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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 02:34 pm
"Our own poll" is wasted time and energy, because the big guys do that on a regular basis that covers the whole country: their sampling is more accurate.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 02:36 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Our own poll" is wasted time and energy, because the big guys do that on a regular basis that covers the whole country: their sampling is more accurate.

Do you favor America leaving Iraq before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 02:37 pm
ican wrote :

Quote:
I'll go with that well known American philosopher , Yogi Berra:

"It ain't over 'til it's over."


unfortunately , in a war people get killed and maimed
while waiting " 'til its over " .

many of the american soldiers being sent to iraq will never see a baseball game again - even after it is over .
does that count in the "game of the iraq war" ?
if the manager and trainers of a baseball team are not doing their job , they usually get fired very quickly by the owner - sometimes by the next day !
hbg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 02:42 pm
We all know about the praise Rumsfeld received from Cheney at his "goodbye" party. What made that event funnier is when McCain criticised Rummy recently about "the worst secretary of defense."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 02:45 pm
Second thought: The worst kind of manager are those who doesn't know the difference between ability and inability, skill and no skill, and competence and incompetence. Bush and Cheney can't be any worse managers of this administration - if they tried. "Being president is hard work."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 03:21 pm
hamburger wrote:
ican wrote :

Quote:
I'll go with that well known American philosopher , Yogi Berra:

"It ain't over 'til it's over."


unfortunately , in a war people get killed and maimed
while waiting " 'til its over " .

many of the american soldiers being sent to iraq will never see a baseball game again - even after it is over .
does that count in the "game of the iraq war" ?
if the manager and trainers of a baseball team are not doing their job , they usually get fired very quickly by the owner - sometimes by the next day !
hbg

Unfortunately, hbg, American soldiers are at least as likely to die saving their homeland, if we leave Iraq, as they are, if we stay in Iraq. I bet you are thinking that has not been proven true. I'm thinking that has not been proven false. Unfortunately, historically, the appetites of would be tyrants for the death of those opposed to them could not be satisfied by yielding to them.

Do you favor America leaving Iraq before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq?
YES = ?
NO = ican, ?
UNDECIDED = ?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 03:28 pm
ican wrote: "...Unfortunately, hbg, American soldiers are at least as likely to die saving their homeland, if we leave Iraq, ..."

How are those terrorists supposed to come into our country from Iraq? If you have a viable plan for it, I'm sure the Iraqi terrorists would love to hear it. It's just a matter of time before any terrorist will pass our borders to reek havoc in our country from terrorist activity.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 03:29 pm
Undecided but lean towards yes.

I wish our military was inside the US defending our homeland. Maybe then if we are attacked (which could just as well happen now)we would be a little more prepared than we was during the whole Katrina fiasco.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 08:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican wrote: "...Unfortunately, hbg, American soldiers are at least as likely to die saving their homeland, if we leave Iraq, ..."

How are those terrorists supposed to come into our country from Iraq? If you have a viable plan for it, I'm sure the Iraqi terrorists would love to hear it. It's just a matter of time before any terrorist will pass our borders to reek havoc in our country from terrorist activity.

They don't need any plan from us. Their plan is already obvious. Those terrorists will come here from Iraq the same way those terrorists came here from Afghanistan.

Some appear to already be here waiting for what they think is the right time (e.g., after we prematurely leave Iraq) to explode themselves in crowded environs. They came via feet, trucks, boats, and airplanes. Commercial airliners are how the 19 that exploded themselves in the world trade center, in the pentagon, and on a Pennsylvania farm on 9/11 came here.

19 mass murdered 3,000 non-murderers.

How many non-murders could 19,000 such critters mass murder in these United States?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 08:08 pm
revel wrote:
Undecided but lean towards yes.

Thank you for answering this question:
Do you favor America leaving Iraq before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq?
YES = ?
NO = ican, ?
UNDECIDED = revel, ?


I wish our military was inside the US defending our homeland. Maybe then if we are attacked (which could just as well happen now)we would be a little more prepared than we was during the whole Katrina fiasco.

