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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2007 03:07 pm
Quote:
Now we are giving them not only massive resistance we are giving them smarter resistance. They are now shrinking.


You are incorrect. Our resistance to AQ is dumber then ever, not smarter. I would like to see your evidence that AQ is shrinking, as well, as most reports, many by the US gov't, show this to be the exact opposite of the case.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2007 03:12 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican: What you so far appear incapable of comprehending or facing, is that they are nonetheless determined to try and do what they say. Because of that, in their failure to succeed to achieve what they want, they will murder millions if we let them. Just like we let the insane Nazis mass murder millions before we finally stopped them from mass murdering more millions.

ican, You are insane to think AQ is anything like Nazi Germany! Millions? Your imagination is also insane.

I do not think al-Qaeda now is anything like Nazi Germany. You are insane if you think I do. But they are like the Nazi mass murderers in that they also mass murder.

I think without our competent and timely effort to destroy them, al-Qaeda is capable of growing to a point where they are far more destructive of Americans and America than they have been to date..
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2007 04:29 pm
revel wrote:
Quote:
Yes, the Whitehouse admitted in July those documents were frauds. No, the Whitehouse did not admit that it knew they were frauds at the time the Whitehouse cited those documents. You have not provided any evidence that the Whitehouse did know those documents were frauds at the time the Whitehouse cited those documents.


I refer you to this Chairman Waxman on the 16 Words They should have known, I suggest they did know and are simply lying about not knowing. It is not credible that they would not know.

As for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi; he was not AQ before the invasion and only styled himself and joined himself to AQ after the invasion in 2004. Once again he was in the part of the Iraq under our own control. Saddam even tried to get rid of him so he was not harboring him. Bush chose not to get rid of him because it would have messed up his case for war. There was no corabitive relationship between Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and saddam hussien before the invasion.

Profile: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

Avoiding attacking suspected terrorist mastermind

Iraq's Alleged Al-Qaeda Ties Were Disputed Before War

Now there is a few AQ in Iraq; however, they are a small number. Most of the insurgents are disgruntled Sunnis. It is the Sunis and Shiites who are fighting. Plus the Kurds. They are the main worry in Iraq at the present time. Save yourself the typing because I know your response and I disagree.

So your mind is made up and you don't want to be disturbed by the facts!

Your links are to articles that are opinion pieces that reference other opinion pieces that cite what the writers want to believe. They apparently believe: "... Abu Musab al-Zarqawi; ... was not AQ before the invasion and only styled himself and joined himself to AQ after the invasion in 2004."

Malarky!

I trust my evidence sources! None of these sources are merely writers of opinion.

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 09/08/2006, wrote:
Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq

Wikipedia wrote:
Ansar al-Islam was formed in December 2001
...
Ansar al-Islam comprised about 300 armed men, many of these veterans from the Afghan war, and a proportion being neither Kurd nor Arab. Ansar al-Islam is alleged to be connected to al-Qaeda, and provided an entry point for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other Afghan veterans to enter Iraq.

Powell, February 5, 2003, wrote:
When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish another poison and explosive training center camp, and this camp is located in northeastern Iraq.
...

General Franks, describing the Iraq invasion he led in March 2003, wrote:
... a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2007 04:49 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Now we are giving them not only massive resistance we are giving them smarter resistance. They are now shrinking.


You are incorrect. Our resistance to AQ is dumber then ever, not smarter. I would like to see your evidence that AQ is shrinking, as well, as most reports, many by the US gov't, show this to be the exact opposite of the case.

Cycloptichorn

I am correct!

These statistics assembled by Michael O'Hanlon and Jason Campbell
Brookings Institute
Published Tuesday, September 4, 2007
New York Times Op-ed

These statistics republished in the Wall Street Journal editorial, The Measure of Progress
Friday, September 7, 2007

FACTS ABOUT IRAQ IN THE MONTH OF AUGUST:

Number of multiple fatality suicide bombings:
2006 = 52
2007 = 30

Number of daily attacks by insurgents and malitias:
2006 = 160
2007 = 120

Number of prisoners being held by the U.S. and Iraq:
2006 = 27,000
2007 = 60,000

Number of of Iraqi security forces:
2006 = 298,000
2007 = 360,000

Quote:
IBC's Count of Violent Civilian Deaths in Iraq since 1/1/2003
iraq body count as of 07/31/2007

MONTHLY UPDATE OF THE MASS MURDER OF NON-MURDERERS IN IRAQ

............................... Monthly ........... Accumulated Total since
............................... Totals .............. January 1st 2003 ...........
December 2005 ............ ------ ..................... 36,859
January 2006 ............... 1,267 .................... 38,126
February 2006 .............. 1,287 .................... 39,413
March 2006 .................. 1,538 .................... 40,951
April 2006 .................... 1,287.................... 42,238
May 2006 ..................... 1,417 .................... 43,655
June 2006 ..................... 2,089 .................... 45,744
July 2006 ...................... 2,336 .................... 48,080
August 2006 ................ 1,195 .................... 49,275
September 2006 .......... 1,407..................... 50,682
October 2006 .............. 2,546 ..................... 53,228
November 2006 .......... 3,894 ..................... 57,122
December 2006 .......... 3,219 ..................... 60,341
January 2007 .............. 2,557 ..................... 62,898
February 2007 ............. 2,514 ..................... 65,412
March 2007 .....…......... 2,720 .................... 68,132
April 2007 .…....…........ 2,359..........…........ 70,491
May 2007 .......…......... 3,755 ......…............ 74,246
………… Surge now fully operational ………...
June 2007 .......…......... 2,386 .........…......... 76,632
July 2007 ..........…....... 2,077 .....…............. 78,709

