THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

ican wrote :

Quote:

I infer from that statement that you think that al-Qaeda will stop murdering other middle easterners, if those middle easterners were to stop allying themselves with America. Al Qaeda would then only murder Americans.

i don't think we'll understand what al qaeda is unless we understand why many poor and repressed people in the middle-east and asia , particularly PAKISTAN , believe they will be helped in their struggle against represssion by al qaeda .

perhaps these poor people are deluded , but hat else do we expect them to do ?
they are poor , they have little education , their children (boys) have no schools ... and here comes al qaeda ready to help them !
do we expect them to turn down the help ?

almost any report coming out of pakistan speaks of the enormous CORRUPTION !
the country is ruled by a few hundered families and the rest of the people are dirt poor and uneducated .

i can't possibly cite all the reports and sources , but will give just one for today .

this comes from the report of the ANTI-CORRUPTION RESOURCE CENTRE .

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Thus, the exercise of highlighting some of the sectors should be read with the knowledge that corruption in Pakistan seems pervasive across most sectors. With that in mind, it is safe to say that expert sources indicate that the following sectors are among those most affected by corruption (the particular order varies from source to source):

Police and law enforcement
Judiciary and legal profession
Power sector
Tax and customs
Health and education
Land administration
In addition, Public Procurement seems to be a major concern across most sectors

the recent firing of most of the supreme court judges seems to have brought any hope of improvements to a halt .

full report :
ANTI-CORRUPTION RESOURCE CENTRE

in the western world we just see al qaeda as a bunch of murderes , but that is not how they are being seen by the poor and repressed people of pakistan . al qaeda is seen by many poor villagers as the people who are helping them against corrupt officials and who provide schooling to their boys in religious schools (madrassas) .
of course , in the west we probably think that's just awful ... but put yourself in the shoes - poor choice of words , he probably doesn't even have shoes ! - of a poor villager and you might just change your mind .

if we can offer the poor of pakistan and the other countries something better than what they now have , al qaeda will likely wither on the vine , just like communism did .
if we don't ... (you can fill your own answer) .
hbg

Your belief system that America's presence and past actions in the Middle East are adequate justification for middle easterners to murder middle easterners, Americans, and others, is asininity bordering on lunacy.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

People are not cancer cells, they don't act like them, they aren't anything even resembling them. That's your biggest problem. You don't see member of AQ as people. But, they are people. Many of them turned to AQ solely because of our actions in Iraq, and no other reason.

Your failure to understand the enemy leads to a basic misunderstanding of the situation and how to solve it. You seek to remove humanity from the enemies in order to justify your analogies, and this is foolish in the extreme.

Cycloptichorn

It is your failure to understand reality that is your problem. Your system of beliefs is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. Yet you continue to peddle it.

Members of al-Qaeda have adopted an anti-human-life religion or belief system in the belief that adhering to that religion or belief system will buy them a fun place in paradise. Having chosen of their own free will to do that, such people have surrendered any claims or rights of humans. Any other humans that adopt an anti-human-life belief system surrender the same. It's long past time for people who think like you to wise up before it's too late, and reject the notion that adopters of an anti-human-life belief system are caused to do that by people who have not adopted an anti-human-life belief system.

WASHINGTON - The war in Iraq has become a "cause célèbre" for Islamic extremists, breeding deep resentment of the U.S. that probably will get worse before it gets better, federal intelligence analysts conclude in a report at odds with President Bush's contention of a world growing safer.

In the bleak report, declassified and released Tuesday on Bush's orders, the nation's most veteran analysts conclude that despite serious damage to the leadership of al-Qaida, the threat from Islamic extremists has spread both in numbers and in geographic reach.

If AQ and other terrorist groups are being created because of our actions in Iraq, then please explain all of the terror groups that existed BEFORE we went into Iraq.

Groups like Black September, the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, The "Red brigade", etc.
These groups have been attacking US citizens since the 1970's that I can remember.
They would hijack American planes, kill American citizens, and attack others that they dont agree with.
Surely some of you are old enough to remember what happened at the Munich Olympics.

While that was an attack on the Israeli team, that group existed before we went into Iraq.
Why were they attacking us then, if we hadnt attacked Iraq?

...

You are the one peddles theories without any evidence to back them up and you do this despite having evidence to disprove your theories.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"-1996.

