THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not part of the al-Qaeda confederation.

USA's no-fly zone over northeastern Iraq protected al-Qaeda in Iraq.

One of my favorite books about the war, George Packer's widely acclaimed The Assassins' Gate, also addresses the question of just why the United States invaded Iraq . Packer describes a telling exchange with Richard Haass, the State Department's director of policy planning at the time, who said he expects to go to his grave not knowing the reason. In the end, Packer writes, Haass seemed to believe it was just something some people wanted to do. *

Quote:

I'll be back later!

We wait with breathless anticipation; after all what in the world would we have to discuss in this thread without you?

You are a troll and we are enablers.



He may not have the malicious intent of a true troll but in the end he has the same effect on this thread and we all just keep egging him on by responding to his ridiculous repetitive for the week(s) posts.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tonnya Long
To: ...
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:01 AM

Where Am I

A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered altitude
and spotted a man on a sailboat below.

She shouted to him, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I
would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The man consulted his sextant and replied, "You're in a hot air balloon
approximately 30 feet above above sea level. You are 31 degrees, 14.97
minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude."

She rolled her eyes and said, "You must be a Republican."

"I am," replied the man. "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the woman in the balloon, "everything you told me is
technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information,
and I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help to me."

The man smiled and responded, "You must be a Democrat."

"I am," replied the balloonist. "But how did yo u know?"

"Well," said the man, "You don't know where you are or where you're going. You've risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You've made a promise that you have no idea how to keep, and now you expect ME to solve your problem. You're in EXACTLY the same position you were in before we met, but somehow, now, it's MY fault."

ican wrote:

Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not part of the al-Qaeda confederation.

That's correct. Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were not friends and did not trust one another. Saddam, a secular Muslim ruler, was something Osama, a religious fanatic, detested.

It is irrelevant whether or not Saddam Hussein was or was not friends with Osama, or whether or not Saddam Hussein did or did not detest Osama. What is relevant is whether or not a member of the al-Qaeda confederation was based in northeastern Iraq more than a year prior to the USA invasion of Iraq.

An al-Qaeda member of the al-Qaeda confederation was based in northeastern Iraq more than a year prior to the USA invasion of Iraq, whether or not Saddam approved or disapproved.

ican wrote:

USA's no-fly zone over northeastern Iraq protected al-Qaeda in Iraq.

George Bush protected the AQ camp in Kurd territory. That camp was to weak and small to warrant an attack on Iraq.

That is absurd! The no-fly zone over the al-Qaeda camp in northeastern Iraq was not a no-drive zone or no-march zone for Saddam or anyone else. It was strictly a no-fly zone for Saddam. Saddam was not permitted to fly his aircraft in no-fly zones. Nothing was ever said about Saddam not driving or not marching under no-fly zones.

When the USA invaded Iraq, it joined with Kurdish troops to drive al-Qaeda out of northeastern Iraq. Most of al-Qaeda that were not killed fled from there to Iran.

There's a new book out called "The Bush Tragedy" by Jacob Weisburg. The book itself is not impressive but the final paragraph of the book review is interesting;

Quote:

One of my favorite books about the war, George Packer's widely acclaimed The Assassins' Gate, also addresses the question of just why the United States invaded Iraq . Packer describes a telling exchange with Richard Haass, the State Department's director of policy planning at the time, who said he expects to go to his grave not knowing the reason. In the end, Packer writes, Haass seemed to believe it was just something some people wanted to do. *

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/17/AR2008011702692.html

There were no good reasons to go to war but a lot were made up so we could invade Iraq. We see reasons being made up today so we can attack Iran. Some people never learn.

Two damn good reasons were given by the Congress in its October 16, 2002 resolution for invading Iraq. One was the fact that "al-Qaeda ... are known to be in Iraq." The other was that Saddam "continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations ... that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens."

It took al-Qaeda in Afghanistan less than five and a half years to grow from less than 100 terrorists to thousands and then perpetrate 9/11. How long would it have taken al-Qaeda in Iraq to grow from more than 200 terrorists to thousands and then perpetrate more 9/11s? Neither you or I know for certain. What we do know is that too many in the State Department were of the opinion that we should have continued the Clinton policies of watching al-Qaeda, while adhering to the strange belief that continuing to do what wasn't working (e.g., watching embassy bombings, watching an USA destroyer attack, watching al Qaeda grow to thousands) will eventually work to stop al-Qaeda terrorism.

In honor of MLK which eerily could be used today.