August 2007 ................ Question .......…........... Question
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 07:39 am
Quote:
Barely a quarter of Iraqis say their security has improved in the past six months, a negative assessment of the surge in U.S. forces that reflects worsening public attitudes across a range of measures, even as authorities report some progress curtailing violence.

Apart from a few scattered gains, a new national survey by ABC News, the BBC and the Japanese broadcaster NHK finds deepening dissatisfaction with conditions in Iraq, lower ratings for the national government and growing rejection of the U.S. role there.

More Iraqis say security in their local area has gotten worse in the last six months than say it's gotten better, 31 percent to 24 percent, with the rest reporting no change. Far more, six in 10, say security in the country overall has worsened since the surge began, while just one in 10 sees improvement.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/abcpresenceiraq.GIF

More directly assessing the surge itself - a measure that necessarily includes views of the United States, which are highly negative - 65 to 70 percent of Iraqis say it's worsened rather than improved security, political stability and the pace of redevelopment alike.

There are some improvements, but they're sparse and inconsistent. Thirty-eight percent in Anbar province, a focal point of the surge, now rate local security positively; none did so six months ago. In Baghdad fewer now describe themselves as feeling completely unsafe in their own neighborhoods - 58 percent, down from 84 percent. Yet other assessments of security in these locales have not improved, nor has the view nationally.

Overall, 41 percent report security as their greatest personal problem, down seven points from 48 percent in March. But there's been essentially no change in the number who call it the nation's top problem (56 percent, with an additional 28 percent citing political or military issues). And there are other problems aplenty to sour the public's outlook - lack of jobs, poor power and fuel supply, poor medical services and many more.

BIG PICTURE - The big picture remains bleak. Six in 10 Iraqis say their own lives are going badly, and even more, 78 percent, say things are going badly for the country overall - up 13 points from last winter. Expectations have crumbled; just 23 percent see improvement for Iraq in the year ahead, down from 40 percent last winter and 69 percent
in November 2005.


source

(The rest of the 34 page poll is at the source.)

The only reason I have been leaning towards staying (in my view) was because I felt that since we casued the violence happening in Iraq by our invasion and failing to get a handle on things early on, we should stay to help protect those Iraqis who are in the crossfires of all this bloodshed. The articles I have been reading lately have led me to think most Iraqis feared that if we left they would be in even more danger. According to this; it seems it is not the case.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 09:51 am
revel, There have been reports from last year that the majority of Iraqis wanted us to leave. With all the mixed messages we are bombarded with, it's easy to see how anyone can get the wrong impression.

During that interim, we now find that the majority of Iraqis approve of killing American soldiers while Bush and his supporters ignore the reality on the ground. They've been using the word "progress" ad nauseum since the war began, and why some people still believe what Bush says is a mystery - at least to me. Bush has never articulated what "success" means, and how long it'll take to meet his idea of "success." It's now been over 4.5 years; longer than WWII, and we still don't see any "progress." What is our congress waiting for?

Then there's today's report:


Bush: More GIs to fill Iraq support role
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 10:03 am
revel wrote:

...

The only reason I have been leaning towards staying (in my view) was because I felt that since we casued the violence happening in Iraq by our invasion and failing to get a handle on things early on, we should stay to help protect those Iraqis who are in the crossfires of all this bloodshed. The articles I have been reading lately have led me to think most Iraqis feared that if we left they would be in even more danger. According to this; it seems it is not the case.

The only Iraq poll I trust is a poll of the Iraq Parliament. When a majority says leave, we must leave.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 10:40 am
cicerone imposter wrote:

...
Bush has never articulated what "success" means, and how long it'll take to meet his idea of "success." It's now been over 4.5 years; longer than WWII, and we still don't see any "progress." What is our congress waiting for?

...

Malarkey!

Bush has multiple times articulated what success in Iraq means:
al-Qaeda removed from Iraq; and, Iraq government adequately defends the Iraq people.

The Iraq war lasted less than a month and a half. The Iraq occupation has so far lasted only 4 years, 4 months, and 15 days.

