9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:16 pm
Are there any influential journalists here?
If yes then my request is this.
One of the German is there in USA .
He is a resident of Vatican and a religious head..( can you get an answer before he address UN GA?)
Qestion 1
Is torture christian culture?
question 2
Is nature is better than in jesus time?
question 3
What kind of barbarism is tolerable before death?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:37 pm
ican711nm wrote:
blatham wrote:
When the population of a sovereign nation have notions and wishes such as we see below, how ought we to value those wishes and notions?

Ought we to ignore them, desiring what is good for them while presuming we know better than they what is good for them?

Ought we to ignore them, but do so because we are acting in our own interests in occupying that sovereign nation (meanwhile, for the obvious PR reasons, pretending otherwise)?

Ought we, on the principle of respect for freedom and sovereignty, to act in accordance with their wishes/notions?

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/Blog_Arab_Public_Opinion_2008%201.png

Blatham, this survey you posted here failed to report the Iraq people's "notions and wishes" in response to the question: "What do you believe would happen in Iraq if the United States quickly withdrew its forces?"

I think the people of UAE, KSA, Morocco, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt are unreliable sources for determining the "notions and wishes" of the Iraq people.

You asked the following four questions:


1. When the population of a sovereign nation have notions and wishes such as we see below, how ought we to value those wishes and notions?

But the actual "notions and wishes" of the Iraq people were not reported here.

2. Ought we to ignore them, desiring what is good for them while presuming we know better than they what is good for them?

We shouldn't rely on people other than the Iraq people to decide what are the "notions and wishes" of the Iraq people.

3. Ought we to ignore them, but do so because we are acting in our own interests in occupying that sovereign nation (meanwhile, for the obvious PR reasons, pretending otherwise)?

We are not ignoring the "notions and wishes" of the Iraq people like you and these pollsters here are.

4. Ought we, on the principle of respect for freedom and sovereignty, to act in accordance with their wishes/notions?

You and these pollsters here lack sufficient evidence to determine that we are not acting in accordance with the "notions and wishes" of the Iraq people.


In the event that a valid survey of the "notions and wishes" of the Iraq people is obtained, and that survey reveals that a clear majority of the Iraq people believe "they will find a way to bridge their differences" if "the United States quickly withdrew its forces," then the United States should quickly withdraw its forces.


ican

I think you have this right.

Quote:
Most Iraqis Want U.S. Troops Out Within a Year
September 27, 2006
Say U.S. Presence Provoking More Conflict Than it is Preventing

Approval of Attacks on U.S.-led Forces Rises to 6 in 10

Published September 27, 2006

Full Report
Questionnaire/Methodology
Transcript of Brookings Saban Center Briefing

A new WPO poll of the Iraqi public finds that seven in ten Iraqis want U.S.-led forces to commit to withdraw within a year.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/250.php?lb=brme&pnt=250&nid=&id=&gclid=CIfpieHJ45ICFRMHxgodbiDM4w

What now?
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:39 pm
ican, the Bush/Walker family made a bundle in Hitler's miliary industrial complex. Made millions off Auschwitz too when a million was worth something. The US government seized several Bush/Walker businesses well into the war under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The enemy was Hitler. There's nothing hidden about any of that as I'm sure you know despite your denial. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:43 pm
ican, I'm also sure you know of Poppy Bushie's partnerships with Saddam and bin Laden also. Look at all the loot Bushie's axis has made off those partnerships. The Bushies know how to get rich. Arm madmen. They haven't changed that recipe for generations.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 06:35 am
blueflame1 wrote:
ican, I'm also sure you know of Poppy Bushie's partnerships with Saddam and bin Laden also. Look at all the loot Bushie's axis has made off those partnerships. The Bushies know how to get rich. Arm madmen. They haven't changed that recipe for generations.


Of course, you have made the claim that the Bush family armed and funded all sides in EVERY war for the last century.

You have yet to back up that claim,even when I gave you a list of wars in the 20th century for you to make your case.
You ducked that also,so why should your claim about Bush now be believed?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:26 am
Pentagon institute calls Iraq war 'a major debacle' with outcome 'in doubt'

Despite this later in the article the author says leaving will make things worse all the while talking about how much it cost in terms of military stress, readiness and money and "outcome in doubt."

