9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 03:35 pm
McT, The US embassy in Iraq will be an empty shell like the brains of those who planned it.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 04:04 pm
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 04:12 pm
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Mmm hmm. How dare these people protest against being assigned to a war zone!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 04:22 pm
Maybe ican will volunteer. LOL
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 05:55 pm
With friends like these

The House of Saud may insist they're allies against fanaticism, but the reality is much more disturbing

Jason Burke
Wednesday October 31, 2007
The Guardian


In the spring of 2003, local imams in northern Iraq were worried. Not just about the impending war, but about the inroads that ultra-conservative, intolerant and aggressive strands of Islam were making among their traditionally moderate congregations. The enemy in this particular struggle was not Saddam, they said, but Saudi Arabia.

Since the Kurdish regions had established a de facto autonomy in the wake of the first Gulf war, the imam at the main mosque in Sulaymaniyah explained, hundreds of mosques had been built by Saudi Arabian religious foundations, their ultra-conservative imams imported from the Arabian peninsula. He and his fellow clerics simply did not have the means to compete with the massive aid being distributed by Saudi-based charitable organisations - aid contingent on attendance at special Qur'anic lessons, on wives or sisters wearing a veil and leaving secular political parties. Most damaging of all, he said, was the flood of pamphlets and books that pushed a worldview in which Jews, Christians, Shias and the west were cast as Muslims' sworn enemies.

The rolling hills and grassy plains of Kurdistan are a long way from Whitehall, the Mall and the trappings of a state visit. Yet they ought not to be so far from the thoughts of the various dignitaries warmly shaking the hands of the Saudi royals than they no doubt are.

What I heard in Sulaymaniyah should surprise no one. For many decades, Saudi Arabia has used its prodigious profits from oil not just to buy off domestic dissent but to fund the export around the world of one of the most conservative, rigorous and intolerant strains of Islam.

The origins of Saudi Arabia lie in an alliance between a tribal chief, Muhammad Ibn Al-Saud, and a fiery revivalist theologian and preacher, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahab. The former needed fired-up, holy warriors to weld together a state. The latter needed shelter and a logistic base. When the new nation of Saudi Arabia solidified after two centuries of on-off conflict that deal was translated into a new arrangement by which the House of Saud kept secular power but al-Wahab's followers had a free religious hand. In foreign policy, the goal of disseminating Wahabism throughout the Islamic world has coincided perfectly with more secular aims such as countering the influence of Arab nationalism, revolutionary Shia, Iran and communism or, more recently, of extending influence into Africa, Asia and Europe.

In Britain, a struggle between religious doctrines has gripped immigrant communities, sharpened by propaganda bankrolled out of the Arabian peninsula. We have also suffered individuals educated in Saudi universities such as Sheikh Faisal, who was imprisoned for his anti-semitic and anti-western comments, and Omar Bakri Muhammad, the leader of the al-Muhajiroun group, whose members have been linked to militant activities ranging from jihadi fund-raising to suicide bombing. Bakri told me proudly, if somewhat bizarrely, that he was a "hardcore Wahabi" as we sat on Richard and Judy's green room sofa.

It would be wrong to go too far. The Saudis have made some reforms of school and university curriculum, have tightened up monitoring of funding and have attempted to co-opt radical local clerics. Others have been imprisoned. There is an innovative rehabilitation programme.

But the impression remains that the House of Saud has one strategic message for internal consumption, one for the west and one for the broader international Muslim community. And though the Saudis insist they are allies against intolerance, fanaticism and prejudice, for the moment it is understandable if the Kurdish clerics and millions of others who follow centuries-old moderate traditions of Islam remain unconvinced.

ยท Jason Burke is the author of Al-Qaeda: the True Story of Radical Islam
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2202156,00.html
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:31 pm
It appears the situation in Iraq is thus;

Basra and its oil is outside of the control of the Iraqi government. Warring Shiite militias dominate the region.

Northern Iraq is outside of the control of the Iraqi government. Kurdish militias control the northern pipelines and are waiting to expand to the southwest and take over Kirkuk.

So we have, as one person said, Maliki being nothing more than the Mayor of the Green Zone and General Odierno his sherif.

But the Surge is working so we're winning!!!

Now we can attack Iran, the second axis of evil.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:41 pm
The "axis" includes North Korea. I wonder if the Bush gang has planned anything like a bombing campaign on the NKs? Makes as much sense of our attack on Iraq and the planning on Iran. Just the rhetoric on NK is missing.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:44 pm
I think Bush has pretty much forgot about North Korea. Iran is his next target.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:56 pm
xingu wrote:
I think Bush has pretty much forgot about North Korea. Iran is his next target.

Naaaa! Crawford, Texas is Bush's next target.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:59 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Maybe ican will volunteer. LOL

They turned me down! Crying or Very sad Said I wasn't diplomatic enough. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 08:13 pm
I can understand why.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 08:12 am
Baghdad violence, U.S. deaths hit new lows for year
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 08:17 am
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Quote:
The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


Juan Cole
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 11:01 am
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Quote:
The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


Juan Cole

Juan Cole's bigotry against the right is well established. He openly scorns all conservatives who advocate: all humans are endowed by God with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; and, humans forfeit those rights they deny others, including one's liberty to lawfully earn and possess more property than some, and lawfully earn and possess less property than others.