The American Revolutionary War lasted from July 1776 (when Americans declared their independence) to July 1783 (when the American government signed its peace treaty with Britain in Paris). That's 7 years, not 4.5 years. It lasted as long as 7 years even though some Americans were not also fighting among themselves like some Iraqis are. I think we ought to be at least as patient with the Iraqi people and their government as was France--then America's major ally--with the American people and their government.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 10:45 am
ican wrote :

Quote:
The only Iraq poll I trust is a poll of the Iraq Parliament. When a majority says leave, we must leave.


i wonder if ican is suggesting that the iraqi government that is being called "dysfunctional" by the U.S. GAO represents the will and opinion of the iraqi people ?
btw about two million iraqis have already left iraq and thousands more are leaving every day - they must all be very satisfied with their government , i assume .
hbg


Quote:
The set of 18 political and military goals for Iraq were set by Congress, which asked the GAO to inquire whether they had been met.

Its report issued on Tuesday said Iraq had failed to live up to key targets on reducing sectarian violence and passing laws on oil revenue sharing.

It says militias are still active and the performance of the US-backed Iraqi government has been poor.

"Significant progress has not been made in improving the living conditions of the Iraqis on a day-to-day basis with regard to things that all citizens care about - safe streets, clean water, reliable electricity, a variety of other basic things," GAO head David Walker said.

"The government is dysfunctional," he added.


is it possible that someone still believes that the iraqi government is funnctioning at all ?


complete report :
IRAQ'S DYSFUNCTIONAL GOVERNMENT
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 11:31 am
hamburger wrote:
ican wrote :

Quote:
The only Iraq poll I trust is a poll of the Iraq Parliament. When a majority says leave, we must leave.


i wonder if ican is suggesting that the iraqi government that is being called "dysfunctional" by the U.S. GAO represents the will and opinion of the iraqi people ?

I am alleging that the Iraq government represents the will of the Iraqi people better than polls of samples of Iraqi people.

Clearly the Iraqi people are disgusted with their government's current performance. Clearly they want their government's performance to substantially improve.

What is not clear to me from the poll questions--and the poll sampling techniques--is whether or not a majority of the Iraqi people, not only a majority of those polled, want the USA to leave Iraq under current conditions, or whether they want the USA to improve current conditions first and then leave.

So why don't the polls ask these two simple YES or NO questions?

(1) Do you want the USA to leave Iraq under current conditions? [YES] [NO]

(2) Do you want the USA to improve current conditions first and then leave? [YES] [NO]
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 11:44 am
hamburger wrote:

...
is it possible that someone still believes that the iraqi government is funnctioning at all ?
...


Yes I believe the Iraqi government is functioning some and will come to function much more when the number of violent deaths per month in Iraq become consistently less than 1,000 per month.

The Iraqi government met 3 out 18 benchmarks. It partially met 3 others.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 11:55 am
Quote:
'You Have Liberated a People'
By FOUAD AJAMI
September 10, 2007; Page A15 Wall Street Journal

Iraq

"We liberated the Anbar, we defeated al Qaeda by denying it religious
cover," Sheikh Abdul Sattar Abu Reisha said with a touch of pride and
impatience. This is the dashing tribal leader who has emerged as the
face of the new Sunni accommodation with American power. I had not
been ready for his youth (born in 1971), nor for his flamboyance. Sir
David Lean, the legendary director of "Lawrence of Arabia," would have
savored encountering this man. There is style, and an awareness of it,
in Abu Reisha: his brown abaya bordered with gold thread, a neat white
dishdasha, and a matching head-dress. "Our American friends had not
understood us when they came, they were proud, stubborn people and so
were we. They worked with the opportunists, now they have turned to
the tribes, and this is as it should be. The tribes hate religious
parties and religious fakers."

We were in Baghdad, and the sheikh gave me his narrative. There was
both candor and evasion in the story he told. Al Qaeda and its Arab
jihadists had found sanctuary and support in the Anbar; they had
recruited the "criminal elements" and the "lowly," they had brought
zeal and bigotry unknown to the Iraqis. Initially welcomed, they began
to impose their own tyranny. They declared haram (impermissible) the
normal range of social life. They banned cigarettes, they married the
daughters of decent families without the permission of their elders.
They violated the great code of decent society by "shedding the blood
of travelers on routine voyages." The prayer leaders of mosques were
bullied, then murdered.

Abu Reisha and a small group of like-minded men, he said, came
together to challenge al Qaeda. "We fought with our own weapons. I
myself fought al Qaeda with my own funds. The Americans were slow to
understand our sahwa, our awakening. But they have come around of
late. The Americans are innocent; they don't know Iraq. But all this
is in the past, and now the Americans have a wise and able military
commander on the scene, and the people of the Anbar have found their
way. In the Anbar, they now know that the menace comes from Iran, not
from the Americans."

Abu Reisha spoke of the guile of the Iranians: They have schemes over
the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala, he said. He said the Anbar was
in need of money, that its infrastructure was shattered. He welcomed a
grant of $70 million given the Anbar by the government, and was sure
that more was on the way.

An Iraqi in the know, unsentimental about his country's ways, sought
to play down the cult of Abu Reisha. American soldiers, he said, won
the war for the Anbar, but it was better to put an Iraq kafiyyah than
an American helmet on the victory. He dismissed Abu Reisha. He was
useful, he said, but should not be romanticized. "No doubt he was
shooting at Americans not so long ago, but the tide has turned, and
Abu Reisha knew how to reach an accommodation with the real order of
power. The truth is that the Sunnis launched this war four years ago, and have been defeated. The tribes
never win wars, they only join the winners."

