THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

Over Here: Iraq the Place vs. Iraq the Abstraction
George Packer

Over Here: Iraq the Place vs. Iraq the Abstraction
George Packer
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/winter-2008/full-iraq.html
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A falsely justified and poorly waged war hardly deserves the excuse of good intentions. Iraq was a folly and a failure of the kind that happens once every few generations and leaves consequences for generations to come. The war swept up millions of lives, changing them in ways that were impossible for anyone to predict. In the summer of 2003, Iraq was volatile and fluid, and no one who knew anything knew what would come next. Some Iraqis spoke of a better future coming in six months or a year. Three years later, the better future had receded far into the distance: hunkered down in Baghdad or exiled in Damascus, Iraqis spoke of fifteen years.

By then the war was not about nothing. No war ever is. I don't know where Haithem and Muna and the others are today?-some of them might well be among the Iraqis I know to be dead?-but for them, the war had a meaning. It meant a chance to live a decent life, something that had never been remotely possible and remains a dream even today. The war began as folly; it became a tragedy when the hopes and lives of Iraqis and Americans began to be expended by the thousands.

"I can never blame the Americans alone," an Iraqi refugee named Firas told me in early 2007. "It's the Iraqis who destroyed their country, with the help of the Americans, under the American eye." To gain this wisdom, Firas had to lose almost everything. What would it take for Americans to understand what Firas already does? A recognition that Iraq was everyone's loss, whichever side you were on.

Rather than run away, we must now persist until Iraqi and American freedom is secured

Baghdad

Gunmen opened fire targeting Lieutenant General Mohammed Basim Abdul Redha and Colonel Farqad Salman Alwan, both work in the directorate in the general inspector of the defense ministry. The incident took place at 9:00 am in al Yarmook neighborhood west Baghdad.

A civilian was killed and two others were injured when gunmen opened fire randomly targeting a bus in al Nosoor square west Baghdad around 3:00 pm.

A joint force of the Iraqi army and the US army found a grave yard includes five bodies of men in Boob al Sham area north of Baghdad

Police found five bodies in Baghdad today. Three bodies were found in Karkh, the western side of Baghdad in the following neighborhoods (2 bodies in Mansour and 1 body in Washash). The two others bodies were found Ma'amil and Husseiniyah neighborhoods in Rusafa, the eastern side of Baghdad.

Salahuddin

23 people were killed and 45 others wounded when a suicide car bomb targeted a shopping center in al Mazari'a village in Yathrib district south of Tikrit city around 4:30 pm. Many shops were damaged.

Gunmen killed two civilians near Tikrit- Baghdad Street north of Baghdad today afternoon.

Diyala

Two policemen were killed and 17 people (10 policemen and 7 civilians) were injured when ten mortar shells hit Baladrooz police station in Baladrooz town east of Baquba city today morning.

Kirkuk

The head of Abbasi Sahwa Majeed Ahmed Khalaf was injured with two of his followers when a suicide bomber detonated his car near their car on Abbasi- Hawija Street southwest Kirkuk city around 9:30 am. Police said that the suicide bomber was driving a pick up car carrying a cow in the back of the car and got close to Khalaf's car then detonated his car.

Anbar

3 people were killed (a police officer and two members of Sahwa) and seven civilians were injured when a suicide car bomb targeted a check point in Albo Efan area (an area where Albo Essa tribe and the sheikhs of Sahwa live) west of Baghdad around 5:00 pm.

Nineveh

A source in the Iraqi army said that gunmen from Qaida killed a family(parents and their four children) in Sinjar town west of Mosul city today morning. After the incident, joint troops (Sahwa and USA troops supported by the tribes) raided the strongholds of the insurgents and clashes with them. Ten insurgents were killed and three others were arrested. Six Sahwa members were killed two women were injured during the clashes.

Four civilians were injured in a suicide car bomb that targeted a check point of the Iraqi army in al Hadba'a neighborhood downtown Mosul city north of Baghdad today afternoon.

Four Iraqi soldiers were killed and seven civilians were killed in suicide car bomb that targeted a check point of the Iraq army in al Sahaji area west of Mosul city today afternoon.

A fuel station owner was killed and three other civilians were injured when a gunman opened fire in Haj Ali village in Makhmoor town southeast of Mosul city.

BAGHDAD ?- Members of U.S.-allied citizen brigades, which are credited with helping to tamp down violence in many parts of Iraq, went on strike Friday in Diyala province, alleging that the provincial police chief there is running a death squad.

A leader of the group said that brigade members, most of them Sunni Muslims, wouldn't resume working with U.S. and Iraqi government forces until the Shiite police chief resigns or is indicted.

A curfew was imposed, and police throughout the province ended their patrols early to avoid clashes with the U.S.-funded concerned local citizens, or "popular committees" as they're known in Diyala, who staged demonstrations against the police chief. No casualties were reported.