I say to you ... These youths [love] death as you love life.
…Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner.

… Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
Osama Bin Laden: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans-1998
… On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00035.html
Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols; Translation By JUS; Jun 09, 2004 from the Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf; 19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425
… No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.

… Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.

Al Qaeda's seven phase plan for world conquest.

Phase 1, the "wakeup call." Spectacular terrorist attacks on the West
(like September 11, 2001) get the infidels (non-Moslems) to make war on
Islamic nations. This arouses Moslems, and causes them to flock to al
Qaedas banner. This phase is considered complete.

Phase 2, the "eye opening." This is the phase we are in, where al Qaeda
does battle with the infidels, and shows over a billion Moslems how
it's done. This phase is supposed to be completed by next year.

Phase 3, "the rising." Millions of aroused (in a terrorist sense)
Moslems go to war against Islam's enemies for the rest of the decade.
Especially heavy attacks are made against Israel. It is believed that
major damage in Israel will force the world to acknowledge al Qaeda as a major power, and negotiate with it.

Phase 4, "the downfall." By 2013, al Qaeda will control the Persian
Gulf, and all its oil, as well as most of the Middle East. This will
enable al Qaeda to cripple the American economy, and American military
power.

Phase 5, "the Caliphate." By 2016, the Caliphate (one government for
all Moslem nations) will be established. At this point, nearly all
Western cultural influences will be eliminated from Islamic nations. The
Caliphate will organize a mighty army for the next phase.

Phase 6, "world conquest." By 2022, the rest of the world will be
conquered by the righteous and unstoppable armies of Islam. This is the
phase that Osama bin Laden has been talking about for years.

Phase 7, "final victory." All the world's inhabitants will be forced to
either convert to Islam, or submit (as second class citizens) to
Islamic rule. This will be completed by 2025 or thereabouts.

... the U.S., Israel and India [are] existential enemies of Islam and lists eight reasons for global jihad. These include the restoration of Islamic sovereignty to all lands where Muslims were once ascendant, including Spain, "Bulgaria, Hungary, Cyprus, Sicily, Ethiopia, Russian Turkistan and Chinese Turkistan. . . Even parts of France reaching 90 kilometers outside Paris."

9/11 Commission Report

2 THE FOUNDATION OF THE NEW TERRORISM

2.1 A DECLARATION OF WAR
In February 1998, the 40-year-old Saudi exile Usama Bin Ladin and a fugitive Egyptian physician, Ayman al Zawahiri, arranged from their Afghan headquarters for an Arabic newspaper in London to publish what they termed a fatwa issued in the name of a "World Islamic Front." A fatwa is normally an interpretation of Islamic law by a respected Islamic authority, but neither Bin Ladin, Zawahiri, nor the three others who signed this statement were scholars of Islamic law. Claiming that America had declared war against God and his messenger, they called for the murder of any American, anywhere on earth, as the "individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it."1