Four months ago, I had seen the Sunni despondency, their recognition
of the tragedy that had befallen them in Baghdad. That despondency had
deepened in the intervening period. No Arab cavalry had ridden to
their rescue, no brigades had turned up from the Arabian Peninsula or
from Jordan, and the Egyptians were far away. Reality in Iraq had not
waited on the Arabs. The Sunnis of Iraq must now fully grasp that they
are on their own. They had relied on the dictatorship, and on the
Baath, and these are now gone; there had, of course, been that brief
bet on al Qaeda and on the Arab regimes, and it had come to naught.

The one Baghdad politician with the authority, and the place in the
pecking order, who could pull the Sunnis back from the precipice is
Vice President Tariq Hashemi. There is a parlor game in the Green
Zone, and back in Washington, that focuses on Mr. Hashemi. He is at
once in the circle of power, and outside of it, simultaneously a man
of authority and of the opposition to this new order. He is a leader
of the Islamic Party, and a former colonel in the armed forces. He
flirts with the government, promising to stand by it, then steps back
form it. His caution is understandable: Three of his siblings have
been lost to the terror. He is a man of great polish, his English
impeccable. There is an aristocratic
bearing to him.

He would not call the government sectarian, "I am a man of this
government," he said, when I called on him in a villa that reflected
the elegance of the man himself. He questioned the government's
"performance" and its skill. He pointed to the isolation of the
government in the region as evidence of its inability to rule. "I
don't question the right of this government to rule. I know I am in
the minority in Parliament, I know that they have the largest bloc in
our legislature. But ability is an altogether different matter. A more
able government would reach an accommodation with Syria, with the
other Arab governments and with Turkey. The Syrians may harbor
fantasies about the return of the Baathists to power in Baghdad, but
they are eager for the benefits of trade and commerce, and their
enmity could be eased."

It is late in the hour for the Sunni Arabs, but the age of the
supremacists among them has passed. There is realism in Mr. Hashemi,
and a knowledge of the ways of the world. Baghdad's Sunnis need him,
if only because their crisis is deeper than that of the Sunnis of the
Anbar.

The loss of Iraq to the Persians is a scarecrow. A great, historic
question has been raised by Iraq: Can the Shiite Arabs govern, or are
they born and eternal oppositionists? For a man at the center of this
great dispute, for the storm swirling around him and the endless
predictions of his imminent ouster from power, there is an unhurried
quality about Nouri al-Maliki. There is poise and deliberateness in him. The long years in
exile must account for the patience. He had waited long for the
deliverance of his people; the time in Syrian exile must have been
dreary.

The Daawa Party had been the quintessential movement of the
underground, it had suffered grievously, and sons and brothers of
"martyrs" fill its ranks. The men arrayed around Mr. Maliki are
resigned to their isolation in the Arab constellation of power. They
had been forged by a history of disinheritance. Mr. Maliki is not
"America's man in Iraq." He had not been part of the
American-sponsored opposition groups prior to the war of
liberation. He is a man of the Shiite heartland; his peers in the
Shiite political class are men of Baghdad, familiar with Western
languages and ways. He is through and through a man of his culture,
his Arabic exquisite and melodic. He takes in stride the sorts of
things said about him by American officials and legislators. He is
keenly aware of the debt owed America by his country -- and by his own
community, to be exact.

"We may differ with our American friends about tactics, I might not
see eye to eye with them on all matters. But my message to them is one
of appreciation and gratitude," he said. "To them I say, you have
liberated a people, brought them into the modern world. They used to
live in fear and now they live in liberty. Iraqis were cut off from
the modern world, and thanks to American intervention we now belong to
the world around us. We used to be decimated and killed like locusts
in Saddam's endless wars, and we have now come into the light. A
teacher used to work for $2 a month, now there is a living wage, and
indeed in some sectors of our economy, we are suffering from labor
shortages."

Though Mr. Maliki had come to power with the support of Moqtada
al-Sadr's bloc of deputies in the parliament, he has given a green
light for major operations against the Mahdi Army. He walks a fine,
thin line between the American military and civilian authorities, and
the broad Shiite coalition that sustains him. There is stoicism in him
about the dysfunctional cabinet over which he presides; its membership
was dictated by the political parties that had picked the ministers.
Three groups of ministers had suspended their participation in the
work of the government. He would not be bullied, he said, he had lists
of highly qualified technocrats eager to take part in a new cabinet;
he would stick it out.

"I don't believe that there is a military solution for our conflicts;
we have to rehabilitate the troublemakers. We don't arrest Baathists
solely because they are Baathists, and the same must hold for those
who belong to the Mahdi Army," Mr. Maliki said.