The strike highlights the tenuous relationship between U.S.-allied Sunni-dominated citizen militias and the Shiite-dominated, U.S.-backed Iraqi security forces.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A suicide car bomb killed 33 people in Iraq on Sunday, a security official said, hours before U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates arrived in Baghdad to assess recent security gains and discuss troop levels.

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Rather than run away, we must now persist until Iraqi and American freedom is secured.

We are not securing Iraqi freedom and we were never were securing American freedom with this war because our freedom was never at risk from Iraq to start with.

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Yes, I understand I should not bother you with the facts, because your mind is made up!

Today's Must Read
By Paul Kiel - February 11, 2008, 9:47AM
Back in the summer of 2005, just as journalists were toiling to produce the first books on what had gone so horribly wrong in Iraq, the Army was handed a thorough study by the RAND Corporation, its federally-financed research arm.

And it came, as one might expect, to some sharp conclusions. It faulted the President and Condoleezza Rice, Don Rumsfeld's Pentagon, Colin Powell's State Department, and Gen. Tommy Franks' Central Command for a variety of shortcomings, all essentially for their role in not adequately preparing for securing postwar Iraq. The report provided a strategy for how the Army and the government in general might avoid a similar plight the next time around (the short version: try preparing for the aftermath).

Unclassified versions of RAND reports are regularly made public, and the researchers had hoped a version of this report would be too. But, as The New York Times reports this morning, the Army wasn't happy with the product. So they buried it.

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Yes, I understand I should not bother you with the facts, because your mind is made up!

Your facts are ... We can't fix Iraq and we are in no more danger from Iraq than we are from any other place over there ... When someone ask you for some kind of proof you just trot out portions of the 9/11 report; or the Iraq authorization from congress or quotes from Bin Laden or other AQ members or other unknown militant Muslims or you will leave your little numbers posts which don't mean a thing because it is your own calculated numbers ... you just keep saying the same thing ... no evidence other than the ones I described earlier in this post.

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it will always be about like it is now or maybe get worse and we cannot afford to stay there forever and staying there does not fix it anyway but only contains it---somewhat. There are other areas in the world we need to focus on rather than be so bogged down in Iraq for another twenty or hundred year no matter if Iraq is a success or not. It will not affect our freedom if we leave Iraq before there is total success or as you say Iraq is secured.

We agree that there other areas on earth besides Iraq and Afghanistan we should focus on. I think the primary such areas are those where AQ is training and mass murdering non-murderers. Pakistan is but one example. But what should be the nature of our focus now? What should be our actions now? Assuming we cannot simultaneously do what you recommend in all the areas where AQ is developing and mass murdering, what should we do now?

We know from past experience that when we invade one area where AQ is developing and mass murdering, many of them flee to another area. For example many of the AQ in Afghanistan when we invaded it, fled to both Iraq and Pakistan. Surely if we were to leave Iraq and invade Pakistan, AQ in Pakistan would flee back to Iraq.

I believe there are better tactics for us to employ for exterminating AQ everywhere than the ones we are currently employing. But one thing we ought not do is abandon either Iraq or Afghanistan until we exterminate AQ in those places.

Because like I said repeatedly; our freedom was never in danger from Iraq no more than any other place where there is an AQ presence ...

We disagree about that as you already know. However, let's assume for the sake of argument our freedom is equally in danger no matter what AQ's location.

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We will not win this fight with violence in the long run but with political diplomacy for moderate Muslims. We have just made our problem worse instead of better by pissing off moderate Muslims with our macho attitude towards the AQ war with this "you are either for us or against us" attitude. It divides rather than brings any reconciliation.
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I do not understand why you think "political diplomacy for moderate Muslims" will achieve our goal of stopping AQ from continuing its mass murder of moderate Muslims and ultimately resuming its mass murder of Americans.

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My point is that I keep saying things like this; you keep saying what you say and round and round it goes. The only difference is that I actually bring links that are current; usually from that day about either the political situation or the violence in Iraq or some new reports about Iraq from the US or new evidence. Sure it supports my point of view. That is the point of bringing; to support what I say.

I have zero objection to your posting links that support your point of view. I reject most of them, however, because most of them are either merely the unsupported opinions of others, or they are status reports limited to the bad news in Iraq. Whereas, the evidence I have repeatedly posted ad nauseam, are the actual declarations of AQ leadership, or are the supported opinions[/U of others including, but not limited to, government commissions.[/color]

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Bring links about how Sunni groups turned against the AQI and started their own group called the awakening counsel for example. This is a positive thing you could have brought to support your view; but you never have. (I have)

Yes, you have and I have not. I on the other hand have supplied what I consider to be the most important information. I have supplied the link to the IBC objectors to the Iraq war, who estimate mass murders in Iraq war. I apply this data to compute and post the Iraq mass murder trend since 01/01/2003. It has definitely been decreasing since the surge became fully operational in June 2007.
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I do not understand why you think "political diplomacy for moderate Muslims" will achieve our goal of stopping AQ from continuing its mass murder of moderate Muslims and ultimately resuming its mass murder of Americans.

