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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 07:05 am
Greenspan: The Invasion of Iraq was all about Oil.

Gosh! Well I never. Who knew?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2170602,00.html
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 08:24 am
What is kinda shocking is that fact he is so blasé about supporting and encouraging Bush to unseat Saddam by any means for the oil.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 08:26 am
Blackwater license being revoked in Iraq

Quote:
BAGHDAD - The Iraqi government said Monday that it was revoking the license of an American security firm accused of involvement in the deaths of eight civilians in a firefight that followed a car bomb explosion near a State Department motorcade.

The Interior Ministry said it would prosecute any foreign contractors found to have used excessive force in the Sunday shooting. It was latest accusation against the U.S.-contracted firms that operate with little or no supervision and are widely disliked by Iraqis who resent their speeding motorcades and forceful behavior.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdul-Karim Khalaf said eight civilians were killed and 13 were wounded when contractors believed to be working for Blackwater USA opened fire in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood of western Baghdad.


(rest at the link in the title)
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 09:53 am
My christ, that last page is like a giant advertisement for Neocon writers.

None of them mention their own personal stake in the matter one bit...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 11:18 am
McTag wrote:
Greenspan: The Invasion of Iraq was all about Oil.

Gosh! Well I never. Who knew?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2170602,00.html

Quote:
Invasion of Iraq was driven by oil, says Greenspan

Richard Adams in Washington
Monday September 17, 2007
The Guardian

Alan Greenspan, the consummate Washington insider and long-time head of the US central bank, has backed the position taken by many anti-war critics - that the invasion of Iraq was motivated by oil.

Actually Greenspan wrote: "the invasion of Iraq should have been motivated by oil." In interviews Greenspan said that he recommended to Bush that he make protecting the world's oil supply the primary reason for removing Saddam Hussein. Greenspan said Bush rejected his recommendation.

His claim comes in his newly published autobiography, The Age of Turbulence, in which he also castigates George Bush's administration for making "grave mistakes" in economic policy.

Sounding more like an activist than a lifelong Republican who worked alongside six US presidents, Mr Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chairman, said in an interview with the Guardian that the invasion of Iraq was aimed at protecting Middle East oil reserves: "I thought the issue of weapons of mass destruction as the excuse was utterly beside the point."


Article continues

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Greenspan said it was clear to him that Saddam Hussein had wanted to control the Straits of Hormuz and so control Middle East oil shipments through the vital route out of the Gulf. He said that had Saddam been able to do that it would have been "devastating to the west" as the former Iraqi president could have just shut off 5m barrels a day and brought "the industrial world to its knees".

In the book Mr Greenspan writes: "Whatever their publicised angst over Saddam Hussain's 'weapons of mass destruction', American and British authorities were also concerned about violence in the area that harbours a resource indispensable for the functioning of the world economy. I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil."

Asked to explain his remark, he said: "From a rational point of view, I cannot understand why we don't name what is evident and indeed a wholly defensible pre-emptive position." As longest-serving chairman of the Fed, Mr Greenspan was renowned for his cryptic statements about the economy. But in his memoir, which went on sale over the weekend, he uncharacteristically criticises the Bush administration, while praising Bill Clinton and his advisers. "Little value was placed on rigorous economic policy debate or the weighing of long-term development," he writes of the current administration.

The 81-year-old's attack will hurt a White House already suffering feeble approval ratings and a faltering economic background. Describing ballooning government deficits under President Bush, he condemns the way deficit spending was used to support the legislative agenda: "It was a struggle for me to accept that this had become the dominant ethos and economic policy of the Republican party."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 11:38 am
Only the DINOs and RINOs see the Iraq war in exclusively negative terms. The DINOs and RINOs are AINOs.
DINO = Democrat in Name Only
RINO = Republican in Name Only
AINOs = American in Name Only.

Weeks before Petraeus and Crocker testified, the AINOs alleged that Petraeus and Crocker would not testify before Congress. AINOs further alleged that Bush would be the author of the September report required by Congress.

Next, when Petraeus and Crocker were scheduled to report to Congrss, the AINOs alleged they would give Bush's report and not their own report.

Next, the AINOs alleged Petraeus and Crocker were Bush lapdogs and could not be counted on to report the truth.