He had courted the notables of the Anbar, he didn't say, but I had
been told that heavy subsidies had been made by his government to the
Anbar tribal leaders; he had gone to the Anbar with substantial sums
that had been paid to the sheikhs. But he looks with a jaundiced eye
on arming Sunni "volunteers." He dreads this, and says that this would
be a disaster: "We will have come out of a hole only to descend into a
deep well." National reconciliation -- the sword of Damocles held over
his head by his American detractors -- is not easy in a country
"without a history of dialogue and give-and-take. This may require two
or three years. Grant us time, and you will be proud of what you have
helped bring forth here."

The historical dilemma of his country was there for everyone to see:
"For the Kurds, this is the time of taking, for the Shiite, this is
the time of restitution, for the Sunnis this is the time of loss. But
ours is one country, and it will have to be shared."

Mr. Maliki recoils from the charge that his is a sectarian
government; he notes with satisfaction that Gen. David Petraeus had
exonerated the government of that charge. The Mahdi Army had won the
war for Baghdad. This has had the paradoxical and beneficial outcome
of making that militia unneeded and parasitical. It has given this
government a measure of independence from the Sadrists.

"Historically we are winning." The words were those of Vice President
Adel Abdul Mahdi. This is a scion of Baghdad Shiite aristocracy, at
ease with French and English, a man whose odyssey had taken him from
Marxism to the Baath, then finally to the Islamism of the Supreme
Islamic Council. "We came from under the ashes, and now the new order,
this new Iraq, is taking hold. If we were losing, why would the
insurgents be joining us?" He had nothing but praise for the effort
that had secured the peace of Baghdad: "Petraeus can defend the
surge," he said. "He can show the 'red zones' of conflict receding,
and the spread of the 'blue zones' of peace. Six months ago, you could
not venture into the Anbar, now you can walk its streets in peace.
There is a Sunni problem in the country which requires a Shiite
initiative. The Sunni problem is power, plain and simple. Sunni
society grew addicted to power, and now it has to make this painful
adjustment."

Mr. Mahdi was not apologetic about what Iraq offers the United States
by way of justification for the blood and treasure and the sacrifice:
"Little more than two decades ago, in the aftermath of the Iranian
Revolution and the Lebanon War of 1982, the American position in this
region was exposed and endangered. Look around you today: Everyone
seeks American protection and patronage. The line was held in Iraq;
perhaps America was overly sanguine about the course of things in
Iraq. But that initial optimism now behind us, the war has been an
American victory. All in the region are romancing the Americans, even
Syria and Iran in their own way."

For the Sunni-ruled states in the region, he counseled an acceptance
of the new Iraq. He looked with pride on his country, and on his city.
He saw beyond Baghdad's daily grief. "Baghdad is the heart of the Arab
world, this was the hothouse of Arab philosophy and science and
literature."

Peace has not come to Iraq, the feuds have not fully burned out, but
the center holds. The best of Iraq's technocrats, deputy prime
minister Barham Saleh, spoke of the new economic vitality of the
provinces, of the recovery of regions once lost to darkness and
terror. I brought back with me from Iraq a reminder that life renews
in that land.

I attended the judicial tribunal that is investigating the crimes of
Saddam Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid, better know as Chemical
Ali, and 14 other defendants being tried for deeds they committed back
in 1991, in the aftermath of the first American war against Saddam
Hussein. Chemical Ali had been one of the most dreaded "roosters" of
the regime, a haughty killer. His attire was either Western suits or
military uniforms. On the afternoon I went to watch his trial, he had
shuffled in, leaning on a cane, all dressed in the traditional Arab
way. The courtroom setting was one of immense decorum: a five-member
panel of judges in their robes, the defense team on one side, the
prosecutors on the other.

A lone witness, his face hidden from view behind a simple curtain,
told of the cruelty he had seen a generation ago. He told of Chemical
Ali executing people point-blank, after three Baathist women singled
them out; he told of the burial of the victims on the grounds of a
vocational school. He stood firm, the simple witness, when Chemical
Ali tried to bully and ridicule him. He had no doubt about the memory
of that day. He recalled Chemical Ali, he said, in his olive military
uniform, and he correctly identified the rank of Chemical Ali. A
policeman distributed bottled water to the defendants who once
literally owned and disposed of the fate of this country. They were
now being given the justice denied their victims.

In our fashion, we have our very American "metrics" and "benchmarks"
with which we judge this war and the order in Iraq we had midwifed.
For the war's critics, there can be no redemption of this war, and no
faith that Iraq's soil could bring forth anything decent or humane.
Today two men of extraordinary talent and devotion, our military
commander and our ambassador, will tell of the country they know so
well. Doubtless, they will tell of accomplishments and heartbreak. We
should grant them -- and that distant country -- the hearing they
deserve.


Mr. Ajami teaches at Johns Hopkins University. He is author of "The
Foreigner's Gift: The Americans, the Arabs, and the Iraqis in Iraq,"
and is the recipient of the Bradley Prize.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2007 12:05 pm
Quote:
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 11:56 am
Gates urges veto of troop-rest measure
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 12:31 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:


...

Democrats pledged to push ahead with the

...

latest political clash over the future course of the war.

