THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

The reason our mission in Iraq has proven to be so disastrous and corrupt is very simple -- the advocates and architects of that war are completely corrupt, inept, and deceitful. Recognizing this fact and ceasing to accord people like this with respect and credibility is infinitely more important than any specific debates over particular policy or strategic questions. Everywhere Joe Lieberman goes, he should be asked by journalists why anyone should listen to anything he says, or believe anything he says, in light of his history of deceitful statements and tragically wrong assertions, beginning with his 2005 Op-Ed which today he completely repudiates while pretending he never said any of it.

These are people who are completely bereft of judgment and integrity, and their behavior has wreaked incalculable and arguably unprecedented damage on our country. Holding them accountable, and recognizing them for what they are, is critical not only for cleansing our deeply poisoned political system, but also for averting identical, or worse, tragedies in the very near future.

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wether american troops should/should not leave , is of course up to our neighbours ; i have no say in it.

You have a say; you do not have a vote. So what do you say:
Do you favor America leaving Iraq before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq?
YES = ?
NO = ican, ?
UNDECIDED = revel, ?

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(i'd compare it to sticking your hand into a hornets' nest . the hornets know that they'll be killed when they attack you - they still keep attacking).

I think you meant a bees nest. Bees die when they sting; hornets do not die when they sting.
hbg

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Why should anyone believe what Lieberman says? Where does his credibility stem from? What has he done to earn this credibility?

Same questions go to yourself and Ican.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

Why should anyone believe what Lieberman says? Where does his credibility stem from? What has he done to earn this credibility?

Same questions go to yourself and Ican.

Cycloptichorn

This question goes to you, Cyclo.

Do you favor America leaving Iraq before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq?
YES = ?
NO = ican, ?
UNDECIDED = revel, ?[/color]

ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

Why should anyone believe what Lieberman says? Where does his credibility stem from? What has he done to earn this credibility?

Same questions go to yourself and Ican.

Cycloptichorn

This question goes to you, Cyclo.

Do you favor America leaving Iraq before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq?
YES = ?
NO = ican, ?
UNDECIDED = revel, ?[/color]

False question. There is no answer other than 'yes' possible, because those who are running the country of Iraq are just as bad as those we are currently fighting there.

If we left, who would protect the Sunnis of Iraq from the Shia majorities, who have shown that they aren't afraid to participate in murder and ethnic cleansing themselves?

You posit a situation which cannot currently exist. It's a mythical beast, an invention of the mind, with no relation to reality.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

Why should anyone believe what Lieberman says? Where does his credibility stem from? What has he done to earn this credibility?

Same questions go to yourself and Ican.

Cycloptichorn

This question goes to you, Cyclo.

Do you favor America leaving Iraq before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq?
YES = ?
NO = ican, ?
UNDECIDED = revel, ?[/color]

False question. There is no answer other than 'yes' possible, because those who are running the country of Iraq are just as bad as those we are currently fighting there.

If we left, who would protect the Sunnis of Iraq from the Shia majorities, who have shown that they aren't afraid to participate in murder and ethnic cleansing themselves?

You posit a situation which cannot currently exist. It's a mythical beast, an invention of the mind, with no relation to reality.

Cycloptichorn

I think you should read the question I posed more carefully. Your 'yes' is unerstandable, but your commentary following your 'yes' makes no sense.

Surely you understand that America can leave Iraq before the Iraqis are able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq, even if the Iraqis are NEVER able to defend themselves, without our help, against MMONM.

I'm just wondering of the oil issue supercedes the issue of family members and friends being killed on a regular basis by the sectarian and incursion in-fightings. I think not; too little, too late.

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Yes, we can and should leave as soon as possible. Any implication that we should 'stay until they can defend themselves' is ludicrous; because we can't protect Iraqis from Other Iraqis in perpetuity, and they will not choose to do so once we leave. Thus the false nature of the question, because there will never come a time that the Iraqis won't perpetrate some sort of violence upon themselves, no matter when we leave.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
Yes, we can and should leave as soon as possible. Any implication that we should 'stay until they can defend themselves' is ludicrous; because we can't protect Iraqis from Other Iraqis in perpetuity, and they will not choose to do so once we leave. Thus the false nature of the question, because there will never come a time that the Iraqis won't perpetrate some sort of violence upon themselves, no matter when we leave.

Cycloptichorn

"never" is a very long time!

I favor what most Americans favor; removal of our troops from Iraq by 2008.

POLLING REPORTS OVER TIME

Associated Press-Ipsos poll
2/12-15/07

"Do you think the war in Iraq is a worthy cause or a hopeless cause?"

Worthy = 39%
Hopeless = 56%
Both = 2%
Neither = 2%
Unsure = 1%

"Would you favor or oppose Congress cutting all funding for the Iraq war?"

Favor = 29%
Oppose = 68%
Unsure = 3%

"Would you favor or oppose Congress cutting funding for the additional troops President Bush wants to send to Iraq?"

Favor = 38%
Oppose = 60%
Unsure = 2%

"Do you think sending more troops to Iraq would help stabilize the situation there, or not?"

Would Help = 32%
Would Not = 64%
Unsure = 4%

The democrats are gutless wannabes; they're afraid of the political backlash over the lives of our soldiers. The primary message from the American People is "get our troops home by 2008." Very simple.

I favor what most Americans favor; removal of our troops from Iraq by 2008.

POLLING REPORTS OVER TIME
USA Today/Gallup Poll. Feb. 9-11, 2007

"Would you favor or oppose Congress taking each of the following actions in regards to the war in Iraq?"

"Setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of next year"
Favor = 63%
Oppose = 35%
Unsure = 2%

"Putting a cap or limit on the number of U.S. troops serving in Iraq at any one time"
Favor = 57%
Oppose = 40%
Unsure = 2%

"Denying the funding needed to send any additional U.S. troops to Iraq"
Favor = 40%
Oppose = 58%
Unsure = 2%

POLLING REPORTS OVER TIME
CBS News Poll. Feb. 8-11, 2007

"Regardless of whether you think taking military action in Iraq was the right thing to do, would you say that the U.S. is very likely to succeed in Iraq, somewhat likely to succeed, not very likely to succeed, or not at all likely to succeed in Iraq?"

Very Likely = 13%
Somewhat Likely = 37%
Not Very Likely = 26%
Not at All Likely = 21%
Unsure = 3%


POLLING REPORTS OVER TIME
Pew Research Center for the People & the Press Feb. 7-11, 2007

"Do you think the U.S. should keep military troops in Iraq until the situation has stabilized, or do you think the U.S. should bring its troops home as soon as possible?"

Keep Troops = 42%
Bring Home = 53%
Unsure = 5%

"Regardless of what you think about the original decision to use military force in Iraq, do you now believe that the United States will definitely succeed, probably succeed, probably fail, or definitely fail in establishing a stable democratic government in Iraq?" N=740, MoE ± 4 (Form 1)
Definitely Succeed = 7%
Probably Succeed = 37%
Probably Fail = 35%
Definitely Fail = 12%
Unsure = 9%