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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
Tigershark
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 12:59 am
Mister ican711nm, SIR.

What relevance does who started the Iran-Iraq war have to what is going on today?

That war was always going to happen. I myself made a (good) living from it.

Has no relevance to today's events.
0 Replies
 
Tigershark
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 01:13 am
ican711nm wrote:

I think there were two valid reasons to attack Afghanistan and Iraq. The first reason was that al-Qaeda declared and made war against America. The second reason was that al-Qaeda established training camps in Afghanistan and in Iraq (after we invaded Afghanistan). Bush's other reasons, if any, are irrelevant.


Laughing By the way, my head is far too large for me to shove it up my ass. Are you able to accomplish that with your head and your ass?


Naaa mate, ma heed's too big as well Laughing

My only problem with your statement re-al Qaeda is that they do NOT actually exist as an entity.

Please provide PROOF to the contrary.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 08:42 am
Quote:
Baghdad

- Around 7 a.m., gunmen assassinated an officer of the ministry of interior " Mohammad Aziz Al-Gatia in his car in Zafrania neighborhood ( east Baghdad) .

- Around 7 30 a.m., gunmen assassinated the deputy of Mansour taxes department in Diragh district in Mansour neighborhood ( west Baghdad).

- Around 11 a.m., an IED was planted inside the car of the head of Yarmouk council ( Dr.Falah Mansour Hussein ) who was killed in the incident with two other people who were injured .

- Around 3 p.m., a suicide bomber wearing a vest filled with explosives targeted a police check point at Al-Medain district ( south of Baghdad) killing one policeman and injuring three ( one policeman and two civilians).

- Around 3 p.m., two mortars hit Medain district ( south of Baghdad ) injuring 2 people.

- Around 3 .30 p.m., a roadside bomb targeted an American patrol at Rashid camp neighborhood ( south east Baghdad) . No casualties reported.

- Police found 5 unidentified dead bodies in the following neighborhood in Baghdad: ( 3 ) dead bodies were found in west Baghdad ( Karkh bank ) ; 1 in Doura , 1 in Bayaa and Amil . While ( 2 ) were found in east Baghdad ( Risafa bank) ; 1 in Ubaidi and 1 in Fudhailiyah.

Diyala

- Tuesday morning, a roadside bomb exploded at a house in Jalwla ( east of Baquba) killing a woman who was the owner of the house.


source

Just a grim reminder amid all the claims of military victory in Iraq we have heard in recent months. McCain is glad Iraq is off the front pages and I see why.

Straight Talk Expressed: McCain Says He Is Glad Iraq Is "Off The Front Pages"
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 08:51 am
Quote:
Today at the Heritage Foundation, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle Eastern Affairs Mark Kimmitt said 2008 will be "far more difficult" than 2007 for the U.S. strategy because "it depends far more on the Iraqis themselves to show progress on key legislation, on their economy, and reconciliation." Kimmitt predicted only a mild chance that "surge" security gains will last:

Quote:
2008 and beyond will be a success, the surge will be a success, if the gains in security can be translated into gains in stability…if I had to put a number to it, maybe it's three in 10, maybe it's 50-50, if we play our cards right.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/08/pentagon-surge-succeed/
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 12:12 pm
Tigershark wrote:
Mister ican711nm, SIR.

What relevance does who started the Iran-Iraq war have to what is going on today?

That war was always going to happen. I myself made a (good) living from it.

Has no relevance to today's events.

Yes, it does have relevance to todays events just like the rest of Saddam's rule. It has relevance to today's Iraq violent death rate in that it provides perspective for today's rate. Over the 24 year period Saddam ruled Iraq (including but not limited to the Saddam initiated 1980-1988 Iraq-Iran war), the Iraq average daily violent death rate was 240. Over the 5 year period the USA has been in Iraq, the Iraq average daily violent death rate was 49 (in December 2007 it was 30). That implies that were the USA to pull out of Irag before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves without our help, the Iraq violent death rate would leap to a far more horrific rate than the current level.

