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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2008 12:41 pm
revel wrote :

Quote:
With Germany by the time our troops were stationed there there was not any where near the violence and resistance going on like there was/is in Iraq after our invasion.


from "the end of ww II" :

Quote:
On May 2, 1945 Colonel General Alfred Jodl of the German army entered Allied headquarters. There he signed the terms of unconditional surrender. The world celebrated May 8, 1945 as V-E Day. The day when the world was free of the dangers of the Nazis.


after that date no soldiers or civilians died on either side died from enemy action .

the vast majority of germans were happy to see the end of the war ;
those that weren't made themselves scarce .

the germans had to surrender all weapons and no more shots were fired .
hbg
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2008 09:54 pm
I've gone and I've come back, but we're still in Iraq <sigh> and McCain wants to make it inevitable <OMG> Shocked
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 06:37 am
Amazing how much harm one inept conservative president can do to America.

Iraq war's cost: Loss of U.S. power, prestige and influence
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 08:41 am
Patrick Cockburn
Iraq is a country no more. Like much else, that was not the plan

The death rate in Baghdad has fallen, but it is down to ethnic cleansing

Sunday, 16 March 2008

'It reminds me of Iraq under Saddam," a militant opponent of Saddam Hussein said angrily to me last week as he watched red-capped Iraqi soldiers close down part of central Baghdad so the convoy of Nouri al-Maliki, the Iraqi Prime Minister, might briefly venture into the city.

Five years after the invasion of Iraq, the US and the Iraqi governments claim that the country is becoming a less dangerous place, but the measures taken to protect Mr Maliki told a different story. Gun-waving soldiers first cleared all traffic from the streets. Then four black armoured cars, each with three machine-gunners on the roof, raced out of the Green Zone through a heavily fortified exit, followed by sand-coloured American Humvees and more armoured cars. Finally, in the middle of the speeding convoy, we saw six identical bullet-proof vehicles with black windows, one of which must have been carrying Mr Maliki.

The precautions were not excessive, since Baghdad remains the most dangerous city in the world. The Iraqi Prime Minister was only going to the headquarters of the Dawa party, to which he belongs and which are just half a mile outside the Green Zone, but his hundreds of security guards acted as if they were entering enemy territory.

Five years of occupation have destroyed Iraq as a country. Baghdad is today a collection of hostile Sunni and Shia ghettoes divided by high concrete walls. Different districts even have different national flags. Sunni areas use the old Iraqi flag with the three stars of the Baath party, and the Shia wave a newer version, adopted by the Shia-Kurdish government. The Kurds have their own flag.

The Iraqi government tries to give the impression that normality is returning. Iraqi journalists are told not to mention the continuing violence. When a bomb exploded in Karada district near my hotel, killing 70 people, the police beat and drove away a television cameraman trying to take pictures of the devastation. Civilian casualties have fallen from 65 Iraqis killed daily from November 2006 to August 2007 to 26 daily in February. But the fall in the death rate is partly because ethnic cleansing has already done its grim work and in much of Baghdad there are no mixed areas left.

More than most wars, the war in Iraq remains little understood outside the country. Iraqis themselves often do not understand it because they have an intimate knowledge of their own community, be it Shia, Sunni or Kurdish, but little of other Iraqi communities. It should have been evident from the moment President George Bush decided to overthrow Saddam Hussein that it was going to be a very different war from the one fought by his father in 1991. That had been a conservative war waged to restore the status quo ante in Kuwait.

The war of 2003 was bound to have radical consequences. If Saddam Hussein was overthrown and elections held, then the domination of the 20 per cent Sunni minority would be replaced by the rule of the majority Shia community allied to the Kurds. In an election, Shia religious parties linked to Iran would win, as indeed they did in two elections in 2005. Many of America's troubles in Iraq have stemmed from Washington's attempt to stop Iran and anti-American Shia leaders such as Muqtada al-Sadr filling the power vacuum left by the fall of Saddam Hussein.

The US and its allies never really understood the war they won that started on 19 March 2003. Their armies had an easy passage to Baghdad because the Iraqi army did not fight. Even the so-called elite Special Republican Guard units, well-paid, well-equipped and tribally linked to Saddam, went home. Television coverage and much of the newspaper coverage of the war was highly deceptive because it gave the impression of widespread fighting when there was none. I entered Mosul and Kirkuk, two northern cities, on the day they were captured with hardly a shot fired. Burnt-out Iraqi tanks littered the roads around Baghdad, giving the impression of heavy fighting, but almost all had been abandoned by their crews before they were hit.