Next, the AINOs alleged that Petraeus and Crocker were liars.

Next, the AINOs alleged that Petraeus was betraying America.

Next, at the House hearing, while Petraeus and Crocker were sitting there waiting to testify, the AINOs alleged Petraeus and Crocker were liars.

Next, while Petraeus and Crocker were testifying, the AINOs interrupted Petraeus and Crocker several times and accused them of lying.

Next, when the AINOs claimed there were contradictions between Petraeus's report on Iraqi violence and the one by the Government Accountability Office, Petraeus pointed out that the GAO had to cut its data-gathering five weeks short to meet reporting requirements to Congress. And since those most recent five weeks had been particularly productive for the coalition, the GAO numbers were not only outdated but misleading.

Next, immediately after the end of the House and Senate hearings, the AINOs repeatedly alleged Petraeus and Crocker lied in their testimony.

Why didn't the AINO wait after Petraeus and Crocker testified until they spent at least a day evaluating Petraeus's and Crocker's testimony, before judging whether that testimony was true, false, or lies?

Did the AINOs really think that Petraeus and Crocker would be such convincing liars about progress in Iraq, that they had do whatever they could to make Petraeus and Crocker unbelievable?

Do the AINOs think that American success in Iraq might cost them their elections in November 2008, and consequently they must to do whatever they can, as soon as they can, to prevent American success in Iraq?

Are the AINO traitors?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 11:41 am
I'm ignoring your last post, b/c I don't want to have to think of you as an idiot.

By the way, Ican -

Quote:
General David Petraeus' own statistics reveal that there are now even fewer Iraqi forces capable of operating independently than there were at the start of the year. The number of Iraqi battalions considered "not ready" has more than tripled while the number of battalions deemed to be prepared has fallen 20%. Some U.S. and Iraqi officials fear that "return on success" could return Iraq to the chaos of 2006. (Boston Globe)


Iraqi security forces are moving backwards, not forwards. When Petraeus said they were 'making progress' with the Iraqi Army, he was lying.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 11:45 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I'm ignoring your last post, b/c I don't want to have to think of you as an idiot.

By the way, Ican -

Quote:
General David Petraeus' own statistics reveal that there are now even fewer Iraqi forces capable of operating independently than there were at the start of the year. The number of Iraqi battalions considered "not ready" has more than tripled while the number of battalions deemed to be prepared has fallen 20%. Some U.S. and Iraqi officials fear that "return on success" could return Iraq to the chaos of 2006. (Boston Globe)


Iraqi security forces are moving backwards, not forwards. When Petraeus said they were 'making progress' with the Iraqi Army, he was lying.

Cycloptichorn


Do I need to point out to you that Iraqi "security forces" includes more than just the army.

For instance,the Iraqi National Police are part of the security forces,but they are not part of the Iraqi army.
And yes,the INP does need some serious help,and it needs to have the corruption rooted out of its ranks.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 11:46 am
McTag wrote:
Greenspan: The Invasion of Iraq was all about Oil.

Gosh! Well I never. Who knew?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2170602,00.html


Greenspan: Ouster Of Hussein Crucial For Oil Security

By Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, September 17, 2007; A03

Alan Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chairman, said in an interview that the removal of Saddam Hussein had been "essential" to secure world oil supplies, a point he emphasized to the White House in private conversations before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Greenspan, who was the country's top voice on monetary policy at the time Bush decided to go to war in Iraq, has refrained from extensive public comment on it until now, but he made the striking comment in a new memoir out today that "the Iraq War is largely about oil." In the interview, he clarified that sentence in his 531-page book, saying that while securing global oil supplies was "not the administration's motive," he had presented the White House with the case for why removing Hussein was important for the global economy.

"I was not saying that that's the administration's motive," Greenspan said in an interview Saturday, "I'm just saying that if somebody asked me, 'Are we fortunate in taking out Saddam?' I would say it was essential."

He said that in his discussions with President Bush and Vice President Cheney, "I have never heard them basically say, 'We've got to protect the oil supplies of the world,' but that would have been my motive." Greenspan said that he made his economic argument to White House officials and that one lower-level official, whom he declined to identify, told him, "Well, unfortunately, we can't talk about oil." Asked if he had made his point to Cheney specifically, Greenspan said yes, then added, "I talked to everybody about that."

