THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

Cycloptichorn wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

At the time, our govt (including congress) thought it was.

Most Democrats did not. You seem to forget that part.

I havent forgotten that.
Its not relevant, because Congress DID vote to authorize force.
That includes democrats.
They may now claim they were "lied to or tricked" but that doesnt change their vote, now or then.


Also, the whole 'being lied to by Bush' thing has to be factored in. Because it is most certainly the case.

And since they were "lied to" and they believed him, or if they were somehow "tricked" into voting for force, what does it say about them?
After all, you and others keep saying how stupid Bush is, yet he convinced the dems.

Are you willing to say that the dems in congress are even dumber then Bush?
After all, they believed him.
Cycloptichorn

mysteryman wrote:

At the time, our govt (including congress) thought it was.

Most Democrats did not. You seem to forget that part.

I havent forgotten that.
Its not relevant, because Congress DID vote to authorize force.
That includes democrats.
They may now claim they were "lied to or tricked" but that doesnt change their vote, now or then.


Also, the whole 'being lied to by Bush' thing has to be factored in. Because it is most certainly the case.

And since they were "lied to" and they believed him, or if they were somehow "tricked" into voting for force, what does it say about them?
After all, you and others keep saying how stupid Bush is, yet he convinced the dems.

Are you willing to say that the dems in congress are even dumber then Bush?
After all, they believed him.

Cycloptichorn

www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002 (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq

Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq's war of aggression against and illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the national security of the United States and enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq;

Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq[/u];

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens[/u];

Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that it supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization of Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1),' that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and `constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region,' and that Congress, `supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688';

Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush committed the United States to `work with the United Nations Security Council to meet our common challenge' posed by Iraq and to `work for the necessary resolutions,' while also making clear that `the Security Council resolutions will be enforced, and the just demands of peace and security will be met, or action will be unavoidable';

Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and,

Whereas it is in the national security interests of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region:

Now therefore be it, Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, Authorization for use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002. 50 USC 1541 note.

Its the outright false rosey anylasis and always blaming every violence committed in Iraq on AQ when that can't possibly be the case that has always gotten on my nerves with those who keep trying to defend this unjustified, not needed and mess of a war.
...

revel wrote:

Its the outright false rosey anylasis and always blaming every violence committed in Iraq on AQ when that can't possibly be the case that has always gotten on my nerves with those who keep trying to defend this unjustified, not needed and mess of a war.
...

Each and every suicidal murder of one or more non-murderers in Iraq is a murder by AQ.

Twelve subsequently proven TRUE reasons for invading Iraq were given October 16, 2002 by Congress. These 12 TRUE reasons are more than sufficient to justify the USA invasion of Iraq.

ican711nm wrote:

revel wrote:

Its the outright false rosey anylasis and always blaming every violence committed in Iraq on AQ when that can't possibly be the case that has always gotten on my nerves with those who keep trying to defend this unjustified, not needed and mess of a war.
...

Each and every suicidal murder of one or more non-murderers in Iraq is a murder by AQ.

Twelve subsequently proven TRUE reasons for invading Iraq were given October 16, 2002 by Congress. These 12 TRUE reasons are more than sufficient to justify the USA invasion of Iraq.

This is not verifiably true. There are plenty of Sunni and Shi'ite groups who utilitze these tactics, not just AQ.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

revel wrote:

Its the outright false rosey anylasis and always blaming every violence committed in Iraq on AQ when that can't possibly be the case that has always gotten on my nerves with those who keep trying to defend this unjustified, not needed and mess of a war.
...

Each and every suicidal murder of one or more non-murderers in Iraq is a murder by AQ.

Twelve subsequently proven TRUE reasons for invading Iraq were given October 16, 2002 by Congress. These 12 TRUE reasons are more than sufficient to justify the USA invasion of Iraq.

This is not verifiably true. There are plenty of Sunni and Shi'ite groups who utilitze these tactics, not just AQ.

Cycloptichorn

Is it verifiably false?

We know that many of AQ's members are from Sunni or Shi'ite groups.

"Iraq: America's biggest foreign policy mistake, ever." -Madeleine Albright on the Jon Stewart Show.

What's taken people so long to realise that?

In 2005, a Nobel prize-winning economist began the painstaking process of calculating the true cost of the Iraq war. In his new book, he reveals how short-sighted budget decisions, cover-ups and a war fought in bad faith will affect us all for decades to come. Aida Edemariam meets Joseph Stiglitz

Leahy is part of the problem; they keep approving money for this war without oversight. audits, and those no-bid contracts to Halliburton.

They're all a bunch of incompetents running our country into the ground.

cicerone imposter wrote:

Leahy is part of the problem; they keep approving money for this war without oversight. audits, and those no-bid contracts to Halliburton.

They're all a bunch of incompetents running our country into the ground.

Is this another lie on your part, or are you telling the truth for a change?

From the same article, the figures:

$16bn
The amount the US spends on the monthly running costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - on top of regular defence spending

$138
The amount paid by every US household every month towards the current operating costs of the war

$19.3bn
The amount Halliburton has received in single-source contracts for work in Iraq

$25bn
The annual cost to the US of the rising price of oil, itself a consequence of the war

$3 trillion
A conservative estimate of the true cost - to America alone - of Bush's Iraq adventure. The rest of the world, including Britain, will shoulder about the same amount again

$5bn
Cost of 10 days' fighting in Iraq

$1 trillion
The interest America will have paid by 2017 on the money borrowed to finance the war

3%
The average drop in income of 13 African countries - a direct result of the rise in oil prices. This drop has more than offset the recent increase in foreign aid to Africa.