9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 03:35 pm
McT, The US embassy in Iraq will be an empty shell like the brains of those who planned it.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 04:04 pm
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 04:12 pm
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Mmm hmm. How dare these people protest against being assigned to a war zone!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 04:22 pm
Maybe ican will volunteer. LOL
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 05:55 pm
With friends like these

The House of Saud may insist they're allies against fanaticism, but the reality is much more disturbing

Jason Burke
Wednesday October 31, 2007
The Guardian


In the spring of 2003, local imams in northern Iraq were worried. Not just about the impending war, but about the inroads that ultra-conservative, intolerant and aggressive strands of Islam were making among their traditionally moderate congregations. The enemy in this particular struggle was not Saddam, they said, but Saudi Arabia.

Since the Kurdish regions had established a de facto autonomy in the wake of the first Gulf war, the imam at the main mosque in Sulaymaniyah explained, hundreds of mosques had been built by Saudi Arabian religious foundations, their ultra-conservative imams imported from the Arabian peninsula. He and his fellow clerics simply did not have the means to compete with the massive aid being distributed by Saudi-based charitable organisations - aid contingent on attendance at special Qur'anic lessons, on wives or sisters wearing a veil and leaving secular political parties. Most damaging of all, he said, was the flood of pamphlets and books that pushed a worldview in which Jews, Christians, Shias and the west were cast as Muslims' sworn enemies.

The rolling hills and grassy plains of Kurdistan are a long way from Whitehall, the Mall and the trappings of a state visit. Yet they ought not to be so far from the thoughts of the various dignitaries warmly shaking the hands of the Saudi royals than they no doubt are.

What I heard in Sulaymaniyah should surprise no one. For many decades, Saudi Arabia has used its prodigious profits from oil not just to buy off domestic dissent but to fund the export around the world of one of the most conservative, rigorous and intolerant strains of Islam.

The origins of Saudi Arabia lie in an alliance between a tribal chief, Muhammad Ibn Al-Saud, and a fiery revivalist theologian and preacher, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahab. The former needed fired-up, holy warriors to weld together a state. The latter needed shelter and a logistic base. When the new nation of Saudi Arabia solidified after two centuries of on-off conflict that deal was translated into a new arrangement by which the House of Saud kept secular power but al-Wahab's followers had a free religious hand. In foreign policy, the goal of disseminating Wahabism throughout the Islamic world has coincided perfectly with more secular aims such as countering the influence of Arab nationalism, revolutionary Shia, Iran and communism or, more recently, of extending influence into Africa, Asia and Europe.

In Britain, a struggle between religious doctrines has gripped immigrant communities, sharpened by propaganda bankrolled out of the Arabian peninsula. We have also suffered individuals educated in Saudi universities such as Sheikh Faisal, who was imprisoned for his anti-semitic and anti-western comments, and Omar Bakri Muhammad, the leader of the al-Muhajiroun group, whose members have been linked to militant activities ranging from jihadi fund-raising to suicide bombing. Bakri told me proudly, if somewhat bizarrely, that he was a "hardcore Wahabi" as we sat on Richard and Judy's green room sofa.

It would be wrong to go too far. The Saudis have made some reforms of school and university curriculum, have tightened up monitoring of funding and have attempted to co-opt radical local clerics. Others have been imprisoned. There is an innovative rehabilitation programme.

But the impression remains that the House of Saud has one strategic message for internal consumption, one for the west and one for the broader international Muslim community. And though the Saudis insist they are allies against intolerance, fanaticism and prejudice, for the moment it is understandable if the Kurdish clerics and millions of others who follow centuries-old moderate traditions of Islam remain unconvinced.

ยท Jason Burke is the author of Al-Qaeda: the True Story of Radical Islam
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2202156,00.html
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:31 pm
It appears the situation in Iraq is thus;

Basra and its oil is outside of the control of the Iraqi government. Warring Shiite militias dominate the region.

Northern Iraq is outside of the control of the Iraqi government. Kurdish militias control the northern pipelines and are waiting to expand to the southwest and take over Kirkuk.