I have zero objection to your posting links that support your point of view. I reject most of them, however, because most of them are either merely the unsupported opinions of others, or they are status reports limited to the bad news in Iraq. Whereas, the evidence I have repeatedly posted ad nauseam, are the actual declarations of AQ leadership, or are the supported opinions[/U of others including, but not limited to, government commissions. [/quote]

This is not true; I usually bring links to this thread about events which happen in Iraq or current reports. Sometimes I might bring a liberal source with opinions but in the article there is always links to facts or I don't bother to bring it knowing it can justifiably be dismissed as an empty biased source of opinions otherwise.

Is violence on the rise again in Iraq?
Steve Lannen | McClatchy Newspapers
last updated: February 12, 2008 10:43:23 AM

BAGHDAD ?- Violence is increasing in Iraq, raising questions about whether the security improvements credited to the increase in U.S. troops may be short-lived.

Car bombs in Baghdad on Monday killed at least 11 people and injured a prominent leader of one of the country's most influential American-allied tribal militias.

The Ministry of Electricity announced that power to much of the nation, already anemic, is likely to lag in coming days because insurgents had blown up transmission facilities and natural gas pipelines that fuel generators.

CBS News confirmed that two of its journalists are missing in Basra, in Iraq's south.

A leading parliament member warned that budget disputes have paralyzed the legislature.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, finishing a two-day visit to Baghdad, said that he was likely to advocate a pause in troop withdrawals to evaluate the situation after the last of the additional troops sent here under President Bush's so-called surge strategy had left later this year.

Gates made the remark after meeting for two hours with Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq. Petraeus already has indicated that he wants to slow troop withdrawals to consolidate the past year's security gains.

Gates previously has said that how fast troops are redeployed from Iraq will depend on conditions there. But his statement prompted criticism from Democratic lawmakers. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., House Armed Services Committee Chairman Ike Skelton, D-Mo., and presidential contender Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., each issued statements that said delaying further withdrawals would leave the American military overstretched.

"While the administration puts our drawdown on permanent pause," Obama said, al Qaida leader Osama "bin Laden is on the loose, Afghanistan is sliding toward chaos and we're spending billions of dollars a week�in Baghdad instead of helping Americans who are struggling here at home."

Other leading presidential contenders made no comment on Gates' remarks. Republican front-runner John McCain has been a leading advocate of the surge.

After months of declining violence, February is certain to be the third straight month to see increases in the numbers of Baghdad residents killed in car bombings and suicide attacks.

According to statistics kept by McClatchy, the low point in such killings came in November, when 76 people died. Thanks to a pair of pet market bombings that killed 99 people Feb. 1, February's tally already is 131.

Petraeus' counsel on troop withdrawals after some surge troops have departed will play a big role in determining what Gates recommends to the president, Pentagon officials said.

Monday marked the second day in a row of suicide attacks. Blasts in Salah ad Din, Anbar and Ninevah provinces killed at least 30 people Sunday.

Monday, a suicide car bomber drove his car into the Baghdad residence of a prominent leader of the Anbar Salvation Council, a U.S.-allied militia that's credited with helping to drive al Qaida in Iraq from that province. Five minutes later, another car bomb exploded at a busy intersection a short distance away.

The blasts killed at least 11 people and injured 30.

Later, Sheik Ali Hathem al Suleiman al Duleimy, who was injured in the attack, went on Iraqi TV and declared war against his enemies. He said that his militia, many of whose members are paid by the United States, no longer would allow the U.S. or Iraqi government to interfere with its work.

His comments came as similar U.S.-allied groups in nearby Diyala province continued to refuse to work with American or Iraqi government forces until the provincial police chief is removed. On Monday, hundreds protested in Diyala to demand the chief's removal.

In an e-mailed statement, the top U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, Rear Adm. Gregory Smith, acknowledged the "frustration on the part of some awakening councils," but said that most remained on the job and committed to defending their neighborhoods.

Iraqi government spokesmen declined comment or couldn't be reached.

In another sign that benefits from the surge could be waning, the Ministry of Electricity said that a car bomb at a power station near Mosul in Ninevah province and attacks on natural gas lines connected to four power stations north of Baghdad had damaged the national power network. While repairs have been started, Iraqis can expect even less electricity in coming days, the ministry said in a statement.

CBS News said little about the two missing journalists in Basra, refusing to identify them or to say what had happened.

Meanwhile, parliament Speaker Mahmoud al Mishhadani said that the legislature was paralyzed over budget disputes involving the Kurdish region and warned that other key pieces of legislation, such as an amnesty for prisoners and more power for provincial governments, could fail in the bickering.

(Lannen reports for the Lexington (Ky.) Herald-Leader. McClatchy special correspondent Laith Hammoudi contributed to this report.)



McClatchy Newspapers 2008

Quote:

I do not understand why you think "political diplomacy for moderate Muslims" will achieve our goal of stopping AQ from continuing its mass murder of moderate Muslims and ultimately resuming its mass murder of Americans.

Because if we employ diplomatic tactics for moderate muslims they are less likely to turn to extremist militant muslims for answers-this seems obvious to me.

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