Greenspan said he had backed Hussein's ouster, either through war or covert action. "I wasn't arguing for war per se," he said. But "to take [Hussein] out, in my judgment, it was something important for the West to do and essential, but I never saw Plan B" -- an alternative to war.

Greenspan's reference in "The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World" to what he calls the "politically inconvenient" fact that the war was "largely about oil" was first reported by The Washington Post on Saturday and has proved controversial.

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates took issue with Greenspan on ABC's "This Week" yesterday. "I wasn't here for the decision-making process that initiated it, that started the war," Gates said. But, he added, "I know the same allegation was made about the Gulf War in 1991, and I just don't believe it's true."

Critics of the administration have often argued that while Bush cited Hussein's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction and despotic rule as reasons for the invasion, he was also motivated by a desire to gain access to Iraq's vast oil reserves. Publicly, little evidence has emerged to support that view, although a top-secret National Security Presidential Directive, titled "Iraq: Goals, Objectives and Strategy" and signed by Bush in August 2002 -- seven months before the invasion -- listed as one of many objectives "to minimize disruption in international oil markets."

Though Greenspan's book is largely silent about Iraq, it is sharply critical of Bush and fellow Republicans on other matters, denouncing in particular what Greenspan calls the president's lack of fiscal discipline and the "dysfunctional government" he has presided over. In the interview, Greenspan said he had previously told Bush and Cheney of his critique. "They're not surprised by my conclusions," he said.

As for Iraq, Greenspan said that at the time of the invasion, he believed, like Bush, that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction "because Saddam was acting so guiltily trying to protect something." While he was "reasonably sure he did not have an atomic weapon," he added, "my view was that if we do nothing, eventually he would gain control of a weapon."

His main support for Hussein's ouster, though, was economically motivated. "If Saddam Hussein had been head of Iraq and there was no oil under those sands," Greenspan said, "our response to him would not have been as strong as it was in the first gulf war. And the second gulf war is an extension of the first. My view is that Saddam, looking over his 30-year history, very clearly was giving evidence of moving towards controlling the Straits of Hormuz, where there are 17, 18, 19 million barrels a day" passing through.

Greenspan said disruption of even 3 to 4 million barrels a day could translate into oil prices as high as $120 a barrel -- far above even the recent highs of $80 set last week -- and the loss of anything more would mean "chaos" to the global economy.

Given that, "I'm saying taking Saddam out was essential," he said. But he added that he was not implying that the war was an oil grab.

"No, no, no," he said. Getting rid of Hussein achieved the purpose of "making certain that the existing system [of oil markets] continues to work, frankly, until we find other [energy supplies], which ultimately we will."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 12:03 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I'm ignoring your last post, b/c I don't want to have to think of you as an idiot.

Thank you for implicitly admitting you are unable to make a rational retort.

By the way, Ican -

Quote:
General David Petraeus' own statistics reveal that there are now even fewer Iraqi forces capable of operating independently than there were at the start of the year. The number of Iraqi battalions considered "not ready" has more than tripled while the number of battalions deemed to be prepared has fallen 20%. Some U.S. and Iraqi officials fear that "return on success" could return Iraq to the chaos of 2006. (Boston Globe)


Iraqi security forces are moving backwards, not forwards. When Petraeus said they were 'making progress' with the Iraqi Army, he was lying.

Cycloptichorn

We disagree!

Michael O'Hanlon and Jason Campbell, Brookings Institute, assembled these statistics, and wrote:

{Published in New York Times Op-ed, Tuesday, September 4, 2007. Republished in the Wall Street Journal editorial, The Measure of Progress, Friday, September 7, 2007}

IRAQ STATISTICS FOR THE MONTH OF AUGUST:

Multiple fatality suicide bombings: 2006 = 52; 2007 = 30;

Daily attacks by insurgents and militias: 2006 = 160; 2007 = 120;

Prisoners held by U.S. and Iraq: 2006 = 27,000; 2007 = 60,000;

Iraqi security forces: 2006 = 298,000; 2007 = 360,000.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 12:09 pm
Quote:
Michael O'Hanlon and Jason Campbell, Brookings Institute, assembled these statistics, and wrote:


Those hacks didn't assemble jack, they were taken on a controlled site seeing tour which was arranged by the WH.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 12:13 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I'm ignoring your last post, b/c I don't want to have to think of you as an idiot.

