THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

revel wrote:

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I do not understand why you think "political diplomacy for moderate Muslims" will achieve our goal of stopping AQ from continuing its mass murder of moderate Muslims and ultimately resuming its mass murder of Americans.

Because if we employ diplomatic tactics for moderate muslims they are less likely to turn to extremist militant muslims for answers-this seems obvious to me.

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Moderate Muslims are not mass murdering moderate Muslims. So our problem with them is succeeding via diplomatic negotiations in helping them establish an Iraq government capable of securing them without our help against those who are not moderate Muslims, and who are mass murderers of moderate Muslims. Those diplomatic negotiations have been on going for some considerable time, but are proceeding slowly at best.

It is plausible that the moderate Muslims will finally rescue themselves only after we leave, because as long as we remain in Iraq, moderate Muslims will not take adequate responsibility for their own protection. However, I wish I had as much confidence in that theory as you seem to have.

A key argument of the Bush Administration against withdrawal is that doing so would hand Al-Qaeda a victory and perhaps bring Iraq, or parts of it, under the control of Al-Qaeda, where terrorist training camps could flourish and plot all manner of international terrorist conspiracy. However, we are observing in Iraq today the likely fate of Al-Qaeda in Iraq. Sunni tribes in Anbar and Sunni insurgent groups in some Baghdad neighborhoods have turned against Al-Qaeda in Iraq, not only because of Al-Qaeda's tactics in Iraq but also to ensure that Iraqi nationals determine the strategy and political outcomes of their insurgency. Iraq's Sunnis do not want to be dominated by outside Arab fighters, either now or after a US pullout. It is almost certain that those Sunnis who establish their own Sunni region in the aftermath of a US pullout will expel remaining foreign fighters from Iraq.

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Before the Iraq war; Sunnis were not bombing and using other AQ tactics to drive a wedge between the Shiite led government and the US in order to drive to the US out of Iraq. After the invasion they began to use those tactics and not only that but those trained in AQ tactics have gone on to other countries. These were not extremist Muslims before the Iraq invasion but just Sunnis from Saddam Hussein regime who turned into insurgents against the US invasion and power of the Shiites employing AQ tactics. Thus all violence were termed AQ even though most of them never were AQ before the invasion and were not foreign AQ in any event except in small numbers.

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Before the Iraq war, Sunnis operating under Saddam's government were mass murdering Shiites, dissenting Sunnis, and others.

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Before the Iraq war, Sunnis operating under Saddam's government were mass murdering Shiites, dissenting Sunnis, and others.

They were not blowing people up with bombs. Saddam Hussien had a horrible regime and did gas his own people and otherwise did horrible violent things plus oppressed his people. We went to war when he invaded Kawaiit but did nothing (Bush the first was president) when he did the truly horrible things after the Gulf war. However at the time of the invasion; he was contained. Those Sunni were not AQ and didn't employ AQ tactics until after the invasion.

What we do now is simply withdraw and handle Iraq like we do all other problems in the world. You disagree; fine; we agree to disagree.

Baghdad: The 26-year-old Sunni man sat in a Baghdad hotel, his business suit covering marks where he said a power drill penetrated his thigh and acid dissolved his calf.

The former Iraqi SWAT commander is in Baghdad to meet Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki and other officials, planning to provide an account of torture he said he endured at the direction of Major General Ganim Quraishi, the Shiite police chief of Diyala province.

In an interview, Hesham Mahdi Salih said he was abused as part of the chief's campaign against Sunni officials, and despite US military officers questioning some of his story, the captain's account has become a rallying cry for Sunni protests over the past week in one of Iraq's most turbulent regions.

We simply deal with things everywhere else on a case by case basis. If there is real immediate threat or if had just been attacked then it makes sense to attack another country. We attacked Afghanistan for a justified reason. They refused to give up Bin Laden who was behind the attack of our country on 9/11. (See how it is easy to give an explanation when there actually is an explanation?)

Saddam Hussein chose to ignore our multiple requests to extradite Zarqawi, the AQ leader in Iraq that our troops killed after our invasion of Iraq. I think that constituted adequate justification for our invasion of Iraq.

We are fixing to put on trial others who were behind the attack on our country. We use homeland security for real threats and we use intelligence and (legal warranted on people in our country) spying devices to monitor threats in those areas we need to. We consult with our friendly allies (those we can get back after this administration has pissed them all off) to keep up with terrorist threats and follow leads by following money and other ways.)We also try to use more diplomacy when we can and negotiate more with our enemies when we can and simply deal with it when we can't and our nation is actually at immediate risk.