The Katrina fiasco could not have been averted by our military even if they were all in the US. The Katrina fiasco was fomented by the mayor of New Orleans, the governor of Louisiana, and the federal government.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 08:17 pm
hamburger wrote:

...
if the manager and trainers of a baseball team are not doing their job , they usually get fired very quickly by the owner - sometimes by the next day !
hbg

The US Constitution, "the supreme Law of the Land", allows our elected officials to be fired for incompetence only at the end of their terms of office. Only if they commit and are convicted of an impeachable offense (i.e., "Treason, Bribery, or other high crimes and Misdemeanors") can they be fired sooner.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 08:20 pm
And it seems that the democratic majority might just entertain that idea after all the information not known previously about his administration now becomes revealed.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 04:15 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
And it seems that the democratic majority might just entertain that idea after all the information not known previously about his administration now becomes revealed.


But since the repubs still control the Senate,by virtue of having enough votes to block anything the dems wamt to do,it isnt gonna happen anyway.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 05:32 am
mysteryman wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
And it seems that the democratic majority might just entertain that idea after all the information not known previously about his administration now becomes revealed.


But since the repubs still control the Senate,by virtue of having enough votes to block anything the dems wamt to do,it isnt gonna happen anyway.

he said, breathing a sigh of relief that the most incompetent administration in the history of the USA will escape justice.-

----------------
If the present group of Republicans were truly patriotic, in the actual sense, not the flag-waving Fourth of July speech meaning, they would themselves lead the Senate in a full investigation of the path to this war in Iraq, but they are chicken-hawks in more ways than one.

Joe(They should all give themselves Medals of Freedom)Nation
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 05:56 am
Joe Nation wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
And it seems that the democratic majority might just entertain that idea after all the information not known previously about his administration now becomes revealed.


But since the repubs still control the Senate,by virtue of having enough votes to block anything the dems wamt to do,it isnt gonna happen anyway.

he said, breathing a sigh of relief that the most incompetent administration in the history of the USA will escape justice.-

----------------
If the present group of Republicans were truly patriotic, in the actual sense, not the flag-waving Fourth of July speech meaning, they would themselves lead the Senate in a full investigation of the path to this war in Iraq, but they are chicken-hawks in more ways than one.

Joe(They should all give themselves Medals of Freedom)Nation


Thats funny,you had the exact opposite view of the dems whn Clinton was impeachd.
Why is that?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 07:17 am
A STRATEGIC SHIFT

Quote:
In the past few months, as the situation in Iraq has deteriorated, the Bush Administration, in both its public diplomacy and its covert operations, has significantly shifted its Middle East strategy. The "redirection," as some inside the White House have called the new strategy, has brought the United States closer to an open confrontation with Iran and, in parts of the region, propelled it into a widening sectarian conflict between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.

To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia's government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda.We have all learned lessons from the conflict in Iraq, and we have to apply those lessons to any allegations that are being raised about Iran. Because, Mr. President, what we are hearing has too familiar a ring and we must be on guard that we never again make decisions on the basis of intelligence that turns out to be faulty.""They hate the Shiites, but they hate Americans more. If you try to outsmart them, they will outsmart us. It will be ugly."



I would just like to know what gives us the right to use the world as our own personal chess game. We can't even claim we are supporting one group over another because one is extremist and one is not since the ones we are supporting cause more violence towards our troops than the other. In the end everything comes down to Israel as usual.

(Btw-that is not being anti-Semitic (all of them are Semitic), but just stating the facts as I see them.)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 09:04 am
The Choice on Iraq
"I appeal to my colleagues in Congress to step back and think carefully about what to do next."

BY JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
Monday, February 26, 2007 12:01 a.m. EST

Two months into the 110th Congress, Washington has never been more bitterly divided over our mission in Iraq. The Senate and House of Representatives are bracing for parliamentary trench warfare--trapped in an escalating dynamic of division and confrontation that will neither resolve the tough challenges we face in Iraq nor strengthen our nation against its terrorist enemies around the world.

