, government confidence is rising and sectarian communities are gearing up for a battle at the polls rather than slaughter in the streets.

Those positive signs are attracting little attention in the United States, where the war-weary public is focused on the American presidential contest and skeptical of talk of success after so many years of unfounded optimism by the war's supporters."


Just a comment, what a nitwit that wrote this story? He just observes that there are positive signs of success, but then says there were many years of unfounded optimism by the wars supporters. Can he read his own story?

Another comment, my first reaction is that the news has to be very very good in Iraq, otherwise I would never expect the AP to write any good news whatsoever. Of course, the writer had to end the story with lots of gloomy what ifs.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 06:54 am
okie wrote:
Just checking in here. Has this ap story from today been posted?

Iraqi violence down; war's root causes unresolved

First two paragraphs of this story:

"BAGHDAD - Signs are emerging that Iraq has reached a turning point. Violence is down, armed extremists are in disarray, government confidence is rising and sectarian communities are gearing up for a battle at the polls rather than slaughter in the streets.

Those positive signs are attracting little attention in the United States, where the war-weary public is focused on the American presidential contest and skeptical of talk of success after so many years of unfounded optimism by the war's supporters."


Just a comment, what a nitwit that wrote this story? He just observes that there are positive signs of success, but then says there were many years of unfounded optimism by the wars supporters. Can he read his own story?

Another comment, my first reaction is that the news has to be very very good in Iraq, otherwise I would never expect the AP to write any good news whatsoever. Of course, the writer had to end the story with lots of gloomy what ifs.


Good grief what is so objectional about reporting americans are leary about believing in any positive news in Iraq after years of hearing unfounded optimism by war supporters? All of that is true.

If things are going so good, then there should no objection about a policy of bringing a majority and in time all of our troops home and start putting our resources closer to home. We don't have to wait to be asked to leave, we can leave when we want; and Americans want to now or as soon as feasibly possible.

I can just hear the arguments of if we leave, civil war will break out--AQ will take over....when would the same not be likely to happen (according to folks who use this argument?)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 09:28 am
If AQ will take over after we leave, that argument will keep US troops there forever. If not next year, when? No end to that argument to keep us there; what's the end game?
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 09:39 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
If AQ will take over after we leave, that argument will keep US troops there forever. If not next year, when? No end to that argument to keep us there; what's the end game?


I don't know it is an endless cycle and nobody can really trust anyone telling the truth about anything in Iraq. I guess in the end a person must choose their own poison about what to believe. I chose the side who has proven to be right more than the other.

Meanwhile A vehicle packed with explosives detonated in a crowded Baghdad marketplace Tuesday, killing 51 people and wounding another 75 blamed on Shiite extremist as they are current boogiemen. Last year it would have been blamed on AQ no contest.

I mean just read their explanation of why they think it was Shiite extremist, it is so flimsy.

Quote:


Juan Cole's comment makes sense.

Quote:
McClatchy says that US military sources suspect a rogue Shiite group of being responsible for the bombing, speculating that the blast may have gone off prematurely and that it had been intended for use against US troops. The evidence given-- a secret Shiite claim of responsibility and the type of explosive-- doesn't seem to me conclusive, and I don't actually think one can rule out Sunni Salafi Jihadis as the perpetrators. I fear that the Pentagon has lied so much in the past, attributing everything bad in Iraq to "al-Qaeda", that their current campaign to blame everything on Shiite extremists linked to Iran seems suspect.

In fact, Hurriya where the bomb went off used to be a mixed neighborhood that is now largely Shiite, and a Sunni revenge bombing in reprisal for the ethnic cleansing that drove Sunnis out seems to me a plausible motive.


http://www.juancole.com/labels/Iraq.html



http://media.farsnews.com/Media/8404/Images/jpg/A0111/A0111771.jpg
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 06:55 am
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/map_of_iraq1.jpg

Quote:


source
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 09:49 am
This means the country is seemingly returning to a more peaceful phase, revel, I am happy about it aren't you?

And this from your quote:
Quote:
...The contracts, which would run for one to two years and are relatively small by industry standards,...


This isn't that lucrative. We are helping them to improve their oil production, isn't that a good thing? We are still paying them market world price for their oil, so I see no benefit here vs buying oil from anywhere else in the world, since you guys won't let us drill for our own oil.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 09:53 am
okie, What's with this "you guys?" The GOP controlled congress for most of the past decade or two.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 10:12 am
I think Clinton vetoed the bill to drill in ANWR, and more recently the Dems are blocking it, as well as offshore drilling. Also, there is continuous opposition to opening up areas for drilling onshore throughout the west at least, mostly from Democratic interest groups and also congressmen and senators. On top of that, you have guys like McCain that have gone along with them. Recently he is changing his stance slightly, but he is ignoring a huge campaign advantage by not pushing the interests of consumers.