Thank you for implicitly admitting you are unable to make a rational retort.

By the way, Ican -

Quote:
General David Petraeus' own statistics reveal that there are now even fewer Iraqi forces capable of operating independently than there were at the start of the year. The number of Iraqi battalions considered "not ready" has more than tripled while the number of battalions deemed to be prepared has fallen 20%. Some U.S. and Iraqi officials fear that "return on success" could return Iraq to the chaos of 2006. (Boston Globe)


Iraqi security forces are moving backwards, not forwards. When Petraeus said they were 'making progress' with the Iraqi Army, he was lying.

Cycloptichorn

We disagree!

Michael O'Hanlon and Jason Campbell, Brookings Institute, assembled these statistics, and wrote:

{Published in New York Times Op-ed, Tuesday, September 4, 2007. Republished in the Wall Street Journal editorial, The Measure of Progress, Friday, September 7, 2007}

IRAQ STATISTICS FOR THE MONTH OF AUGUST:

Multiple fatality suicide bombings: 2006 = 52; 2007 = 30;

Daily attacks by insurgents and militias: 2006 = 160; 2007 = 120;

Prisoners held by U.S. and Iraq: 2006 = 27,000; 2007 = 60,000;

Iraqi security forces: 2006 = 298,000; 2007 = 360,000.


More numbers mean nothing, if the forces as a whole are sliding backwards from readiness levels, Petraeus' own numbers state.

Your last post was neither a serious nor logical one; there's nothing to rebut or discuss, other then personal aspects of your failure to understand reality. I don't find that interesting, so, I'll just skip it.

Cycloptichorn

ps. plz note Brand X's fine posting above, showing that O'hanlon is not a credible source on the readiness of the Iraqi army.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 12:17 pm
Brand X wrote:
Quote:
Michael O'Hanlon and Jason Campbell, Brookings Institute, assembled these statistics, and wrote:


Those hacks didn't assemble jack, they were taken on a controlled site seeing tour which was arranged by the WH.

Your source is?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 12:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:


...

More numbers mean nothing, if the forces as a whole are sliding backwards from readiness levels, Petraeus' own numbers state.

...

Cycloptichorn

...

Your source is?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 12:25 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


...

More numbers mean nothing, if the forces as a whole are sliding backwards from readiness levels, Petraeus' own numbers state.

...

Cycloptichorn

...

Your source is?


Naturally, my post provided the source: (Boston Globe).

Here's the article, for your perusal:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/09/16/petraeus_war_plan_is_doubted/

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 01:19 pm
IBC wrote:

iraq body count as of 07/31/2007
MONTHLY UPDATE OF IBC's COUNT OF VIOLENT CIVILIAN DEATHS IN IRAQ, SINCE 1/1/2003

............................... Monthly ........... Accumulated Totals Since
............................... Totals .............. January 1st 2003 ...........
December 2005 ............ ------ ..................... 36,859
January 2006 ............... 1,267 .................... 38,126
February 2006 .............. 1,287 .................... 39,413
March 2006 .................. 1,538 .................... 40,951
April 2006 .................... 1,287..................... 42,238
May 2006 ..................... 1,417 .................... 43,655
June 2006 .................... 2,089 .................... 45,744
July 2006 ..................... 2,336 .................... 48,080
August 2006 ................. 1,195 .................... 49,275
September 2006 ........... 1,407..................... 50,682
October 2006 ............... 2,546 ..................... 53,228
November 2006 ............ 3,894 ..................... 57,122
December 2006 ............ 3,219 ..................... 60,341
January 2007 ............... 2,557 ..................... 62,898
February 2007 .............. 2,514 ..................... 65,412
March 2007 .................. 2,720 ..................... 68,132
April 2007 ……………......... 2,359..................... 70,491
May 2007 ................ 3,755 ..................... 74,246
…………………. Surge now fully operational ...............
June 2007 .................... 2,386 .................... 76,632
July 2007 ..................... 2,077 .................... 78,709[/size]
August 2007 ................... Question ......................... Question
{August 2007 statistics projected from statistics up to 8/8/07
August 2007 ................. 1,860 ........................ 80,569 }

0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 01:39 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


...