So we have, as one person said, Maliki being nothing more than the Mayor of the Green Zone and General Odierno his sherif.

But the Surge is working so we're winning!!!

Now we can attack Iran, the second axis of evil.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:41 pm
The "axis" includes North Korea. I wonder if the Bush gang has planned anything like a bombing campaign on the NKs? Makes as much sense of our attack on Iraq and the planning on Iran. Just the rhetoric on NK is missing.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:44 pm
I think Bush has pretty much forgot about North Korea. Iran is his next target.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:56 pm
xingu wrote:
I think Bush has pretty much forgot about North Korea. Iran is his next target.

Naaaa! Crawford, Texas is Bush's next target.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:59 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Maybe ican will volunteer. LOL

They turned me down! Crying or Very sad Said I wasn't diplomatic enough. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 08:13 pm
I can understand why.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 08:12 am
Baghdad violence, U.S. deaths hit new lows for year

BAGHDAD ?- Violence hit a yearly low in Baghdad during October, according to end-of-the-month statistics compiled Wednesday, even as killings elsewhere raised worrisome questions about whether security improvements will hold if the United States begins drawing down its forces next spring.

American troop deaths in October declined for the fifth straight month ?- to 36, the lowest monthly total this year and the seventh lowest in 56 months of war, according to Iraq Coalition Casualty Count, which tracks deaths and injuries among troops in Iraq.

Of October's deaths, 27 were caused by enemy action, Iraq Coalition Casualty Count reported on its Web site. That total continued a steep drop-off in U.S. combat deaths that began in June, when the U.S. military completed its so-called surge of troops into Iraq. U.S. deaths by hostile action peaked in May at 120 and have declined every month since.

Civilian deaths in Baghdad also reached a low point for the year during October, statistics compiled by McClatchy Newspapers show. In all, 114 people died in explosions in the Iraqi capital during the month, according to the statistics, while the number of unidentified bodies found on Baghdad's streets totaled 168. Both figures are well below the peak months this year of 520 in February and 736 in May.

Even so, the capital remained a dangerous place. While car bombs declined to 15 from September's 19, the number of blasts caused by improvised explosive devices increased by more than 60 percent, from 30 to 48. The number of people injured in explosions in the capital rose 19 percent, from 378 in September to 450 in October, according to the McClatchy statistics, which are gathered daily from police and other official sources, but which probably undercount violence in the capital.

Of the 27 U.S. combat deaths, at least 19 occurred in Baghdad, according to Iraq Coalition Casualty Count. Of the six months with fewer combat casualties, five occurred in the first 12 months of the war.

A U.S. spokesman said the military wasn't prepared to declare victory in the capital. He said the decline in violence is the result of several interconnected factors, any of which could unravel.

For one, anti-American Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al Sadr could call off the cease-fire he declared, which could lead to renewed attacks on American forces. A major bombing by al Qaida in Iraq, a Sunni-dominated group, could spur retaliation attacks by Shiite militias. Or one of the new local leaders working with U.S. troops to root out al Qaida in Iraq insurgents could be assassinated, destroying the fragile peace in his neighborhood.

"We are not declaring victory," said Col. Steve Boylan, the spokesman for Gen. David Petraeus, the top military commander in Iraq who in September told Congress that U.S. troops could begin coming home by March. "It's too early."

Two other factors could indicate trouble ahead.

Violence remains high in provinces outside Baghdad. In Baqouba, the capital of Diyala province, police said at least 17 decapitated bodies were found this week, and a suicide bomber on a bicycle detonated himself in front of a police center, killing at least 27.

Police blame the violence on al Qaida in Iraq, many of whose members are believed to have escaped a U.S. offensive over the summer and remain active in the province.

In the southern Shiite-dominated cities of Karbala and Basra, residents describe their communities as open battlefields between rival Shiite factions fighting for control.

U.S. officials also are concerned that the government of Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki has done little to capitalize on the relative calming of the capital. Virtually no action has been taken on benchmarks that once were the U.S. standard for progress in Iraq.

Maliki's government also has been slow to incorporate Sunni volunteers into the Shiite-dominated security forces.