What is remarkable about this state of affairs in Washington is just how removed it is from what is actually happening in Iraq. There, the battle of Baghdad is now under way. A new commander, Gen. David Petraeus, has taken command, having been confirmed by the Senate, 81-0, just a few weeks ago. And a new strategy is being put into action, with thousands of additional American soldiers streaming into the Iraqi capital.

Congress thus faces a choice in the weeks and months ahead. Will we allow our actions to be driven by the changing conditions on the ground in Iraq--or by the unchanging political and ideological positions long ago staked out in Washington? What ultimately matters more to us: the real fight over there, or the political fight over here?

If we stopped the legislative maneuvering and looked to Baghdad, we would see what the new security strategy actually entails and how dramatically it differs from previous efforts. For the first time in the Iraqi capital, the focus of the U.S. military is not just training indigenous forces or chasing down insurgents, but ensuring basic security--meaning an end, at last, to the large-scale sectarian slaughter and ethnic cleansing that has paralyzed Iraq for the past year.

Tamping down this violence is more than a moral imperative. Al Qaeda's stated strategy in Iraq has been to provoke a Sunni-Shiite civil war, precisely because they recognize that it is their best chance to radicalize the country's politics, derail any hope of democracy in the Middle East, and drive the U.S. to despair and retreat. It also takes advantage of what has been the single greatest American weakness in Iraq: the absence of sufficient troops to protect ordinary Iraqis from violence and terrorism.

The new strategy at last begins to tackle these problems. Where previously there weren't enough soldiers to hold key neighborhoods after they had been cleared of extremists and militias, now more U.S. and Iraqi forces are either in place or on the way. Where previously American forces were based on the outskirts of Baghdad, unable to help secure the city, now they are living and working side-by-side with their Iraqi counterparts on small bases being set up throughout the capital.

At least four of these new joint bases have already been established in the Sunni neighborhoods in west Baghdad--the same neighborhoods where, just a few weeks ago, jihadists and death squads held sway. In the Shiite neighborhoods of east Baghdad, American troops are also moving in--and Moqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi army are moving out.

We of course will not know whether this new strategy in Iraq will succeed for some time. Even under the most optimistic of scenarios, there will be more attacks and casualties in the months ahead, especially as our fanatical enemies react and attempt to thwart any perception of progress.

But the fact is that we are in a different place in Iraq today from even just a month ago--with a new strategy, a new commander, and more troops on the ground. We are now in a stronger position to ensure basic security--and with that, we are in a stronger position to marginalize the extremists and strengthen the moderates; a stronger position to foster the economic activity that will drain the insurgency and militias of public support; and a stronger position to press the Iraqi government to make the tough decisions that everyone acknowledges are necessary for progress.

Unfortunately, for many congressional opponents of the war, none of this seems to matter. As the battle of Baghdad just gets underway, they have already made up their minds about America's cause in Iraq, declaring their intention to put an end to the mission before we have had the time to see whether our new plan will work.

There is of course a direct and straightforward way that Congress could end the war, consistent with its authority under the Constitution: by cutting off funds. Yet this option is not being proposed. Critics of the war instead are planning to constrain and squeeze the current strategy and troops by a thousand cuts and conditions.

Among the specific ideas under consideration are to tangle up the deployment of requested reinforcements by imposing certain "readiness" standards, and to redraft the congressional authorization for the war, apparently in such a way that Congress will assume the role of commander in chief and dictate when, where and against whom U.S. troops can fight.

I understand the frustration, anger and exhaustion so many Americans feel about Iraq, the desire to throw up our hands and simply say, "Enough." And I am painfully aware of the enormous toll of this war in human life, and of the infuriating mistakes that have been made in the war's conduct.

But we must not make another terrible mistake now. Many of the worst errors in Iraq arose precisely because the Bush administration best-cased what would happen after Saddam was overthrown. Now many opponents of the war are making the very same best-case mistake--assuming we can pull back in the midst of a critical battle with impunity, even arguing that our retreat will reduce the terrorism and sectarian violence in Iraq.