From what I can see the worst that can happen is that more Iraqis will kill each other and Iran will get a stronghold in Iraq; newsflash; it's already happening even with us there costing us millions of dollars with no end in sight.

roundup of violence 4/17/2008

roundup of violence 4/18/2008

Informed Comment
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 11:20 am
revel, According to this morning's San Jose Mercury News, one-third of the soldiers returning from combat in Iraq and Afghanistan are not getting the necessary health care service they earned and deserve; exacerbated by their longer term and more frequent assignments in war zones. Bush is such a lovely man who believes "each life is precious!"
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 01:44 pm
C I
I know you thro abuzz.
my humble request is this.

You organize the people with this appeal.

"A2K Gatherings: Albu-May; Austin-SepOct
Mark your calendar for 3d San Francisco Gathering for summer of 2009"

Why not in Kabul or the safe hotel in Bagdad?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:08 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
C I
I know you thro abuzz.
my humble request is this.

You organize the people with this appeal.

"A2K Gatherings: Albu-May; Austin-SepOct
Mark your calendar for 3d San Francisco Gathering for summer of 2009"

Why not in Kabul or the safe hotel in Bagdad?


Your idea; you organize it.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:22 pm
Sorry sir.
No offence.
I had requested so many times in this forum beside other chat podiums.
None wish to enjoy a few days to see the reality..
I know what i type with my faulty English
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 09:45 pm
A political vacuum in Iraq strengthens Iraqi militia forces and Iran.
By switching enemies midstream, the US has antagonized the Shiites without winning the Sunnis
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080414&fname=hiro&sid=1
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 07:55 am
Sorry in advance for the long article; but it is better to read the whole thing rather than snippets to get the feel for the situation right now in this slum city in Iraq.

Quote:
BAGHDAD ?- Three weeks after U.S. troops were ordered into the sprawling Shiite Muslim slum of Sadr City to stop rockets from raining down on the U.S. Embassy compound in Baghdad's Green Zone, they're caught in crossfire between Shiite militiamen and the mostly Shiite Iraqi army.

American soldiers who try to move around this urban area, even in the U.S. Army's state-of-the-art Stryker armored vehicles, risk being ambushed. The soldiers in a platoon from the 25th Infantry Division quickly learned that holding a position puts them in the line of fire from both the Mahdi Army militia and the U.S.-backed Iraqi forces.

The American soldiers can't go on the offensive from the run-down two-story house they commandeered in south Sadr City, but must hunker down and wait to get shot at.

An Iraqi family evacuated the house just before the fighting started. It has rats and clogged toilets but no electricity or hot water, and no air conditioning or heating. The American soldiers have had one shower and barely a change of clothes since they got here.

Things got a lot worse last weekend, when bullets started flying at the house, targeting soldiers on the rooftop and in the rooms on the second floor.

"Where's it coming from?" the soldiers on the roof shouted to one another.

"I think it's coming from the north and west," one soldier said over the radio. "Is the Iraqi army shooting at us?"

Three times that day, the Iraqi army unit just up the road from the house was told to hold its fire because its erratic shots were hitting the house that its American allies occupied.

Three times, the Iraqis kept right on shooting.

"They told them to stop shooting," Lt. Adam Bowen, the platoon leader, told his men of the 3rd platoon, Bravo Company, 2nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team of the 25th Infantry Division, from Schofield Barracks, Hawaii.

More shots rang out.

"Well, that lasted," said Sgt. David Stine, 28, of Iola, Ill., laughing.

One floor below, in a green pastel living room decorated with a picture of a Japanese garden and a bouquet of plastic roses, Spc. Matthew Fisher of Evansville, Ill., pointed his weapon out the window, searching for snipers on the rooftops.

His buddies call him "I Spy" because of his knack for spotting things and sometimes seeing things that aren't there.

Bullets slammed into the green pastel door with a small window at the top, where Sgt. Jared Hicks, 23, of Three Rivers, Mich., stood guard behind a pile of bricks taken from the roof of the house, the muzzle of his rifle poking through the broken glass.

Just before 4 p.m., Bravo Company's commander went to the Iraqi army checkpoints up the road to demand that the Iraqis stop shooting.

Fisher looked out his window at the rooftops and saw a military-age man running on the roof across from him.

"Is that IA or JAM?" he asked, using the initials for the Iraqi army and for Jaysh al Mahdi, the Arabic name of anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr's Mahdi Army militia.

The Americans couldn't shoot until they were sure who was on the roof. Fisher looked at the sky and saw a flock of pigeons flying back and forth, following the directions of a man waving a flag. It appeared that militia groups were signaling each other.

CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE

Three weeks ago, Bowen's 3rd platoon was doing what it regarded as peacekeeping patrols, meeting local officials and tribal leaders in a relatively peaceful area north of Taji, which is about 12 miles north of Baghdad, checking out suspicious vehicles and searching for weapons caches.