In many places throughout the capital, local groups, not official security forces, provide protection. Teenagers guard the entrances to neighborhoods while tribal leaders meet with rival sects to negotiate cease-fires. U.S. troops protect water supplies and electricity generators.

A report by the Government Accountability Office in Washington warned Tuesday that the U.S. and Iraqi governments haven't taken advantage of the drop in violence.

Other observers, while acknowledging that violence is down in the capital, say they believe that Baghdad remains a battleground.

"The 'surge' in Baghdad has reduced the level of killings and major violence, but not ended sectarian displacement and tension," Anthony Cordesman, an Iraq analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, wrote recently. "The end result is an unstable mosaic of Shiite, Sunni and mixed zones that can explode into violence if the U.S. leaves (and perhaps if it stays), or simply keep Iraq's most important city and province unstable and divided."

There's no consensus about why violence has declined so rapidly in the capital or why U.S. combat casualties have dropped so dramatically.

U.S. officials partially credit raids against al Qaida in Iraq bomb-making factories and say the detentions and deaths of insurgent leaders have unbalanced the organization.

A rebellion by tribal leaders in Anbar province against al Qaida in Iraq, which drove the insurgent group from the province, also played a role in reducing U.S. casualties.

But some troops believe that the decline in U.S. casualties also is due to some groups' decision to avoid fighting U.S. forces head on or to leave Baghdad to fight rival groups in nearby provinces.

Some residents believe the drop in Iraqi deaths in the capital has happened because so much ethnic cleansing has left simply fewer people to kill.

Outside Baghdad, residents say they believe violence is getting worse, though statistics weren't available to confirm their impressions.

"The explosions and the bombs appear from time to time, and the security forces don't react the way they should," said Asow Mohammad al Shahwani, 30, a bookshop owner in the northern mixed Kurdish/Arab city of Kirkuk. "Many neighborhoods are out of government and security forces' control."

Ali Mazin, 39, a teacher in Basra who feels the violence is worsening, said he believes it's too late for Iraq's central government to assert authority there.

"The city is an open one, and I see no role for the local or the central government in this city. The Iranians are playing a greater role in our governorate" than the Iraqi government, he said.

ON THE WEB

To see the statistics, go to icasualties.org.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 08:17 am
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Quote:
The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


Juan Cole
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 11:01 am
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Quote:
The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


Juan Cole

Juan Cole's bigotry against the right is well established. He openly scorns all conservatives who advocate: all humans are endowed by God with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; and, humans forfeit those rights they deny others, including one's liberty to lawfully earn and possess more property than some, and lawfully earn and possess less property than others.

Diplomacy alone will generally work between states seeking mutually agreeable agreements. Diplomacy alone generally does not work when negotiating with tyrants or suicidal mass murderers. Generally, diplomacy with tyrants and suicidal mass murderers works only when accompanied by the threat or use of force
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 02:04 pm
ican711nm wrote:
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Quote:
The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


Juan Cole

Juan Cole's bigotry against the right is well established. He openly scorns all conservatives who advocate: all humans are endowed by God with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; and, humans forfeit those rights they deny others, including one's liberty to lawfully earn and possess more property than some, and lawfully earn and possess less property than others.

Diplomacy alone will generally work between states seeking mutually agreeable agreements. Diplomacy alone generally does not work when negotiating with tyrants or suicidal mass murderers. Generally, diplomacy with tyrants and suicidal mass murderers works only when accompanied by the threat or use of force


Ican you speak in hyperboles which has the effect of negating any points you may (miracles do happen) make.

Can you back up any of those claims you made in regards to Juan Cole with quotes to prove the specific statements you made? I seriously doubt it in which case your entire point about Juan Cole is useless.