The war was too easy. Consciously or subconsciously, Americans came to believe it did not matter what Iraqis said or did. They were expected to behave like Germans or Japanese in 1945, though most of Iraqis did not think of themselves as having been defeated. There was later to be much bitter dispute about who was responsible for the critical error of dissolving the Iraqi army. But at the time the Americans were in a mood of exaggerated imperial arrogance and did not care what Iraqis, whether in the army or out of it, were doing. "They simply thought we were wogs," says Ahmad Chalabi, the opposition leader, brutally. "We didn't matter."

In those first months after the fall of Baghdad it was extraordinary, and at times amusing, to watch the American victors behave exactly like the British at the height of their power in 19th-century India. The ways of the Raj were reborn. A friend who had a brokerage in the Baghdad stock market told me how a 24-year-old American, whose family were donors to the Republican Party, had been put in charge of the market and had lectured the highly irritated brokers, most of whom spoke several languages and had PhDs, about the virtues of democracy.

There was a further misconception that grew up at this time. Most Iraqis were glad to be rid of Saddam Hussein. He had been a cruel and catastrophically incompetent leader, who ruined his country. All Kurds and most Shia wanted him gone. But it did not follow that Iraqis of any description wanted to be occupied by a foreign power.

Later President Bush and Tony Blair gave the impression that overthrowing the Baathist regime necessarily implied occupation, but it did not. "If we leave, there will be anarchy," friends in the occupation authority used to tell me in justification. They stayed, but anarchy came anyway.

In that first year of the occupation it was easy to tell which way the wind was blowing. Whenever there was an American soldier killed or wounded in Baghdad, I would drive there immediately. Always there were cheering crowds standing by the smoking remains of a Humvee or a dark bloodstain on the road. After one shooting of a soldier, a man told me: "I am a poor man but my family is going to celebrate what happened by cooking chicken." Yet this was the moment when President Bush and his Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, were saying that the insurgents were "remnants of the old regime" and "dead enders".

There was also misconception among Iraqis about the depth of the divisions within their own society. Sunni would accuse me of exaggerating their differences with the Shia, but when I mentioned prominent Shia leaders they would wave a hand dismissively and say: "But they are all Iranians or paid by the Iranians." Al-Qa'ida in Iraq regarded the Shia as heretics as worthy of death as the Americans. Enormous suicide bombs exploded in Shia marketplaces and religious processions, slaughtering hundreds, and the Shia began to hit back with tit-for-tat killings of Sunni by Shia militia death squads or the police.

After the Sunni guerrillas blew up the Shia shrine in Samarra on 22 February 2006, sectarian fighting turned into a full-blown civil war. Mr Bush and Mr Blair strenuously denied that this was so, but by any standard it was a civil war of extraordinary viciousness. Torture with electric drills and acid became the norm. The Shia Mehdi Army militia took over much of Baghdad and controlled three-quarters of it. Some 2.2 million people fled to Jordan and Syria, a high proportion of them Sunni.

The Sunni defeat in the battle for Baghdad in 2006 and early 2007 was the motive for many guerrillas, previously anti-American, suddenly allying themselves with American forces. They concluded they could not fight the US, al-Qa'ida, the Iraqi army and police and the Mehdi Army at the same time.

There is now an 80,000 strong Sunni militia, paid for and allied to the US but hostile to the Iraqi government. Five years after the American and British armies crossed into Iraq, the country has become a geographical expression.

'Muqtada al-Sadr and the Fall of Iraq' by Patrick Cockburn is published next month by Faber & Faber

http://www.independent.co.uk:80/opinion/commentators/patrick-cockburn-iraq-is-a-country-no-more-like-much-else-that-was-not-the-plan-796499.html
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 10:33 am
History repeats itself; Bush never learned that lesson.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 11:44 am
For those who continue to deny the war atrocities in Vietnam, this one is posted especially for you.


U.S. veterans, Japanese mark 1968 Vietnam massacre

Sun Mar 16, 8:52 AM ET



MY LAI, Vietnam (Reuters) - Japanese survivors of atomic bombs and American war veterans calling for peace joined hundreds of villagers on Sunday in prayers to mark 40 years since the worst U.S. atrocity of the Vietnam War.


On March 16, 1968, the men of Charlie Company entered the hamlet of My Lai in central Quang Ngai province and killed 504 civilians, mostly women and children.

My Lai came to symbolize in the United States all that was wrong with the Vietnam conflict, which ended in 1975 when communist North Vietnam took over U.S.-backed South Vietnam, unifying the country.