Bowen and his men were sent to Baghdad after the Iraqi government launched a major offensive against Shiite militias in the southern port city of Basra. The Mahdi Army held off the government forces in Basra and neighboring provinces, then went on the offensive in Sadr's biggest stronghold, Sadr City, a slum in northeast Baghdad that's home to some 2.5 million people.

The Sadrists maintain that their Shiite rivals in the government of U.S.-backed Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki are trying to undercut their power and popularity before provincial elections planned for October. The Sadrists, with a populist appeal to poor and marginalized Shiites, are likely to dominate Iraq's southern Shiite provinces in the elections.

Whatever the origin of Iraq's latest violent convulsions, American soldiers appear to have been dragged into the fight, backing the Shiite government against the Shiite Sadrists.

"It ticks you off it all started as an Iraqi offensive and now . . . it's definitely linked to Basra," said Lt. Col. Dan Barnett, the commander of the 1st Squadron, 2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, who's heading the American efforts in Sadr City. "I don't think it's over."

Bowen's 3rd platoon soldiers liked what they were doing in Taji, but in Sadr City, residents view U.S. soldiers as occupiers and worry that wherever the Americans are, trouble will follow.

"Before we came out here, I considered us peacekeepers, but now we're considered the bad guys," said Staff Sgt. Travis Evans, 33, of Seattle.

Outside the platoon's commandeered house, residents looked curiously at the U.S. soldiers who'd suddenly become their neighbors. Children picked through the garbage out front: khaki plastic bags from the young soldiers' preserved meals and bottles filled with urine because the toilets weren't working. The laughing children were quickly shooed away.

The platoon was supposed to stay just 96 hours. Now there's no end in sight.

"I guess we didn't expect this much resistance for their cause," Evans said.

HOME, HOT MEALS AND FAMILY

Amid the shooting at the roof and the second floor, Bowen was fighting his own battle against the stopped-up toilets on the ground floor. His weapons were duct tape and a pipe. Closing off the top of the pipe with the tape, he used the makeshift plunger to unclog the Eastern-style toilets, porcelain holes in the floor.

"It's times like this I realize the duality of war," he said. "The guys upstairs are shooting at people, and we're trying to figure out how to shove poop down a hole."

Bowen went to work pushing the human waste of his soldiers.

For the men of the 3rd platoon, life in Sadr City has been predictable boredom pierced by moments of sheer terror. In the 16 days they'd been in the district, they'd had one 12-hour break and suffered through an ambush by the Mahdi Army that destroyed one of their vehicles and nearly killed some of their men.

They lie on the uncomfortable sofas in the heat and talk about home, real toilets, hot meals and girlfriends, their wives and their children.

They borrowed toy guns from a store attached to the home, which provides a livelihood for the family that lives here, aimed the toys at one another and joked about their situation.

Over the radio, the soldiers heard that Sadr's brother-in-law had been killed, and that the assassination could increase the violence. They were told not to refer to the enemy as JAM but as insurgents or special groups.

"That's retarded," Bowen said. They were caught in a political crossfire as well as a real one.

"I hate Sadr City," Bowen said. Before his stint here, he'd sympathized with Iraqis who lived in misery and detested foreign occupation. "It's always the poor and lower middle class that fight. Look at us."

Now he finds it hard to sympathize, with bullets flying at his men.

Over the radio, a soldier reworked the words to Gloria Gaynor's song "I will survive."

"There once was a man, he was petrified," he sang. "He was scared every time he heard a ricochet off his vehicle."

'TELL HIM TO STOP COMING HERE'

The next day, the shooting died down and a bald-headed Iraqi dressed in a dishdasha, a long flowing gray robe, bravely walked up to the door of the house and called out to the U.S. soldiers with the only English word he knew.

"Mister!" he said.

Through an interpreter, the man, who said his name was Abu Youssef, told the soldiers that this was his home and he wanted to return.

"Joe, tell him we aren't leaving until the area is safe," Bowen told his interpreter.

The man looked confused. He'd split his family among three homes just before the fighting began March 25.

"Will you leave tomorrow?" he asked.

"My daughters are in school; they need to study; can I get their books?" he said. The soldiers asked the interpreter, nicknamed "Joe," to go through the house and give Abu Youssef books. Joe handed them over in a plastic bag through a crack in the door, barring the man from his home.