...

The DINOs and RINOs seem determined to undermine America's efforts to succeed in Iraq. Why? Do they actually believe their obstructionism is going to help them win elections in November 2008?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 01:05 pm
ican, You are ignorant; many GOP members of congress are separating themselves from Bush before the next elections. There's a good reason for that which escapes you. The majority of Americans see the Iraq war in negative terms.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 02:25 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, ... many GOP members of congress are separating themselves from Bush before the next elections. There's a good reason for that which escapes you. The majority of Americans see the Iraq war in negative terms.

Only the DINOs and RINOs see the Iraq war in exclusively negative terms.
The DINOs and RINOs are AINOs.
DINO = Democrat in Name Only
RINO = Republican in Name Only
AINOs = American in Name Only.

The majority of Americans do not want the USA military to leave Iraq until it succeeds in Iraq. The majority of Americans prefer that success to be achieved sooner rather than later. A majority of Americans understand that they have to persevere and not quit to get what they want.

The AINOs are not competent to properly manage troop assignments and allocations. They know this, but are nonetheless trying to manage troop assignments and allocations so as to cause our military to fail in Iraq. They know that if America is succeeding in Iraq by November 2008, few if any AINOs will be elected or re-elected.

Americas must succeed in Iraq in order to protect the security of Americans, regardless of any polls to the contrary, or any opinions of AINOs to the contrary.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 02:39 pm
Quote:
Men at Work,
Children at Play
The telling difference between General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker, and their congressional inquisitors.
by Frederick W. Kagan
and William Kristol
Weekly Standard
09/24/2007, Volume 013, Issue 02

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
--Mark Twain

This week, America heard about Iraq from two serious men, General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker. They understand Iraq in all its complexity. They have an astonishing mastery of the details of what's going on in almost every part of the country and an amazing grasp of virtually every aspect of a complex war, a multilayered society, and a new and fluid polity. They have clearly thought about the policy options before us with a seriousness appropriate to individuals who, every day, exercise considerable authority and bear great responsibilities. Last week, they were able, despite the comparative shallowness and guile of their questioners, to explain the choices we face with clarity and honesty at a critical moment in our nation's history.

The congressional critics provided quite a contrast with Petraeus and Crocker. If the general and the ambassador were men at work, the congressmen and senators were--with a few notable exceptions--children at play. They spoke almost entirely in generalizations--often months, sometimes years, out of date. They used selective quotations and cherry-picked facts to play "gotcha." They offered no meaningful proposals of their own. Petraeus and Crocker live and breathe Iraq, dealing with life-and-death problems seven days a week. Congress bloviates Tuesday through Thursday. That's one of the reasons to listen to the general and the ambassador rather than the congressional pontificators.

The contrast between those who know something about Iraq and those who don't continued with the president's speech on September 13. Bush described America's objectives in Iraq clearly, explained the strategy he is pursuing, outlined the progress that it has made in detail and in specific areas of Iraq, explained why he intends to continue that strategy with minor adjustments, and announced a conditions-based reduction of forces, which General Petraeus had recommended. In response, Senator Jack Reed spoke in the vaguest terms. He repeated the Democratic shibboleth that there has been no political progress in Iraq because the Iraqi government has not passed the benchmark legislation--ignoring the complex, nuanced, real-world discussion Petraeus and Crocker (and, yes, Bush) had offered about the different ways in which groups of citizens, local and provincial governments, and even the Maliki government have been able to make varying degrees of progress toward the goals the benchmark legislation is supposed to achieve. Reed also announced that the Democrats "have put forth a plan," which he then sketched in a few sentences. We would all like to know exactly what this Democratic plan is and when the Democrats intend to share it with the rest of us. We frankly doubt that a party whose leaders seem unable to discuss the war in Iraq in any but the simplest terms can develop a plan that will lead to anything other than disaster.

The speeches of September 13 highlighted another key problem in this discussion. Reed dismissed all the hard-won gains of our forces and our diplomats in Iraq with the assertion that the surge was intended to allow the Iraqi government time to pass benchmark legislation, which the Iraqis have failed to do. Ergo, he and other critics say, the surge has failed. But American forces are not in Iraq to enable the Iraqi parliament to have a nice-looking scorecard. As the president said in his speech, our primary objective in Iraq is to prevent al Qaeda from establishing a base there. We must also work, as the president said, to ensure that Iran does not "fill the vacuum." Establishing a stable, democratic Iraq would secure these objectives, in addition to being inherently desirable. But a productive legislative session of the Iraqi parliament is only a means to all these ends, and only one possible means.