In fact, halting the current security operation at midpoint, as virtually all of the congressional proposals seek to do, would have devastating consequences. It would put thousands of American troops already deployed in the heart of Baghdad in even greater danger--forced to choose between trying to hold their position without the required reinforcements or, more likely, abandoning them outright. A precipitous pullout would leave a gaping security vacuum in its wake, which terrorists, insurgents, militias and Iran would rush to fill--probably resulting in a spiral of ethnic cleansing and slaughter on a scale as yet unseen in Iraq.

I appeal to my colleagues in Congress to step back and think carefully about what to do next. Instead of undermining Gen. Petraeus before he has been in Iraq for even a month, let us give him and his troops the time and support they need to succeed.

Gen. Petraeus says he will be able to see whether progress is occurring by the end of the summer, so let us declare a truce in the Washington political war over Iraq until then. Let us come together around a constructive legislative agenda for our security: authorizing an increase in the size of the Army and Marines, funding the equipment and protection our troops need, monitoring progress on the ground in Iraq with oversight hearings, investigating contract procedures, and guaranteeing Iraq war veterans the first-class treatment and care they deserve when they come home.

We are at a critical moment in Iraq--at the beginning of a key battle, in the midst of a war that is irretrievably bound up in an even bigger, global struggle against the totalitarian ideology of radical Islamism. However tired, however frustrated, however angry we may feel, we must remember that our forces in Iraq carry America's cause--the cause of freedom--which we abandon at our peril.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 09:14 am
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool a third time, call me a fool.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 11:42 am
ican wrote :

Quote:
hamburger wrote:

...
if the manager and trainers of a baseball team are not doing their job , they usually get fired very quickly by the owner - sometimes by the next day !
hbg

The US Constitution, "the supreme Law of the Land", allows our elected officials to be fired for incompetence only at the end of their terms of office. Only if they commit and are convicted of an impeachable offense (i.e., "Treason, Bribery, or other high crimes and Misdemeanors") can they be fired sooner.


so wouldn't it be best to leave yogi berra - and baseball - out of the iraq war ?

wether american troops should/should not leave , is of course up to our neighbours ; i have no say in it .

if you believe that by keeping american troops in iraq , america will be safer from terrorists , i hope you are right .
i really do not want any terrorists in our neighbouring country .

i do fear that the continuing american occupation of iraq creates more terrorists every day . if these terrorists think that they will have easier targets elsewhere , that's where they will likely go .
as a matter of fact , we all know that many terrorists not only DO NOT FEAR DEATH but think that it is glorious to die for their cause .
so hoping that they'll be confined to iraq by continued american action there , is wishful thinking imo .

(i'd compare it to sticking your hand into a hornets' nest . the hornets know that they'll be killed when they attack you - they still keep attacking).
hbg
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 11:50 am
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/26/iraq.main/index.html

Quote:
Iraqi VP wounded, 12 killed in bombing at ministry
Story Highlights

• NEW: Explosion during Iraqi VP's speech kills 12, injures 42, including VP
• Iraqi president in hospital in Jordan
• U.S. military says large weapons cache seized
• Woman bomber kills at least 40, wounds 55, in Sunday bombing at university

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Insurgents bombed Iraq's Ministry of Municipalities building as top Iraqi officials gathered there Monday morning for a celebration, Iraqi officials said.

The attack killed at least 12 people and wounded 42 others, including Iraqi Vice President Adel Abdul Mahdi, the officials said.


Mahdi, a member of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq -- a powerful Shiite political group -- suffered minor injuries to his hand and leg in the blast, SCIRI spokesman Haithem al-Husseini told CNN.

Mahdi went home immediately after the attack, then had his injuries checked at a hospital, where he was treated and released, al-Husseini said.

Two Municipalities Ministry officials were also among those wounded in the late-morning attack on the building, located in the western Baghdad district of Mansour, an Iraqi Health Ministry official said.

The SCIRI spokesman said he suspects the attackers were Sunni extremists who were targeting the government officials.