"Please watch the cigarettes," Abu Youssef said, referring to his little store, which the Americans called Wal-Mart. "I have no money."

He returned one more time and asked to take the cigarettes to sell and support his family until he could come home.

"Tell him to stop coming here," Bowen said.

Bowen said he didn't feel bad for seizing Abu Youssef's home. "They have the power to stop this **** and no one does. The power is in the people; it's always been with the people, but no one wants to stand up."

"I'd blow up half my house to get back inside," said Cpl. David Morelock of Greeneville, Tenn.

Spc. Brodie Berkenbile, 20, of Athens, Tenn., said he'd fire a sniper rifle at people from his rooftop if a foreign army took over. But this is different.

"We're trying to help them," he said.


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/v-print/story/34185.html

The absolute arrogance of it as well as the horrible conditions (which may have existed before the invasion) in which they people live just blows me away.

Meanwhile today:

Iraq troops take control of Basra militia bastion

It may seem like good news now that we have named Sadr as the new bad guy; but he has a large following couple that with poor and hopeless people and we are not going to come out like heroes trying to help them. But rather as occupies taking sides in a political fight between Shiite and Shiites killing more people in Iraq. Or maybe not; it seems like the American people are easily led into these erroneous beliefs being spoon-fed by Peteratas and the Bush administration
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 02:59 pm
We're already seen as occupiers by not only Iraqis but most in the Arab World. We're losing much more than we're gaining in Iraq; only Bush, McCain, and Petraus thinks otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 03:15 pm
Iraq citizens are more brave to cross the street to vote according to their tastes than the American exporters of democracy.
Ask the corporate controlled WP, NYT, IHT. CSM
or any english language journals.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 04:44 pm
"We are uninvited intruders in Iraq. We invaded the country on false pretenses. It's long past time for us to admit that truth and leave. The longer we stay, the longer we tell the world that invasion and occupation are okay with us, and the longer we leave America's moral reputation around the world in tatters. When our troops leave, we will set an example for countries that have occupied, or might be tempted to occupy, other lands. And we can begin to heal from our moral bankruptcy, not to mention our impending financial one."

Ira Chernus
A sane sensible voice of an Amercan
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 08:39 am
Rice in surprise Iraq visit after 'open war' threat

Quote:
Baghdad: US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice made an unannounced visit to Iraq on Sunday, a day after Shiite cleric Moqtada Al Sadr threatened to launch an "open war" against the US-backed government.

Six people were killed in overnight clashes between Sadr's gunmen and US and Iraqi forces in the cleric's East Baghdad enclave, the sprawling Sadr City slum, police said.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 12:32 pm
We must win and succeed in Iraq, because we Americans will suffer significant losses of our freedoms, if we do not win and succeed in Iraq.

The USA wins and succeeds in Iraq when the daily rate of violent deaths in Iraq decreases below 30, remains less than 30, while we are removing our troops, and remains less than 30 for at least a year after we have completed our departure.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 01:13 pm
Ican
sorry.
There are other side of the truth
here is one

"Here's how we mock it in Iraq:

"At least since mid-2006, the US has been expanding its air capabilities in Iraq. Air bases have been enlarged and more planes and helicopters added to the arsenal. The build-up has led to a dramatic increase in air strikes within Iraq. . . . These missions have led to a five-fold increase in the amount of ordinance dropped in 2007. The tonnage of munitions dropped by aircraft increased to 222,000 pounds in the first half of 2007, compared to 61,500 during all of 2006."

This passage is from a report called "U.S. War Crimes in the 'Surge' 2007: Petraeus Manual and Tactics Flout International Law," written by Karen Parker, president of the Association of Humanitarian Lawyers, and policy analyst Bill Rau, for the organization ConsumersforPeace.org.

The authors maintain that, since the surge, Iraqi civilians have been dying at a faster rate, thanks to such tactics as the increased use of air power, a notoriously blunt and imprecise instrument for "promoting democracy" or anything else. For instance:

"In a raid in May 2007 on Sadr City, in eastern Baghdad," the report notes, "American forces called in an air strike on nine cars that were seen positioning themselves to ambush the American and Iraqi troops on the raid . . . and five people suspected of being 'terrorists' . . . were killed in the attack. But an Interior Ministry official and residents of Sadr City said the cars were parked in a line of vehicles waiting at a gas station."

The report also informs us: "Living conditions for most Iraqi citizens have worsened since the invasion and the cumulative impacts are widely evident and severe. While the absence of everyday security is often noted in the media, for millions of people the basic needs of life are not being met. Poverty rates are above 40 percent, childhood malnutrition exceeds 25 percent, and poor water supplies and sanitation have led to numerous outbreaks of diseases."