Truong Thi Le, who survived the massacre near the village's observation tower, where 102 people were killed that morning, said she stills suffers horrific memories.

"I got some rice tree to cover myself and lay down on dead people," Le said. "There were five bodies on the ground who were seriously wounded and the blood poured all around."

The massacre is marked every year by residents and the government. This year, villagers organized a Buddhist ritual ceremony for the souls of the dead before local officials laid wreaths to show their respect to the victims.

Wreaths were placed in front of the My Lai Memorial and included foreign guests such as former American helicopter door gunner, Lawrence Colburn, who together with pilot Hugh Thompson rescued some Vietnamese during the massacre.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 07:59 am
Cheney made a "surprise" visit to Iraq today. (at least that is what they are calling it; don't see how it is a surprise when it was released he was going before he got there yesterday but..) He made the usual speeches about how improved it is in Iraq around the same time there was a suicide bomb.

Quote:
Shortly after the vice president's arrival, two explosions rocked Baghdad, Agence France-Presse said. A U.S. military officer confirmed one of the explosions. One was caused by a mortar attack on the Green Zone, AFP said. Details of the second blast weren't available.


source

Wonder where his flowers and parade is?

I hope he is not making rounds in the ME to have another so called "successful war" with Iran.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 08:05 am
Missile Strikes Kill 20 In Pakistan;

I post the above here to point out the irony of fighting "AQ" in Iraq while ignoring AQ in Pakistan. Its like putting a peice of bubble gum on a leak thinking it will help anything.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 03:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
For those who continue to deny the war atrocities in Vietnam, this one is posted especially for you.


U.S. veterans, Japanese mark 1968 Vietnam massacre

Sun Mar 16, 8:52 AM ET



MY LAI, Vietnam (Reuters) - Japanese survivors of atomic bombs and American war veterans calling for peace joined hundreds of villagers on Sunday in prayers to mark 40 years since the worst U.S. atrocity of the Vietnam War.


On March 16, 1968, the men of Charlie Company entered the hamlet of My Lai in central Quang Ngai province and killed 504 civilians, mostly women and children.

My Lai came to symbolize in the United States all that was wrong with the Vietnam conflict, which ended in 1975 when communist North Vietnam took over U.S.-backed South Vietnam, unifying the country.

Truong Thi Le, who survived the massacre near the village's observation tower, where 102 people were killed that morning, said she stills suffers horrific memories.

"I got some rice tree to cover myself and lay down on dead people," Le said. "There were five bodies on the ground who were seriously wounded and the blood poured all around."

The massacre is marked every year by residents and the government. This year, villagers organized a Buddhist ritual ceremony for the souls of the dead before local officials laid wreaths to show their respect to the victims.

Wreaths were placed in front of the My Lai Memorial and included foreign guests such as former American helicopter door gunner, Lawrence Colburn, who together with pilot Hugh Thompson rescued some Vietnamese during the massacre.


Name 1 person that has denied that My Lai happened!!
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 04:40 pm
Quote:
Name 1 person that has denied that My Lai happened!!


You are the 1st to suggest someone believes that My Lai didn't happen. That is what is called creating a strawman. If i looked hard enough, I am sure that I could find someone, cause there are still people who believe the earth is flat and that homo sapien is not an animal.

BTW, I just heard the other day that in the time of Columbus, the "Earth is flat" were a minority of people. It was just a modern myth that the majority of people believed this.

And, I just had a myth revealed to me the other day that has been passed down; of which I have always believed and would have argued as valid ~ until now. Wish I could remember what it was, damn!
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 06:14 pm
BillW wrote:
Quote:
Name 1 person that has denied that My Lai happened!!


You are the 1st to suggest someone believes that My Lai didn't happen. That is what is called creating a strawman. If i looked hard enough, I am sure that I could find someone, cause there are still people who believe the earth is flat and that homo sapien is not an animal.

BTW, I just heard the other day that in the time of Columbus, the "Earth is flat" were a minority of people. It was just a modern myth that the majority of people believed this.

And, I just had a myth revealed to me the other day that has been passed down; of which I have always believed and would have argued as valid ~ until now. Wish I could remember what it was, damn!


Actually, no I'm not.

If you had actually read the first line of what ci posted, you would have seen this little gem...

Quote:
For those who continue to deny the war atrocities in Vietnam, this one is posted especially for you.


So, its a legitimate question for me to ask.

So once again, name one person on A2K that claims My Lai didnt happen.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 07:56 pm
revel wrote:
Missile Strikes Kill 20 In Pakistan;

I post the above here to point out the irony of fighting "AQ" in Iraq while ignoring AQ in Pakistan. Its like putting a peice of bubble gum on a leak thinking it will help anything.