There is no doubt in my mind that the handwriting is on the wall, and has been for a very long time, but slowly more and more people are being forced to recognize the obvious, and that is we should help ourselves instead of shooting ourselves in the foot. The Arabs must laugh in private every day at the foolishness we display in our politics and spoiled brat thinking.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 10:24 am
We do need to get our stories straight, though, because the GOP is saying China is drilling near Cuba, and that seems highly questionable.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/40776.html
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 10:27 am
More articles on the "benefits" of drilling for oil in FL or Alaska. The rhetoric from Bush is great, but the benefits are questionable at best. Still playing politics about a topic Bush is completely ignorant about.

http://www.silobreaker.com/DocumentReader.aspx?Item=5_870498322
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 11:00 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
More articles on the "benefits" of drilling for oil in FL or Alaska. The rhetoric from Bush is great, but the benefits are questionable at best. Still playing politics about a topic Bush is completely ignorant about.

http://www.silobreaker.com/DocumentReader.aspx?Item=5_870498322

Come on, ci, he is not completely ignorant at all.

Here is the straight of it.
If we do more drilling in places like Alaska and offshore, this is what it will accomplish.

It will provide an immediate bump in lowering price pressure by the sheer fact that commodities future traders will consider the impact on future oil prices and supply.

It will help our balance of trade and domestic oil production picture at the margins years down the road, as compared to what it will otherwise be if we don't drill.

It will not solve our energy crunch, nor will it make high prices go away, but the situation will be marginally better than it will otherwise be.

It will pick up Alaskan production to replace areas that will decline or are declining on the North Slope.

It will not be a major environmental problem in any way whatsoever. The sky is falling crowd can simmer down and relax if they had any common sense, but they won't.

The future of alternative energy and conservation would still be desperately needed and will be developed as before, but the country will be better off by helping ourselves with domestic oil production, instead of the current suicidal attitude in regard to energy. By drilling and producing our own oil, we simply relieve some of the worst economical effects upon our economy, but it will not produce utopia. It would accomplish infinitely more than producing a little oil out of our strategic petroleum reserve, which some Democrats advocate and which is silliness at best, and irresponsiblly foolish at worst.

P.S. The offshore Cuban drilling sounds inaccurate, but it sounds like preliminary work is being done, such as seismic, and it may not be Chinese altogether, but it could be partly, we don't know, but it appears Cuba intends to move forward, and that is the salient point.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 11:11 am
Quote:
It will provide an immediate bump in lowering price pressure by the sheer fact that commodities future traders will consider the impact on future oil prices and supply.


Assertion. I think oil and commodities traders are well aware that it will take years, if not a decade, to even get the taps turned on up there, let alone begin pumping. It will provide very little if any short-term relief to gas prices and will add practically nothing to the world demand, which we aren't going to be able to keep up with no matter what.

Quote:

It will not be a major environmental problem in any way whatsoever. The sky is falling crowd can simmer down and relax if they had any common sense, but they won't.


Funny, that's what BP said about it's Alaskan pipelines, which ended up dumping a large amount of oil all over the place. I have no confidence that the next try will be any better.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 11:29 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
It will provide an immediate bump in lowering price pressure by the sheer fact that commodities future traders will consider the impact on future oil prices and supply.


Assertion. I think oil and commodities traders are well aware that it will take years, if not a decade, to even get the taps turned on up there, let alone begin pumping. It will provide very little if any short-term relief to gas prices and will add practically nothing to the world demand, which we aren't going to be able to keep up with no matter what.

Quote:

It will not be a major environmental problem in any way whatsoever. The sky is falling crowd can simmer down and relax if they had any common sense, but they won't.


Funny, that's what BP said about it's Alaskan pipelines, which ended up dumping a large amount of oil all over the place. I have no confidence that the next try will be any better.

Cycloptichorn


What Cyclo said. Those are not the only problems; oil companies do not want to invest in refineries, because of the cost and the unknown future returns.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 11:34 am
I read something a few weeks ago that Beijing alone is adding 1,200 cars every day. Demand in China and India will continue to increase for the foreseeable future; it's up to car makers and others to find a) more fuel efficiency, and b) other sources of energy.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 12:09 pm
last saturday , toronto's GLOBE & MAIL (business newspaper) published several reports on FUTURE OIL .

in a nutshell : there is PLENTY of oil available in the world , but the costs of bringing on new oil are very high . they stated that the cheap oil supplies are becoming exhausted quickly .

so the question we have to ask ourselves : how much are we willing to pay for a gallon or liter delivered at the pump ?

similarly , there is plenty of gold available in canada . in europe it was said : in canada , the gold lies in the streets . indeed it does , but the cost of extracting this gold is currently too high to make it economical .

so the question that needs to be answerd first : HOW MUCH A GALLON ?
hbg
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