By focusing entirely on the political problems in the Iraqi parliament, critics of the current strategy score polemical points by ignoring indisputable gains with respect to the core American objectives. Progress in recent months in Iraq has enhanced American security. Al Qaeda In Iraq has gone from near-ascendancy in 2006 to near-collapse in 2007. The reason Iran has dramatically increased its efforts to destabilize the elected, Shia-dominated government in Baghdad is that the Shia terrorists, too, have been set back, as American and Iraqi forces have done real damage to the Iranian-backed "secret cells" and death squads that are the agents of this destabilization. These are facts. But congressmen don't deal much with facts.
In his speech, President Bush announced his intention to reduce American forces in Iraq to pre-surge levels by mid-2008, if conditions permit. His critics have been quick to ridicule this announcement, since they reject the notion that there has been any progress in Iraq that might justify it. But they choose to miss the point. The size of American military forces in Iraq is not, and should not be, dependent on the status of legislation in the Iraqi parliament. It is dependent on the security situation on the ground--notably the ability of the Iraqis to maintain security themselves. Despite Democratic rhetoric to the contrary, security on the ground can improve without the passage of benchmark legislation. It has improved over the past few months. Petraeus and Bush know that, which is why they announced an intention to unwind the surge.

In choosing this plan for force reductions over the coming months, the president accepts greater risk than we would have preferred. His decision was clearly driven by valid concerns about the strain on the Army and Marines, and by the reasonable expectation that a continuation of current trends on the ground in Iraq will justify the reductions. But Iraq is a war, and the enemy gets a vote. Continued Iranian escalation could destabilize the south or Baghdad; Al Qaeda In Iraq could strike another lucky blow; and other unforeseen contingencies could arise over the next six months that might be manageable with 20 brigades but dangerous with 15.

At this point, the likeliest sources of most such contingencies lie outside of Iraq, with increased "accelerants" (as our commanders call them) of violence coming from Iran above all, but also from Syria and (indirectly) from Saudi Arabia. We cannot allow Iraq's neighbors a free hand at strengthening the forces of terror even as we work to subdue them. Restricting the ability of these outside accelerants to intervene in Iraq is the best way to mitigate the risks entailed in the announced drawdown. Given the drawdown, and given the emphasis General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker put on the damage done by these outside actors, especially Iran, in fanning the violence in Iraq, we expect that the Bush administration will now turn its attention more directly to this critical problem.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 02:41 pm
Quote:
Ready, Willing, and Able
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too.
by Thomas Donnelly
Weekly Standard
09/24/2007, Volume 013, Issue 02

In the wake of last week's Iraq-related developments in Washington, the strongest quasi-respectable argument available to Democrats who want to oppose President Bush and General Petraeus while sounding responsible is the claim that a troop drawdown larger than the one they propose is needed to "rebalance risk"--that is, that the surge in Iraq has made us more vulnerable elsewhere in the world.

This has long been a concern to more moderate Democrats, and Rep. Ike Skelton, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee (and father of an Army officer), reiterated the position in his prepared statement at the Petraeus-Crocker hearings. He asked whether "Iraq is the war worth the risk of breaking our Army and being unable to deal with other risks to our nation. . . . With so many troops in Iraq, I think our response to an unexpected threat would come at a devastating cost."

This argument is a version of the concerns voiced by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Army chief, Gen. George Casey--a point not missed by Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne, who wrote that "Democrats are now hoping concerned generals will support their case [for withdrawal], even if most Republicans won't." Indeed, the goal of driving a wedge between the military and the Bush administration has been a consistent strategy of the antiwar party. As Dionne puts it, "If withdrawing troops from Iraq is dangerous, failing to withdraw them may, in the long run, be even more dangerous." Fighting now compromises future readiness.

Yet the military logic behind this argument is weak. What are the "other risks to our nation" that are so "unexpected" and would exact such a "devastating cost"? It's a dangerous world and the risks are great, but our ability to respond is likewise great. Consider the threats the Pentagon regards as most real. A crisis across the Taiwan Strait or even a Chinese attack would call for the deployment of naval and air power--capabilities not much employed in Iraq. Suppose we collected "actionable" intelligence on Osama bin Laden's whereabouts. We'd launch air and missile strikes and perhaps a special operations raid. Again, not really a problem. Even a North Korean invasion would initially demand the strike power of naval and air forces in support of South Korea's large, well-equipped, and well-trained land forces.

In an emergency, we can even respond to the call for significant land forces. The "surged" force in Iraq of 160,000 represents only about 20 percent of active-duty Army and Marine strength, and less than 15 percent if one includes reserve and National Guard forces. It would be a struggle to make ready and to deploy another large land force--although those forces recovering from Iraq and in the reserves represent a superbly trained, equipped, experienced, and powerful force. But responding to even the most nightmarish surprise, such as a mass-destruction attack at home, is hardly impossible. We should remember that the strains of Iraq come from the length of the mission, not the surge.

The strategic logic of the "risk management" argument is similarly weak: It sharply underplays the negative consequences, in the Middle East and around the world, of a U.S. defeat in Iraq.

This is not the place to elaborate that argument fully, yet it's worth noting the insight of Andrew Krepinevich, director of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a former Army officer and author of the classic work The Army and Vietnam. A withdrawal from Iraq, he says, would not be like the American withdrawal from Saigon, but rather like the British evacuation from Dunkirk. In the context of the Cold War, the United States could retreat and recover from a loss in Vietnam without having to retake Saigon. But in World War II, strategic realities compelled the Allies to retake Western Europe from the Germans. It's hard to imagine a victory in "The Long War" against revolutionary Islam without success in Iraq. This grim logic is well understood by troops serving in Iraq, especially those who also fought in Desert Storm. We are fighting in Iraq, they often say, so our children won't have to.