Diplomacy alone will generally work between states seeking mutually agreeable agreements. Diplomacy alone generally does not work when negotiating with tyrants or suicidal mass murderers. Generally, diplomacy with tyrants and suicidal mass murderers works only when accompanied by the threat or use of force
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 02:04 pm
ican711nm wrote:
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Quote:
The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


Juan Cole

Juan Cole's bigotry against the right is well established. He openly scorns all conservatives who advocate: all humans are endowed by God with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; and, humans forfeit those rights they deny others, including one's liberty to lawfully earn and possess more property than some, and lawfully earn and possess less property than others.

Diplomacy alone will generally work between states seeking mutually agreeable agreements. Diplomacy alone generally does not work when negotiating with tyrants or suicidal mass murderers. Generally, diplomacy with tyrants and suicidal mass murderers works only when accompanied by the threat or use of force


Ican you speak in hyperboles which has the effect of negating any points you may (miracles do happen) make.

Can you back up any of those claims you made in regards to Juan Cole with quotes to prove the specific statements you made? I seriously doubt it in which case your entire point about Juan Cole is useless.

I agree diplomacy in Iraq will not work; Iraqis themselves have to want to come together and decide on their own to lay down their arms against each other. An outside military solution will only bring about an occupied state. The Iraqis themselves turned against AQ (what little AQ there was in Iraq) and they will have to do the rest themselves too becauase only they can. It is past time for us to get out and now that things are improving; we have no excuse not to. If we say we have stay too keep things going better; well, that can always be said and then we can never leave. If things get worse even while we are there and with this surge going on; it will be proof that we can't fix Iraq no matter how long we stay. Either way; we should go home and let them try to put they're country back together in any manner they see fit.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 02:49 pm
More on the need to pressure Congress to close the US embassy in Baghdad (see below). First, here is some correspondence:

Quote:
'As a retired foreign service officer . . . at the State Department in Washington, I would like to add to your rationale for closing the US Embassy in Bagdad to save lives. In addition to the extreme danger involved, many of us would not go to Iraq because there is virtually nothing we can accomplish there. We could have no contact with ordinary Iraqis and would put our professional contacts or, for example, potential cultural exchange grantees, in great danger, simply by virtue of being seen with us, working with us, or participating in our programs. Unless some minimum level of security is established, we would be unable to achieve any worthwhile results, while causing great harm to cooperating Iraqis and their families--putting our own lives as risk for activities that would in the end likely prove useless and even shameful. I prefer not to go online, but wanted to share this with you. Keep up the good work. '


From ican's favorite source of information;

JUAN COLE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 02:56 pm
xingu, That's too funny for words. Wink
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 03:08 pm
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.


I hope those who protested decide to resign. The US Department of State badly needs a cleaning!


Quote:
The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


Juan Cole

Juan Cole's bigotry against the right is well established. He openly scorns all conservatives who advocate: all humans are endowed by God with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; and, humans forfeit those rights they deny others, including one's liberty to lawfully earn and possess more property than some, and lawfully earn and possess less property than others.

Diplomacy alone will generally work between states seeking mutually agreeable agreements. Diplomacy alone generally does not work when negotiating with tyrants or suicidal mass murderers. Generally, diplomacy with tyrants and suicidal mass murderers works only when accompanied by the threat or use of force


Ican you speak in hyperboles which has the effect of negating any points you may (miracles do happen) make.

Can you back up any of those claims you made in regards to Juan Cole with quotes to prove the specific statements you made? I seriously doubt it in which case your entire point about Juan Cole is useless.

I agree diplomacy in Iraq will not work; Iraqis themselves have to want to come together and decide on their own to lay down their arms against each other. An outside military solution will only bring about an occupied state. The Iraqis themselves turned against AQ (what little AQ there was in Iraq) and they will have to do the rest themselves too becauase only they can. It is past time for us to get out and now that things are improving; we have no excuse not to. If we say we have stay too keep things going better; well, that can always be said and then we can never leave. If things get worse even while we are there and with this surge going on; it will be proof that we can't fix Iraq no matter how long we stay. Either way; we should go home and let them try to put they're country back together in any manner they see fit.

I'll use future excerpts of Juan Cole as they are posted here to make my point that Juan Cole is bigoted against conservatives, who honor the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution as amended, and do not honor misquotes or misinterpretations of either.

So far the surge has led to the gradual reduction of the violent death rate in Iraq. The question I think worth debating is: to what point must the Iraq violent death rate be reduced for how long, before it would be sensible for the US military to leave Iraq?

I recommended that we stay until the Iraq violent death rate is reduced below an average of 30 per day, before we start to end the surge, and it remains below 30, until our troops are removed, and it remains below 30 for a year thereafter.

I infer that you think that death rate--currently below 50--is low enough to warrant our leaving now.

I also think our presence in Iraq is helping reduce that violent death rate, and if we were to leave prematurely, that violent death rate would surge again.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 03:16 pm
Quote:

I'll use future excerpts of Juan Cole as they are posted here to make my point that Juan Cole is bigoted against conservatives, who honor the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution as amended, and do not honor misquotes or misinterpretations of either.


This is a straight-up lie.

Bush's administration, a Conservative administration supported by the Conservative party here in America, is currently breaking the law. Specifically, they are breaking the FISA laws as well as the 4th amendment. This gives the lie to your claim that Conservatives 'honor' the Constitution; you only do so until it becomes inconvenient for you to do so.

The problem for you fellows is that reality itself is bigoted against your position.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2007 03:30 pm
Cyclo: The problem for you fellows is that reality itself is bigoted against your position.


Love that line! LOL
0 Replies
 
 

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