We actually did negotiate with the Afghanistan and Iraq governments that were allowing AQ sanctuary. We tried that in both the Clinton and Bush administrations. When during the Bush administration it became obvious that negotiations were not going to work with either the Taliban in Afghanistan or the Baathists in Iraq, we invaded.

The standard rebuttal to my claim is that the Saddam Baathists were prohibited by the USA's no-fly zone from driving/marching into northeastern Iraq to grab Zarqawi. That is, of course, ridiculous. But, I think that if the Saddam gang had requested to fly into northeast Iraq to grab Zarqawi, the USA would have happily granted him an exception to enter that part of the no-fly zone to do that. However, I cannot prove that true anymore than you can prove that false.

I know you disagree; that is fine like I said; we agree to disagree of course you are free to say why. (Not that you need my permission)

Ican; we have already done the Zarqawi thing numerous times. Links have been left to prove that there was no linkage between Zarqawi and Saddam Hussien and at one point he even wanted to kill him. Links have been left to prove where Bush had the opportunity to deal with Zarqawi before the invasion but chose not to because he wanted the invasion to get rid of Saddam Hussien. There was no reason to invade Iraq and take out Saddam Hussien because of Zarqawi.

revel wrote:

Ican; we have already done the Zarqawi thing numerous times. Links have been left to prove that there was no linkage between Zarqawi and Saddam Hussien and at one point he even wanted to kill him. Links have been left to prove where Bush had the opportunity to deal with Zarqawi before the invasion but chose not to because he wanted the invasion to get rid of Saddam Hussien. There was no reason to invade Iraq and take out Saddam Hussien because of Zarqawi.

I agree that there was no cooperative relationship between Zarqawi and Saddam Huss[ei]n."

I agree that probably Bush could have captured Zarqawi without removing Saddam.

I disagree that AQ could have been prevented from re-entering Iraq after we drove AQ out, if we had not removed Saddam.

I agree Bush has failed to keep AQ out of Iraq even though Saddam was removed.

I disagree that Bush made a mistake removing Saddam.

I agree that Bush made many mistakes in his attempts to aid the Iraqis set up an adequate replacement government.

Baghdad: A senior aide to Iraq's top Shiite cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani said the government should "be careful" as it negotiates a long term security deal with Americans.

The agreement is aimed at replacing the current UN mandate for foreign troops in Iraq.

"The agreement...should secure the interests of the Iraqi people and not the opposite because the coming generations will be committed to it," said Abdul Mahdi Al Karbalaie.

Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari has said the first round of talks on the agreement would begin on February 27, although the US Embassy in Baghdad said no date has been set.

BAGHDAD -- Iraq's prime minister declared "victory in Baghdad" yesterday, claiming U.S. and Iraqi troops have chased al-Qaida in Iraq out of the capital in the year since a security crackdown began, and vowing to pursue insurgents who have fled northward.

Underscoring the rising violence in northern Iraq, a double suicide bombing targeted Shiite worshippers as they left weekly prayer services in the city of Tal Afar, killing at least four people and wounding 17. Police said guards at the Juwad mosque prevented a worse casualty toll by opening fire on the two attackers before they could reach the bulk of worshippers emerging from the building.

In remarks broadcast on state television, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki thanked the U.S. military and its allies for "standing with us in defeating terrorism."

CHASING OUTLAWS

"Today our forces are locked in battle against outlaws in Nineveh and we are chasing them," he added, referring to the northwestern province where Iraqi officials say al-Qaida in Iraq has regrouped. Tal Afar is in Nineveh province.

The Shiite leader has promised a "decisive battle" in that region, although U.S. commanders have said it will be more a protracted fight.

The U.S. military launched its so-called surge to clear Baghdad and surrounding areas on Feb. 14, 2007, with the 82nd Airborne Division as the vanguard of an American troop buildup that climbed to 30,000 extra U.S. soldiers by the summer. After a sharp initial spike in military and civilian casualties, violence has declined sharply.

ican711nm wrote:

revel wrote:

Ican; we have already done the Zarqawi thing numerous times. Links have been left to prove that there was no linkage between Zarqawi and Saddam Hussien and at one point he even wanted to kill him. Links have been left to prove where Bush had the opportunity to deal with Zarqawi before the invasion but chose not to because he wanted the invasion to get rid of Saddam Hussien. There was no reason to invade Iraq and take out Saddam Hussien because of Zarqawi.