Encyclopedia Britannica Books of the Year wrote:

YEAR ..... IRAQ TOTAL .............. ANNUAL .. ANNUAL ...... ANNUAL
.............. POPULATION ............. DEATHS .. NonViolent .. Violent
............................................................... Deaths ....... Deaths
2002 24,002,000 144,012 128,987 ........................................ 15,025
2001 23,332,000 144,658 125,386 ........................................ 19,272
2000 22,676,000 145,126 121,861 ........................................ 23,265
1999 22,427,000 165,960 120,523 ........................................ 45,437
1998 21,722,000 182,465 116,734 ........................................ 65,731
1997 22,219,000 208,859 119,405 ........................................ 89,454
1996 21,422,000 222,789 115,122 ........................................ 107,667
1995 20,413,000 206,171 109,700 ........................................ 96,471
1994 19,869,000 194,716 106,776 ........................................ 87,940
1993 19,435,000 158,395 104,444 ........................................ 53,951
1992 18,838,000 122,447 101,236 ........................................ 21,211
1991 18,317,000 128,219 98,436 ........................................ 29,783
1990 17,754,000 133,155 95,410 ........................................ 37,745
1989 17,215,000 137,720 92,514 ........................................ 45,206
1988 16,630,000 136,366 89,370 ........................................ 46,996
1987 16,476,000 138,398 88,542 ........................................ 49,856
1986 15,946,000 137,136 85,694 ........................................ 51,442
1985 15,676,000 136,381 84,243 ........................................ 52,138
1984 15,358,000 133,615 82,534 ........................................ 51,081
1983 15,040,000 130,848 80,825 ........................................ 50,023
1982 14,722,000 128,081 79,116 ........................................ 48,965
1981 14,404,000 125,315 77,407 ........................................ 47,908
1980 14,086,000 122,548 75,698 ........................................ 46,850
1979 13,768,000 119,782 73,989 ........................................ 45,793
TOTALS .......... 3,603,162 2,373,952 ................................... 1,229,210
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 12:37 pm
Tigershark wrote:
ican711nm wrote:

I think there were two valid reasons to attack Afghanistan and Iraq. The first reason was that al-Qaeda declared and made war against America. The second reason was that al-Qaeda established training camps in Afghanistan and in Iraq (after we invaded Afghanistan). Bush's other reasons, if any, are irrelevant.


Laughing By the way, my head is far too large for me to shove it up my ass. Are you able to accomplish that with your head and your ass?


Naaa mate, ma heed's too big as well Laughing

My only problem with your statement re-al Qaeda is that they do NOT actually exist as an entity.

Please provide PROOF to the contrary.

Alrighty! I'll do that again just for you!

Osama bin Laden wrote:

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
Osama Bin Laden: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans-1998
… On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

Quote:

9/11 Commission Report
2.3 THE RISE OF BIN LADIN AND AL QAEDA (1988-1992)
...
Bin Ladin understood better than most of the volunteers the extent to which the continuation and eventual success of the jihad in Afghanistan depended on an increasingly complex, almost worldwide organization. This organization included a financial support network that came to be known as the "Golden Chain," put together mainly by financiers in Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states. Donations flowed through charities or other nongovernmental organizations (NGOs). Bin Ladin and the "Afghan Arabs" drew largely on funds raised by this network, whose agents roamed world markets to buy arms and supplies for the mujahideen, or "holy warriors."21
...
Bin Ladin now had a vision of himself as head of an international jihad confederation. In Sudan, he established an "Islamic Army Shura" that was to serve as the coordinating body for the consortium of terrorist groups with which he was forging alliances. It was composed of his own al Qaeda Shura together with leaders or representatives of terrorist organizations that were still independent. In building this Islamic army, he enlisted groups from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Oman, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Somalia, and Eritrea. Al Qaeda also established cooperative but less formal relationships with other extremist groups from these same countries; from the African states of Chad, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, and Uganda; and from the Southeast Asian states of Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Bin Ladin maintained connections in the Bosnian conflict as well.37 The groundwork for a true global terrorist network was being laid.
...
Bin Ladin seemed willing to include in the confederation terrorists from almost every corner of the Muslim world. His vision mirrored that of Sudan's Islamist leader, Turabi, who convened a series of meetings under the label Popular Arab and Islamic Conference around the time of Bin Ladin's arrival in that country. Delegations of violent Islamist extremists came from all the groups represented in Bin Ladin's Islamic Army Shura. Representatives also came from organizations such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hamas, and Hezbollah.51

Quote:

9/11 Commission Report
2.5 AL QAEDA'S RENEWAL IN AFGHANISTAN (1996-1998)
...
The Taliban seemed to open the doors to all who wanted to come to Afghanistan to train in the camps. The alliance with the Taliban provided al Qaeda a sanctuary in which to train and indoctrinate fighters and terrorists, import weapons, forge ties with other jihad groups and leaders, and plot and staff terrorist schemes. While Bin Ladin maintained his own al Qaeda guesthouses and camps for vetting and training recruits, he also provided support to and benefited from the broad infrastructure of such facilities in Afghanistan made available to the global network of Islamist movements. U.S. intelligence estimates put the total number of fighters who underwent instruction in Bin Ladin-supported camps in Afghanistan from 1996 through 9/11 at 10,000 to 20,000. 78
...
Now effectively merged with Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad,82 al Qaeda promised to become the general headquarters for international terrorism, without the need for the Islamic Army Shura. Bin Ladin was prepared to pick up where he had left off in Sudan. He was ready to strike at "the head of the snake."
...
On February 23, 1998, Bin Ladin issued his public fatwa. The language had been in negotiation for some time, as part of the merger under way between Bin Ladin's organization and Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad. Less than a month after the publication of the fatwa, the teams that were to carry out the embassy attacks were being pulled together in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam. The timing and content of their instructions indicate that the decision to launch the attacks had been made by the time the fatwa was issued.88
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 12:54 pm
None of that is proof. Perhaps you don't know what proof means.

At best, that is partial evidence and the vast majority of it is second or third hand. There's no way to check the accuracy of it, or source it. It is very thin when it comes to providing a platform for an argument.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 02:38 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
None of that is proof. Perhaps you don't know what proof means.

At best, that is partial evidence and the vast majority of it is second or third hand. There's no way to check the accuracy of it, or source it. It is very thin when it comes to providing a platform for an argument.

Cycloptichorn

You are correct it is not PROOF. However, it is GOOD EVIDENCE.

Naturally, my GOOD EVIDENCE is second AND third hand. For it to be first hand, I would have had to actually been a member of al-Qaeda directly observing Osama make his confederation enlistments and declarations.

On the other hand your post contains nothing more than your opinion absent evidence of any kind. What is your evidence that al-Qaeda is not a worldwide confederation of terrorist organizations? If you again resort to your favorite false rebuttal--one cannot prove a negative--please recall that much of science is about providing evidence that negatives are true. For example, significant evidence has been provided that the earth is not the center of the universe.

I don't know anyone who can prove anything to a certainty. I believe I can't, but I cannot prove that to a certainty either. Looks like you cannot even provide any evidence much less PROOF that what you posted is true.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 02:48 pm
Quote:

On the other hand your post contains nothing more than your opinion absent evidence of any kind.


Yes, but I did not claim that it did. My post was a commentary upon yours, not a declaration of evidence had on my part.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 03:22 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

On the other hand your post contains nothing more than your opinion absent evidence of any kind.


Yes, but I did not claim that it did. My post was a commentary upon yours, not a declaration of evidence had on my part.

Cycloptichorn

Yes, I agree. That's all that your post was: "a commentary." It was merely your commentary on the evidence provided by my post, and not a disclosure of any evidence that you had to support your commentary.

In other words, your post was a worthless commentary.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 03:29 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

On the other hand your post contains nothing more than your opinion absent evidence of any kind.


Yes, but I did not claim that it did. My post was a commentary upon yours, not a declaration of evidence had on my part.

Cycloptichorn

Yes, I agree. That's all that your post was: "a commentary." It was merely your commentary on the evidence provided by my post, and not a disclosure of any evidence that you had to support your commentary.

In other words, your post was a worthless commentary.


You are welcome to your opinion; see how much good it does you, however.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 07:35 pm
Quote:
New study says 151,000 Iraqi dead


One of the biggest surveys so far of Iraqis who have died violently since the US-led invasion of 2003 has put the figure at about 151,000.

This is about a quarter of the figure given in a disputed Lancet article, but nearly three times higher than that of the Iraq Body Count campaigning group.

The result is based on interviews with over 9,000 families across Iraq carried out by the health ministry for the WHO.

The survey says more than half of all violent deaths were in Baghdad.

The World Health Organization study looks only at the period from March 2003 until June 2006.

Researchers interviewed households right across Iraq, in towns and the countryside, and asked the head of each one for details of all deaths in the group.

They say violence became a leading cause of death of Iraqi adults; among men between 15 and 59 it was the main cause of death.