Three months later, when interviewed in Afghanistan by ABC-TV, Bin Ladin enlarged on these themes.2 He claimed it was more important for Muslims to kill Americans than to kill other infidels. "It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities," he said. Asked whether he approved of terrorism and of attacks on civilians, he replied: "We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets."
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Plans to attack the United States were developed with unwavering single-mindedness throughout the 1990s. Bin Ladin saw himself as called "to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger and to communicate his message to all nations,"5 and to serve as the rallying point and organizer of a new kind of war to destroy America and bring the world to Islam.
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9/11 Commission Report
2.3 THE RISE OF BIN LADIN AND AL QAEDA (1988-1992)
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Bin Ladin understood better than most of the volunteers the extent to which the continuation and eventual success of the jihad in Afghanistan depended on an increasingly complex, almost worldwide organization. This organization included a financial support network that came to be known as the "Golden Chain," put together mainly by financiers in Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states. Donations flowed through charities or other nongovernmental organizations (NGOs). Bin Ladin and the "Afghan Arabs" drew largely on funds raised by this network, whose agents roamed world markets to buy arms and supplies for the mujahideen, or "holy warriors."21
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Bin Ladin now had a vision of himself as head of an international jihad confederation. In Sudan, he established an "Islamic Army Shura" that was to serve as the coordinating body for the consortium of terrorist groups with which he was forging alliances. It was composed of his own al Qaeda Shura together with leaders or representatives of terrorist organizations that were still independent. In building this Islamic army, he enlisted groups from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Oman, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Somalia, and Eritrea. Al Qaeda also established cooperative but less formal relationships with other extremist groups from these same countries; from the African states of Chad, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, and Uganda; and from the Southeast Asian states of Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Bin Ladin maintained connections in the Bosnian conflict as well.37 The groundwork for a true global terrorist network was being laid.
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Bin Ladin seemed willing to include in the confederation terrorists from almost every corner of the Muslim world. His vision mirrored that of Sudan's Islamist leader, Turabi, who convened a series of meetings under the label Popular Arab and Islamic Conference around the time of Bin Ladin's arrival in that country. Delegations of violent Islamist extremists came from all the groups represented in Bin Ladin's Islamic Army Shura. Representatives also came from organizations such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hamas, and Hezbollah.51
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9/11 Commission Report
2.5 AL QAEDA'S RENEWAL IN AFGHANISTAN (1996-1998)
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The Taliban seemed to open the doors to all who wanted to come to Afghanistan to train in the camps. The alliance with the Taliban provided al Qaeda a sanctuary in which to train and indoctrinate fighters and terrorists, import weapons, forge ties with other jihad groups and leaders, and plot and staff terrorist schemes. While Bin Ladin maintained his own al Qaeda guesthouses and camps for vetting and training recruits, he also provided support to and benefited from the broad infrastructure of such facilities in Afghanistan made available to the global network of Islamist movements. U.S. intelligence estimates put the total number of fighters who underwent instruction in Bin Ladin-supported camps in Afghanistan from 1996 through 9/11 at 10,000 to 20,000. 78
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Now effectively merged with Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad,82 al Qaeda promised to become the general headquarters for international terrorism, without the need for the Islamic Army Shura. Bin Ladin was prepared to pick up where he had left off in Sudan. He was ready to strike at "the head of the snake."
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On February 23, 1998, Bin Ladin issued his public fatwa. The language had been in negotiation for some time, as part of the merger under way between Bin Ladin's organization and Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad. Less than a month after the publication of the fatwa, the teams that were to carry out the embassy attacks were being pulled together in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam. The timing and content of their instructions indicate that the decision to launch the attacks had been made by the time the fatwa was issued.88
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9/11 Commission Report
The attack on the U.S. embassy in Nairobi destroyed the embassy and killed 12 Americans and 201 others, almost all Kenyans. About 5,000 people were injured. The attack on the U.S. embassy in Dar es Salaam killed 11 more people, none of them Americans. Interviewed later about the deaths of the Africans, Bin Ladin answered that "when it becomes apparent that it would be impossible to repel these Americans without assaulting them, even if this involved the killing of Muslims, this is permissible under Islam." Asked if he had indeed masterminded these bombings, Bin Ladin said that the World Islamic Front for jihad against "Jews and Crusaders" had issued a "crystal clear" fatwa. If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans to liberate the holy places "is considered a crime," he said, "let history be a witness that I am a criminal."93
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www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
Summary of Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi July 9, 2005.
The war in Iraq is central to al Qa'ida's global jihad.
The war will not end with an American departure.[/b]
The strategic vision is one of inevitable conflict with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.
More than half the struggle is taking place "in the battlefield of the media."
Popular support must be maintained at least until jihadist rule has been established.

Shiite sacred mosque explosion in Samarra
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In Baghdad, National Security Adviser Mouwafak al-Rubaie blamed religious zealots such as the al-Qaida terror network, telling Al-Arabiya television that the attack was an attempt "to pull Iraq toward civil war."
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You also seem to think there are just as set number of terrorist and once we kill them all; we will have solved the problem. Or you think if we can't kill them all; we will have killed enough of them so that the rest will magically throw up their hands in defeat and come to our side. Both of those beliefs go against all examples we have had concerning how Middle Eastern disaffected terrorist behave. They seem to have a lot of patience and are able to wait to regroup and fight another day despite any words they may say about reconciliation or just hiding out and lying low for a while.

Quote:

Your belief system that America's presence and past actions in the Middle East are adequate justification for middle easterners to murder middle easterners, Americans, and others, is asininity bordering on lunacy.