King on War and Peace

Quotes

Quote:

I want to say one other challenge that we face is simply that we must find an alternative to war and bloodshed. Anyone who feels, and there are still a lot of people who feel that way, that war can solve the social problems facing mankind is sleeping through a great revolution. President Kennedy said on one occasion, "Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind." The world must hear this. I pray to God that America will hear this before it is too late, because today we're fighting a war.

...

--Martin Luther King, Jr., Remaining Awake Through A Great Revolution

Okay, so the Iraq al qaida was not connected to Saddam, but was established in Iraq before the invasion.

Since the US (or rather Bush) took it upon himself to attack Iraq, why didn't Bush take care of those in the north? It is his responsibility is it not? Once anybody starts a war, you don't take responsibility for just parts of it, but in Bush's case, you ignore that important issue? When does a war consist of only parts of a country you go to war with?

ican, I know you do not wish to acknowledge the simple fact that Iraqis are killing Iraqis. Our presence or absence will not change that scenario without the Saddams. He knew how to control the people of his country; Bush doesn't know anything.

The only difference was Saddam was at least twice as effective at leading Iraqis killing Iraqis (about 240 per day), as has been post-Saddam Iraq leadership (about 120 per day).

ican711nm wrote:

The only difference was Saddam was at least twice as effective at leading Iraqis killing Iraqis (about 240 per day), as has been post-Saddam Iraq leadership (about 120 per day).

Didn't your earlier body counts amount to 140 per day under Saddam? Including the Iran-Iraq war, of course...

ican keeps posting the casualty rates in Iraq as if that's the only country in the world with violence and/or our concern. He ignores all the countries of Africa where military juntas are still killing and displacing thousands - many without drinking water and food.
...

ican keeps posting the casualty rates in Iraq as if that's the only country in the world with violence and/or our concern. He ignores all the countries of Africa where military juntas are still killing and displacing thousands - many without drinking water and food.

HINT: It's not our responsibility to bring democracy to other countries of this world. We represent only five percent of the world population; the logistics alone says it's impossible. We're already in economic trouble - facing a recession of undeterminable length; how much more suffering does ican expect from the American people to satisfy the misguided war in Iraq?

If its not our responsibility, why did you mention those other countries?

Baghdad - A suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt attacked a school in the Iraqi city of Baquba early on Tuesday, killing its guard and injuring 20 students and teachers, according to witnesses.

The bomber blew himself up as students were entering a high school in the centre of Baquba, 60 kilometres north-east of Baghdad, the witnesses said.

This attack comes a day after another suicide bomber killed at least 17 people and injured 20 at a mourning ceremony in the village of Hajaj near the northern Iraqi city of Bayji in the province of Salahaddin.

The deputy governor of the province in charge of security, Gen Ahmed Abdallah, and a member of the a tribal police unit known as the Awakening Council, Hamad Ibrahim, escaped unharmed. Both might have been the target of the Bayji bombing.

* BAIJI - A suicide bomber killed 15 people and wounded 10 when he blew himself up among mourners at a funeral for a tribal leader in a village near the northern oil refinery city of Baiji, security officials said.

QAIYARA - Two people were killed and nine wounded by a bomb in a parked car targeting an Iraqi army patrol in the town of Qaiyara near Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - U.S. forces killed two gunmen and arrested 18 others during operations in central and northern Iraq, the U.S. military said.

BAGHDAD - Iraqi special forces soldiers, backed by U.S. advisers, killed the suspected commander of 10 extremist groups implicated in attacks against Iraqi security forces and civilians in Baghdad, the U.S. military said. The man tried to grab a weapon when special forces entered a building in southwestern Baghdad's al-Amil district, it said. The man's son and neighbours said the man was shot when he tried to stop the soldiers from entering his wife's bedroom.

NEAR FALLUJA - Gunmen killed four members of a U.S.-backed neighbourhood police patrol and wounded two others in an attack on a checkpoint near Falluja, 50 km (30 miles) west of Baghdad, police said. Two of the gunmen were killed when police at the checkpoint returned fire.

BAGHDAD - Three people were wounded by a roadside bomb which exploded after a U.S. patrol went by in eastern Baghdad's Baladiyat district, police said.

BAGHDAD - Two bodies were found in different areas of Baghdad on Sunday, police said.

ANBAR PROVINCE - A U.S. Marine was killed during combat operations in western Anbar province on Saturday, the U.S. military said.

BAGHDAD - One U.S. soldier was killed by a roadside bomb in Arab Jabour on Baghdad's southern outskirts, the U.S. military said.

BAGHDAD - U.S. military aircraft hit more than 30 targets with 35 bombs weighing a total of 19,000 pounds in air strikes in Arab Jabour, the U.S. military said.