More numbers mean nothing, if the forces as a whole are sliding backwards from readiness levels, Petraeus' own numbers state.

...

Cycloptichorn

...

Your source is?


Naturally, my post provided the source: (Boston Globe).

Here's the article, for your perusal:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/09/16/petraeus_war_plan_is_doubted/

Cycloptichorn

More numbers mean a lot. There are now more Iraqis available to train to levels of readiness where they will eventually not require a US presence.

From the link that you provided:

Quote:
By Bryan Bender and Farah Stockman, Globe Staff | September 16, 2007
WASHINGTON - Despite his conclusion that Iraqi units can replace US combat troops who will return home by the end of the year, statistics produced by General David Petraeus, the top American commander in Iraq, indicate that there are now fewer Iraqi units that can operate independently than there were at the beginning of the year.

…

Keane now believes that the risk of simultaneously drawing down US troop levels and handing more missions to the Iraqis is acceptable because US and Iraqi commanders understand the dangers of a security vacuum and are preparing to maintain a [US] presence in the most restive areas.

...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 02:22 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


...

More numbers mean nothing, if the forces as a whole are sliding backwards from readiness levels, Petraeus' own numbers state.

...

Cycloptichorn

...

Your source is?


Naturally, my post provided the source: (Boston Globe).

Here's the article, for your perusal:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/09/16/petraeus_war_plan_is_doubted/

Cycloptichorn

More numbers mean a lot. There are now more Iraqis available to train to levels of readiness where they will eventually not require a US presence.

From the link that you provided:

Quote:
By Bryan Bender and Farah Stockman, Globe Staff | September 16, 2007
WASHINGTON - Despite his conclusion that Iraqi units can replace US combat troops who will return home by the end of the year, statistics produced by General David Petraeus, the top American commander in Iraq, indicate that there are now fewer Iraqi units that can operate independently than there were at the beginning of the year.

…

Keane now believes that the risk of simultaneously drawing down US troop levels and handing more missions to the Iraqis is acceptable because US and Iraqi commanders understand the dangers of a security vacuum and are preparing to maintain a [US] presence in the most restive areas.

...


I'm not sure I understand your position. You are saying, the fact that there are less 'ready' units then there were last year is a good thing?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 02:48 pm
The disaster that is the attempt to prevent archaeological looting and destruction in Iraq:

http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2970762.ece

Iraq has/had seen innumerable wars since the time of Babylon; so many armies have marched through baghdad, it isn't even funny. But it's now that the antiquities are being destroyed, due to our extremely poor governance, and the fact that the US leadership doesn't give a f*ck about such things.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2007 03:20 pm
One of the many dozens of reaons why the Bush administration will never win in Iraq.


Blackwater license being revoked in Iraq



By BASSEM MROUE, Associated Press Writer
Mon Sep 17, 11:48 AM ET



BAGHDAD - The Iraqi government said Monday that it was revoking the license of an American security firm accused of involvement in the deaths of eight civilians in a firefight that followed a car bomb explosion near a State Department motorcade.

The Interior Ministry said it would prosecute any foreign contractors found to have used excessive force in the Sunday shooting. It was the latest accusation against the U.S.-contracted firms that operate with little or no supervision and are widely disliked by Iraqis who resent their speeding motorcades and forceful behavior.

Underscoring the seriousness of the matter, the State Department said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice planned to call Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to express regret and assure him that the U.S. has launched an investigation into the matter to ensure nothing like it happens again.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdul-Karim Khalaf said eight civilians were killed and 13 were wounded when contractors believed to be working for Blackwater USA opened fire in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood of western Baghdad.

"We have canceled the license of Blackwater and prevented them from working all over Iraqi territory. We will also refer those involved to Iraqi judicial authorities," Khalaf said.

Murphy's Law took over this war before day one.
0 Replies
 
 

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