What are we doing there? What have we become? As the Lerner-Tikkun statement declares: "Our own well-being depends on the well-being of everyone else on the planet." We might as well be calling the air strikes on ourselves.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/print/13959
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 01:55 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
Ican
sorry.
There are other side of the truth
here is one

"Here's how we mock it in Iraq:

"At least since mid-2006, the US has been expanding its air capabilities in Iraq. Air bases have been enlarged and more planes and helicopters added to the arsenal. The build-up has led to a dramatic increase in air strikes within Iraq. . . . These missions have led to a five-fold increase in the amount of ordinance dropped in 2007. The tonnage of munitions dropped by aircraft increased to 222,000 pounds in the first half of 2007, compared to 61,500 during all of 2006."

This passage is from a report called "U.S. War Crimes in the 'Surge' 2007: Petraeus Manual and Tactics Flout International Law," written by Karen Parker, president of the Association of Humanitarian Lawyers, and policy analyst Bill Rau, for the organization ConsumersforPeace.org.

The authors maintain that, since the surge, Iraqi civilians have been dying at a faster rate, thanks to such tactics as the increased use of air power, a notoriously blunt and imprecise instrument for "promoting democracy" or anything else. For instance:

"In a raid in May 2007 on Sadr City, in eastern Baghdad," the report notes, "American forces called in an air strike on nine cars that were seen positioning themselves to ambush the American and Iraqi troops on the raid . . . and five people suspected of being 'terrorists' . . . were killed in the attack. But an Interior Ministry official and residents of Sadr City said the cars were parked in a line of vehicles waiting at a gas station."

The report also informs us: "Living conditions for most Iraqi citizens have worsened since the invasion and the cumulative impacts are widely evident and severe. While the absence of everyday security is often noted in the media, for millions of people the basic needs of life are not being met. Poverty rates are above 40 percent, childhood malnutrition exceeds 25 percent, and poor water supplies and sanitation have led to numerous outbreaks of diseases."

What are we doing there? What have we become? As the Lerner-Tikkun statement declares: "Our own well-being depends on the well-being of everyone else on the planet." We might as well be calling the air strikes on ourselves.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/print/13959

MALARKEY!

This report is lying propaganda that ignores the true conditions of the Iraq people under Saddam Hussein, fails to take into account the improvement of those conditions since the surge, and ignores the statistical trend in the number of Iraq non-murderers mass murdered in Iraq since our invasion of Iraq.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
A Month by Month, Daily Average of IBC's Count of Violent Deaths in Iraq, After April 30, 2007:

May = 3,755 / 31 = ……………….... 121 per day
…………….. Surge fully operational in June …………….
June = 2,386 / 30 = …………......…. 80 per day.
July = 2,077 / 31 = …………........ 67 per day.
August = 2,084 / 31 = ……...….... 67 per day.
September = 1,333 / 30 = ………... 44 per day.
October = 1,962 / 31 = ……...…... 63 per day.
November = 980 / 30 = ……………. 33 per day.
December = 1044 / 31 = ………... 34 per day.
January = 527/ 31 = ……………...…. 17 per day.
February = 926 / 29 = …………….. 32 per day.
.
___________________________________________________________________________

From Encyclopedia Britannica Books of the Year, as of December 31, 2002, Total Iraq Violent Deaths since January 1, 1979 = 1,229,210.

From IBC http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ as of February 29, 2008, Total Iraq Violent Deaths since January 1, 2003 = 90,180.
___________________________________________________________________________

Daily Average, Iraq Violent Deaths, PRE and POST January 1, 2003:

PRE = 1/1/1979 - 12/31/2002 = 1,229,210/8,766 days = 140 per day;

POST = 1/1/2003 - 02/29/2008 = 90,180/1,886 days = 48 per day;

PRE / POST = 140/48 = 2.9
.
___________________________________________________________________________

If the IBC numbers were half the true numbers then:

PRE = 1/1/1979 - 12/31/2002 = 1,229,210/8,766 days = 140 per day;

POST = 1/1/2003 - 02/29/2008 = 180.360/1,886 days = 96 per day;

PRE / POST = 140/96 = 1.5
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 02:01 pm
Ask Mysterymann who had been there.
I was there and my views are not based on political attachment.
The fact is this.
There are less Christians in Iraq now after this invassion and more terroriasts are active( both organized and disorganized terrorists)
0 Replies
 
 

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