For better or worse, it is and will be for quite a while the duty of America's land forces to fight the Long War. Of the three great security challenges of our time--the rise of China, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, and the dangers of revolutionary Islam--it is the third that requires of us strong land power capabilities. The way to manage the risks of this extended struggle is to rebuild and reshape our land forces to respond to the challenge.

While not all the battles of this war will be exactly like Iraq, the bitter experience of the last four years should serve as a reminder that we must adapt to the war as it is rather than pretend we have the option of fighting a war we would prefer. Nor should we pretend that there's something more important for U.S. ground troops to do. If they are ordered to retreat from this battle, their next battle is likely to be a lot harder.

Thomas Donnelly is resident fellow in defense and national security studies at the American Enterprise Institute.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2007 02:55 pm
Quote:
A 'Realistic Chance' of Success
By Charles Krauthammer
Washington Post
Friday, September 14, 2007; Page A13

As always, the inadvertent slip is the most telling. Discussing the performance of British troops, Gen. David Petraeus told Sen. Joe Biden of the Foreign Relations Committee that he'd be consulting with British colleagues in London on his way back "home." He had meant to say "Iraq," where he is now on his third tour of duty. Is there any other actor in Washington's Iraq war drama -- from Harry Reid to the Joint Chiefs -- who could have made such a substitution? Anyone who not only knows Iraq the way Petraeus does but feels it in all its gravity and complexity?

When asked about Shiite militia domination of southern Iraq, Petraeus patiently went through the four provinces, one by one, displaying a degree of knowledge of the local players, terrain and balance of power that no one in Washington -- and few in Iraq -- could match.

When Biden thought he had a gotcha -- contradictions between Petraeus's report on Iraqi violence and the less favorable one by the Government Accountability Office -- Petraeus calmly pointed out that the GAO had to cut its data-gathering five weeks short to meet reporting requirements to Congress. And since those most recent five weeks had been particularly productive for the coalition, the GAO numbers were not only outdated but misleading.

For all the attempts by Democrats and the antiwar movement to discredit Petraeus, he won the congressional confrontation hands down. He demonstrated enough military progress from his new counterinsurgency strategy to conclude: "I believe we have a realistic chance of achieving our objectives in Iraq."

The American people are not antiwar. They are anti-losing. Which means they are also anti-drift. Adrift is where we were during most of 2006 -- the annus horribilis initiated by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's bringing down the Golden Mosque in Samarra -- until the new counterinsurgency strategy of 2007 (the "surge") reversed the trajectory of the war.

It was being lost both in Iraq and at home. On the home front, Petraeus deftly deflated the rush to withdrawal that appeared poised to acquire irresistible momentum this summer. First, by demonstrating real and irrefutable territorial gains on the ground. Second, by proposing minor immediate withdrawals to be followed by fully liquidating the "surge" by next summer. Those withdrawals should be enough to hold the wobbly Republican senators. And perhaps even more important, the Pentagon brass.

The service chiefs no longer fight wars. That's now left to theater commanders such as Petraeus. The chiefs' job is to raise armies -- to recruit, train, equip and manage. Petraeus's job is to use their armies to win wars. The chiefs are quite reasonably concerned about the enormous strain put on their worldwide forces by the tempo of operations in Iraq. Petraeus's withdrawal recommendations have prevented a revolt of the generals.

Petraeus's achievement is no sleight of hand. If he had not produced real, demonstrable progress -- reported by many independent observers, including liberal Democrats, even before he came back home (i.e., the United States) -- his appearance before Congress would have swayed no one.

His testimony, steady and forthright, bought him the time to achieve his "realistic chance" of success. Not the unified, democratic Iraq we had hoped for the day Saddam Hussein's statue came down, but a radically decentralized Iraq with enough regional autonomy and self-sufficiency to produce a tolerable stalemated coexistence between contending forces.

That's for the longer term and still quite problematic. In the shorter term, however, there is a realistic chance of achieving a separate success that, within the context of Iraq, is of a second order but in the global context is of the highest order -- the defeat of al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Having poisoned one country and been expelled from it (Afghanistan), al-Qaeda seized upon post-Hussein instability to establish itself in the very heart of the Arab Middle East -- Sunni Iraq. Yet now, in front of all the world, Iraq's Sunnis are, to use the biblical phrase, vomiting out al-Qaeda. This is a defeat and humiliation in the extreme -- an Arab Muslim population rejecting al-Qaeda so violently that it allies itself in battle with the infidel, the foreigner, the occupier.

Just carrying this battle to its successful conclusion -- independent of its larger effect of helping stabilize Iraq -- is justification enough for the surge. The turning of Sunni Iraq against al-Qaeda is a signal event in the war on terrorism. Petraeus's plan is to be allowed to see it through.
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