I agree diplomacy in Iraq will not work; Iraqis themselves have to want to come together and decide on their own to lay down their arms against each other. An outside military solution will only bring about an occupied state. The Iraqis themselves turned against AQ (what little AQ there was in Iraq) and they will have to do the rest themselves too becauase only they can. It is past time for us to get out and now that things are improving; we have no excuse not to. If we say we have stay too keep things going better; well, that can always be said and then we can never leave. If things get worse even while we are there and with this surge going on; it will be proof that we can't fix Iraq no matter how long we stay. Either way; we should go home and let them try to put they're country back together in any manner they see fit.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 02:49 pm
More on the need to pressure Congress to close the US embassy in Baghdad (see below). First, here is some correspondence:

Quote:
'As a retired foreign service officer . . . at the State Department in Washington, I would like to add to your rationale for closing the US Embassy in Bagdad to save lives. In addition to the extreme danger involved, many of us would not go to Iraq because there is virtually nothing we can accomplish there. We could have no contact with ordinary Iraqis and would put our professional contacts or, for example, potential cultural exchange grantees, in great danger, simply by virtue of being seen with us, working with us, or participating in our programs. Unless some minimum level of security is established, we would be unable to achieve any worthwhile results, while causing great harm to cooperating Iraqis and their families--putting our own lives as risk for activities that would in the end likely prove useless and even shameful. I prefer not to go online, but wanted to share this with you. Keep up the good work. '


From ican's favorite source of information;

JUAN COLE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 02:56 pm
xingu, That's too funny for words. Wink
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 03:08 pm
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Quote:
The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


Juan Cole

Juan Cole's bigotry against the right is well established. He openly scorns all conservatives who advocate: all humans are endowed by God with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; and, humans forfeit those rights they deny others, including one's liberty to lawfully earn and possess more property than some, and lawfully earn and possess less property than others.

Diplomacy alone will generally work between states seeking mutually agreeable agreements. Diplomacy alone generally does not work when negotiating with tyrants or suicidal mass murderers. Generally, diplomacy with tyrants and suicidal mass murderers works only when accompanied by the threat or use of force


Ican you speak in hyperboles which has the effect of negating any points you may (miracles do happen) make.

Can you back up any of those claims you made in regards to Juan Cole with quotes to prove the specific statements you made? I seriously doubt it in which case your entire point about Juan Cole is useless.

I agree diplomacy in Iraq will not work; Iraqis themselves have to want to come together and decide on their own to lay down their arms against each other. An outside military solution will only bring about an occupied state. The Iraqis themselves turned against AQ (what little AQ there was in Iraq) and they will have to do the rest themselves too becauase only they can. It is past time for us to get out and now that things are improving; we have no excuse not to. If we say we have stay too keep things going better; well, that can always be said and then we can never leave. If things get worse even while we are there and with this surge going on; it will be proof that we can't fix Iraq no matter how long we stay. Either way; we should go home and let them try to put they're country back together in any manner they see fit.

I'll use future excerpts of Juan Cole as they are posted here to make my point that Juan Cole is bigoted against conservatives, who honor the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution as amended, and do not honor misquotes or misinterpretations of either.

So far the surge has led to the gradual reduction of the violent death rate in Iraq. The question I think worth debating is: to what point must the Iraq violent death rate be reduced for how long, before it would be sensible for the US military to leave Iraq?

I recommended that we stay until the Iraq violent death rate is reduced below an average of 30 per day, before we start to end the surge, and it remains below 30, until our troops are removed, and it remains below 30 for a year thereafter.

I infer that you think that death rate--currently below 50--is low enough to warrant our leaving now.

I also think our presence in Iraq is helping reduce that violent death rate, and if we were to leave prematurely, that violent death rate would surge again.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 03:16 pm
Quote:

I'll use future excerpts of Juan Cole as they are posted here to make my point that Juan Cole is bigoted against conservatives, who honor the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution as amended, and do not honor misquotes or misinterpretations of either.


This is a straight-up lie.

Bush's administration, a Conservative administration supported by the Conservative party here in America, is currently breaking the law. Specifically, they are breaking the FISA laws as well as the 4th amendment. This gives the lie to your claim that Conservatives 'honor' the Constitution; you only do so until it becomes inconvenient for you to do so.

The problem for you fellows is that reality itself is bigoted against your position.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 03:30 pm
Cyclo: The problem for you fellows is that reality itself is bigoted against your position.


Love that line! LOL
0 Replies
 
 

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