...



(source)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 07:45 pm
oe, Excellent find, except ican will pass right through it; he loves his body counts.

The greatest tragedy is the simple fact that all those deaths have caused many children to become orphans, and many are now starving. Of coarse, the Bush administration never talks about those important issues. A nice christian man who values each life.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 09:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
oe, Excellent find, except ican will pass right through it; he loves his body counts.



Well, there's nothing wrong with the IBC numbers. Except that they are knowingly underreporting the numbers, due to their methodology.

The problem is that ican is comparing numbers people got using one methodology (the double-reported violent civilian deaths from the IBC) to numbers people arrived at using a different methodology (I'm not entirely sure about the methodology used by the Encyclopedia Britannica, but I seem to remember that they were using cluster sampling for their Iraqi deaths numbers, too. Would like to see if ican has more on that. However, as long as the Encyclopedia Britannica is using a methodology other than counting double-reported violent civilian deaths, it's an apple-to-oranges comparison.)


Now, concerning the Lancet study, there are certainly some points there that can be discussed - like the number of clusters, size of the sample, range of uncertainty etc.
However, to dismiss the study completely (the way the Bush administration has done, for example) ignores the fact that the exact same methodology has been used under similar circumstances - for example to estimate the number of victims in Darfur or in Bosnia - and we didn't get to hear any criticism.

So, it's gonna be interesting what people are going to say about the new Iraq Family Health Survey (IFHS). The size of households included was drastically increased in this study (9345 versus 988 in the Lancet study, with 1086 household clusters in the new study versus 47 cluster points in the old one). It's also interesting that this study was conducted by federal and regional ministries in Iraq...


Detailed findings of the study have been published in the New England Journal of Medicine.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 09:24 pm
How I interrpret the Before Invasion and After Invastion statistics is that After Invasion deaths almost doubled for all ages. Tell me if I'm wrong.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2008 07:43 am
U.S. mounts new push against Sunni militants in Iraq

Reading this it is hard to know if they are fighting Sunni militants or AQ. They keep using both words. But in any event; if we can keep this up; it seems like they might be successful in driving out the foreign influences which is what the Iraqis Sunnis seem to want.

The trouble is that we can't keep up these numbers in Iraq and it is going to be needed for a long while if they want keep up with what they are doing. (Already we need to send some to Afghanistan and they are already are) Another trouble is that once the foreign influence is gone; the Shiites is going to take over because they outnumber the Sunnis. I just see all this ("war on terror" as a waste of effort; it's like the when the Soviets tried to occupy Afghanistan. They are on their home front; they can have all the patience in the world to just wait until things die down and then regroup. What is needed is dialogue to find common ground. Like the Sunnis had a reason to stop siding with AQ in Iraq, without a reason; there is no incentive to stop.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2008 12:29 pm
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is brought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?
Mahatma Ghandi

My appeal to the citizens of Iraq.
Waste not your time with internal problems and chase out the uninvited guests who had overstayed there after the mission was achieved.
Throw those who refuse to leave your country.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2008 01:22 pm
The Sun wrote:
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2008 01:53 pm
Steve, We should all know by now that anything Bush does is founded on incompetence. (Show me where anything Bush has said or done has been done correctly - or even done.) The evidence has been around for too long for anyone to ignore; and the Brits need to double and triple check anything before they accept anything as "safe" for "ethical" from any branch of the US government.

Americans are still suffering from dementia.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2008 02:00 pm
C I
"Americans, rich or poor, now live in a culture entirely perceived through simulacra-media images and illusions.
We live inside a self-referential media hologram of a nation that has not existed for quite some time now, especially in America's heartland.
Our national reality is held together by a pale, carbon imprint of the original.
The well-off, with their upscale consumer aesthetic, live inside gated Disneyesque communities with gleaming uninhabited front porches representing some bucolic notion of the Great American home and family. The working class, true to its sports culture aesthetic, is a spectator to politics ... politics which are so entirely imagistic as to be holograms of a process, not a process.
Social realism is a television commercial for America, a simulacrum republic of eagles, church spires, brave young soldiers and heroic firefighters and “freedom of choice” within the hologram.
America's citizens have been reduced to Balkanized consumer units by the corporate state's culture producing machinery.
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Dec05/Bageant1222.htm
0 Replies
 
 

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