Which is it?

Do you think we should invade Pakistan too?

Or do you think we should pull out of Iraq and not invade Pakistan.

Do you think your metaphorical "leak" needs sealing with more or less than we are trying to seal it now?
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 08:16 pm
Actually, you did create a strawman, sorry!

Wki:

Quote:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position). A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.


No where in ci's post does it say anyone refutes My Lai `

Quote:
For those who continue to deny the war atrocities in Vietnam, this one is posted especially for you.


If you refute atrocities, take note, if not ~ pass on, if you what to create a fallacy - build a strawman! So. you did!
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 09:13 pm
ican711nm wrote:
revel wrote:
Missile Strikes Kill 20 In Pakistan;

I post the above here to point out the irony of fighting "AQ" in Iraq while ignoring AQ in Pakistan. Its like putting a peice of bubble gum on a leak thinking it will help anything.

Which is it?

Do you think we should invade Pakistan too?

Or do you think we should pull out of Iraq and not invade Pakistan.

Do you think your metaphorical "leak" needs sealing with more or less than we are trying to seal it now?


AQ is all over the place and yes to a lesser extent in Iraq. However; being in Iraq did no good in quelling AQ in the surrounding areas as is evident.

If we left things might very well get worse; there might be a civil war or AQ might very well have a big stronghold in Iraq like it does in Pakistan and other areas over there. Yet what is the answer stay there forever? No matter when we leave the same can be said.

As far as invading Pakistan; I don't know but at least it is where Bin Laden's AQ is and has been since the Afghanistan war. But I am not sure invading it will do any good other than just stirring up more hatred for invading another Arab/Muslim country.

We should go back to "swatting flies" by tracking leads and dealing with things as they come up. In other words if good intel comes up that AQ in Pakistan is planning an attack on our country very soon, follow up on it and do something about it like bomb where they are at but stopping short of invading the whole country and creating another headache we would have to deal with. Try being diplomats with dissenters in Pakistan and other ME states or regions or countries for a change instead of just creating more militants by our aggressive knee jerk actions and reactions.

One thing is for sure; the conservative hawkish ways hasn't worked too well.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:08 pm
Sorry to shout but this is evil.

Quote:
Red Cross Slams "Critical" Situation In Post-Invasion Iraq
AFP | March 17, 2008 10:49 AM

The humanitarian situation in post-war Iraq five years after the US-led invasion is one of the most critical in the world, the International Committee of the Red Cross said in a report late Sunday.

Millions in the country had no access to drinking water, sanitation or healthcare. Decades of previous unrest and economic sanctions had exacerbated the situation, it stressed.

"The fact that some people in Iraq are now relatively safer must not make us forget the plight of millions," said Beatrice Megevand Roggo, the Red Cross head of operations in the Middle East and North Africa.

Although the situation had improved in some areas, Iraqis were either killed or wounded in daily attacks or violence with civilians often being targeted, said the report. Healthcare was far too expensive for the average citizen, it added.

A recent World Health Organisation and Iraqi health ministry report estimated that 151,000 people were killed between the start of the invasion on March 20, 2003 and June 2006.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:09 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/17/red-cross-slams-critical_n_91864.html
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 06:55 pm
Revel, negotiating with AQ during Clinton's presidency did not work. Also, bombing and not invading AQ during Clinton's presidency did not work.

But as you recommend, perhaps bombing, invading, and negotiating will work.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 11:57 pm
This is an important article, from a historical perspective, which will repay study:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/robert-fisk-the-only-lesson-we-ever-learn-is-that-we-never-learn-797816.html
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2008 04:45 am
ican711nm wrote:
Revel, negotiating with AQ during Clinton's presidency did not work. Also, bombing and not invading AQ during Clinton's presidency did not work.

But as you recommend, perhaps bombing, invading, and negotiating will work.


Actually it did work in keeping Saddam Hussien contained as post reports have said and we didn't have the AQ problem in Iraq before the invasion of Iraq as the report that was going to released from Pentagon said.

Also; I said stoping short of invasion.

There was a plan in place for dealing AQ at large but the Bush adminstration chose to ignore anything the previous adminstration did or planned to do as other accounts have said and referrred to his efforts as "swatting flies." Moreover they even ignored intel of AQ after they got in office as has been proven as well.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2008 06:12 pm
mctag :

thanks for posting robert fisk's article (wondering how many are willing to listen ?) .
hbg
0 Replies
 
 

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