I agree that there was no cooperative relationship between Zarqawi and Saddam Huss[ei]n."

I agree that probably Bush could have captured Zarqawi without removing Saddam.

I disagree that AQ could have been prevented from re-entering Iraq after we drove AQ out, if we had not removed Saddam.

I agree Bush has failed to keep AQ out of Iraq even though Saddam was removed.

I disagree that Bush made a mistake removing Saddam.

I agree that Bush made many mistakes in his attempts to aid the Iraqis set up an adequate replacement government.

Whatever Ican. I am weary of this repeat and repeat game and simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I disagree that AQ could have been prevented from re-entering Iraq after we drove AQ out, if we had not removed Saddam.

I disagree that Bush made a mistake removing Saddam.

Reuters) - Following are security developments in Iraq at 1643 GMT (11:43 a.m.) on Sunday.

BAGHDAD - The U.S. military said it had a killed an armed suspect in an assault on a group suspected of financing Shi'ite militias.

SHARQAT - The U.S. military said it had killed one person and detained 23 others on Saturday in operations to disrupt al Qaeda in northern Iraq, 300 km (190 miles) north of Baghdad.

SAMARRA - U.S. forces killed two people on Saturday in operations targeting al Qaeda in a village northeast of Samarra, some 100 km (62 miles) north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said.

DIYALA PROVINCE - Two U.S. soldiers were killed and another wounded after coming under attack from small arms fire in Diyala Province, northeast of Baghdad, the U.S. military said.

MOSUL - A parked car bomb killed three people including a policeman and wounded two civilians when it targeted a police patrol in northern Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - A female suicide bomber killed at least three people and wounded eight others in the Karrada district of central Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - The Iraqi army killed one gunman and arrested 55 others in the last 24 hours in different areas across Iraq, the Defense Ministry said.

BAGHDAD - Two bodies were found in separate parts of Baghdad on Saturday, police said.

BAIJI - A roadside bomb killed three people on Saturday in a market in central Baiji, 180 km (112 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

BAIJI - A roadside bomb killed an off-duty policeman in Baiji, on Saturday, police said.

Parachinar: Pakistan's Parachinar town was placed under a curfew on Sunday, a day after a suicide bombing killed at least 39 people.

Health officials fear the death toll may rise after many of the more than 100 wounded in the attack remain in critical condition.

The blast on Saturday occurred as supporters of a candidate backed by assassinated prime minister Benazir Bhutto's party were going to the his office after a rally.

The head of the suspected suicide bomber has been found on the blast site in the Kurram region on the Afghan border, an official said.

"We have imposed a curfew to avert any riots. If the situation remains calm then we may relax it," said Zaheer Ul Islam, the district's top government administrator.

Islam blamed "anti-state elements" for the blast and said that authorities had not yet made a decision on whether to go ahead with voting on Monday.

Arghandab: Dozens of people were killed by an explosion near Kandahar in southern Afganistan on Sunday, officials said.

The explosion took place in an area where around 300 people had gathered to watch dogs fight, witnesses said. Several Afghan militia leaders were among the spectators.

Kandahar Governor Asadullah Khalid said 80 had been killed, while a Health Ministry spokesman said 67 had been killed and 90 wounded, though he said the toll could rise.

The governor blamed the blast on a suicide bomber.

"Sixty of the martyrs were brought to hospitals and 20 more dead bodies were taken from the site. We think 80 people were killed in this suicide attack," Khalid said.

We are making so much progress in Iraq, it justifies us staying for another 100 years.

Two of those article were about suicide bombs in pakistan and Afghanistan; illustrating the fruitlessness of staying in one country fighting so called AQ while in other countries AQ is growing and getting stronger. We will not win this fight with Muslim extremist with only the military no matter how long we stay in Iraq or how many bombs we drop. For every Muslim/extremist we kill more just pop up in their place. We need to get the heart of the problems that ordinary Muslims have which causes them to turn to the extremist or else the US is going to be fighting Muslims forever. They are not going to just throw up their hands and crawl on their knees in humbleness even if we keep killing them for a hundred years. They need to be able to save face and have a reason to stop fighting.