"It was very well known that it's going to be attended by some of the top officials of the government," al-Husseini said.

He blamed the attackers for "trying to provoke a kind of a sectarian sedition" between moderate Sunni and Shiite groups in Iraq.

"[The moderate groups] all know about the bad intentions of those terrorist groups and they are not going to be dragged into such kind of troubles," the spokesman said.

An investigation was under way to determine where the explosive device was planted, how it got past security, and who was behind the attack.

Al-Husseini said some believe the bomb may have been placed on the roof above the hall where the ceremony took place.

Meanwhile, Iraq's president was in a Jordanian hospital on Monday for tests.

Jalal Talabani was taken to Amman from Iraq on Sunday after he became dizzy and experienced low blood pressure, a doctor told CNN. (Full story)
Weapons cache discovered

The U.S. military announced Monday that U.S. forces and Iraqi police uncovered a large weapons cache in a palm grove in the village of Jedida near Baquba over the weekend, following a tip by citizen.

The cache found on Saturday included deadly armor-piercing explosives and the elements to construct more of the weapons known as explosively formed projectiles.

Also in the cache were components and explosives used in the construction of roadside bombs

"The vigilance of the Iraqi Police and the willingness of the people of Diyala to end the cycle of violence led to this discovery," said Col. David Sutherland, a senior U.S. Army officer in Diyala province.

"The terrorists and sectarian fighters who use these explosives have no other desire than to stop the progress of the country," Sutherland said. "Their hatred manifests itself in the weapons that these supplies would have been used for."
Female suicide bomber kills 40

Sunday, a combination of rocket and bomb attacks -- the worst taking place at the entrance to a Baghdad university -- killed more than 50 people and wounded dozens of others in Iraq.

The suicide bomber was a woman, an official with the Iraqi Interior Ministry told CNN, based on eyewitness accounts. At least 40 people were killed and 55 wounded in the blast.

Most of the dead were students, the official said.

A 22-year-old student, Muhanad Nasir, told AP he saw a commotion at the gate.

"Then there was an explosion. I did not feel anything for 15 minutes, and when I returned to consciousness, I found myself in the hospital," said Nasir, who had injuries to his head and chest.(Watch bloody scene at collegeVideo)

The metal gate to the college was twisted by the force of the blast and shrapnel tore chunks out of the cement walls, AP reported.

Video from the scene showed people using rags and clothes to mop up puddles of blood.

Elsewhere in Baghdad Sunday, two rockets landed in an outdoor market in the Abu Dishir Shiite neighborhood, killing at least 10 people, and a car bomb exploded in central Baghdad just 100 yards from the Iranian embassy, killing at least one person, officials said.
Anti-U.S. cleric says security plan doomed to fail

Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr said Sunday that the U.S.-backed Baghdad security plan was not stopping violence in the Iraqi capital, and was doomed to fail, AP reported.

Many in Iraq believe al-Sadr agreed to requests from the Shiite-led government to rein in his Mehdi Army militia to give the plan a chance to work, AP said.

His Sunday statement suggests he is losing patience and increases pressure on U.S. and Iraqi forces to make the crackdown successful, AP reported.

Iraqi National Security Adviser Mowaffak al-Rubaie told CNN on Sunday the security plan needs time to work and it could take months before there are "tangible" successes over the sectarian warfare in the Iraqi capital.

"We should not look at this Baghdad security plan in terms of days or even weeks," al-Rubaie said." "Probably we will see a tangible success or measurable success by Easter time [early April]."

Al-Rubaie also said Iran has stopped interfering in Iraq's affairs and has advised its allies inside Iraq to support the government and the Baghdad security plan. (Full story)

Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said Saturday the U.S.-Iraqi crackdown on insurgents has dismantled terrorist cells and yielded the arrests and killing of hundreds of insurgents. The prime minister said 426 suspected insurgents have been detained and roughly the same number killed.

CNN's Mohammed Tawfeeq contributed to this report.

Copyright 2007 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report


Cycloptichorn
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