This is a ridiculous statement which, of course, has nothing to do with my current or any of my past stated opinions.
...
Cycloptichorn

Actually, I really think we should persist in exterminating al-Qaeda members faster than al-Qaeda can recruit replacements.

Q: Lord Owen, when you look at both Kenya and Pakistan, do you find yourself reflecting on a sense that the democratic roots in countries like that are actually quite shallow - dangerously shallow you might almost argue?

Lord Owen: Well, look at India. India has managed to retain democracy all through this period. What has gone particularly wrong in Pakistan is that it was a divided country.


Partition was not just a single partition, there was east Pakistan and west Pakistan and they were not able to be maintained together. There was also military divisions and, right from the moment of independence, there was a dispute over Kashmir. So you had a big serious dispute which went right on ever since 1947.

So I think there are serious problems affecting Pakistan but I do believe that you shouldn't give up on Pakistan as being a democracy and I still think it's possible to hold elections - they are now postponed until February.

But I think that again we should have been firmer about Musharraf becoming a civilian. He's now eventually done that as president.

But the sign of hope in Pakistan has been the judiciary - the judiciary held firm - and the chief justice held firm and I still think it's possible to push and persuade and cajole and use all the influence we can, particularly now of course, in Pakistan, with the United States being really influential and so I don't give up on it and I think these elections in February are very important.

Q: Lord Hurd, you are slightly more reticent about the idea of imposing pressure by some of these sorts of things. What about the case of President Musharraf, do you think we did give him too much of our confidence over the past couple of years?

Lord Hurd: It's the same cycle as we've talked of before. In Pakistan you have a democratic system, it becomes corrupt - people are quite ready to accept military rule to clear up the mess, get the rascals out - then the military rule becomes corrupt and unacceptable and that is what's been happening to Musharraf.


I think what is going to happen in Pakistan in the next few months is as important as anything for this country - more important probably than what happens in the American elections - because it's a nuclear state and more important actually because our success or failure of our troops in Afghanistan probably depends on what happens in Pakistan and therefore this is absolutely crucial.

There is a chance of the elections now to be held in February - it depends on the old question - it is not just a question of having free and fair elections, it is a question of have you got the other things in place - the judiciary, as David Owen says, a reasonably honest administration, an army prepared to keep out of politics and a reasonably free press.

If this time the institutions are strong enough in Pakistan then democracy can be sustained - it will depend on that - we can have some influence but not the crucial one.

Q: Let me ask Lord Owen how you think we should be exercising what influence we do have in Pakistan at the moment?

Lord Owen: Well I think it is a good idea to get Scotland Yard involved. It would have been ideal to have had a UN inquiry but that was never going to happen. I think the idea of trying to establish very quickly now what really did happen to Benazir Bhutto - did any of the bullets enter her body? What was the cause of death? - I think that would help eradicate one of the areas of dissent which is clearly there at the moment.

I think there are other ways in which we can use our influence. The current chief of the army does seem to want to stay out of politics and is seemingly ready to take a look at the military intelligence which has always been the worst element in the Pakistan army.

So there are some signs of hope but the main thing is Musharraf must recognise that there has to be a proper election and a serious transfer to civilian power.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/politics

ican wrote :

Quote:

Actually, I really think we should persist in exterminating al-Qaeda members faster than al-Qaeda can recruit replacements.

AQ will likely disappear just like the RED MENACE (aka as communism) disappeared when people have a better life .

... hbg

Ican; I can find American politician fundamentalist who make statements which are kind of out there but I don't think all republican conservatives are the same as the jerry Farwell's of the world. For instance I don't think all those who favor bush and the Iraq war are fundamentalist evangelistically politicians. In like matter not all of middle east/Muslims who have turned terrorist are extremist Islamic. Also what hamburger said makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Intelligence reports and top analyst have said the Iraq war has helped spread AQ and terrorism around the world. Links have been left.

First, communism disappeared in Russia. Second, people in Russia obtained a better life. It was not the other way around.

ican wrote :

Quote:

First, communism disappeared in Russia. Second, people in Russia obtained a better life. It was not the other way around.

i'm glad to learn that communism has disappeared in russia
hbg

Likewise, first al-Qaeda has got to be made to disappear. Second, the people in Iraq etc will obtain a better life.