THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

ican wrote: I have provided an explanation why I think Western Leftists claiming we have lost the Iraq war have caused a greater problem in Iraq than the sum of the problems the Bush administration has caused in Iraq.

Show evidence to support your "explanation" why this has any merit?

My explanation: We lost the war in Iraq, because there is no way to succeed with 150,000 troops. Terrorism in Iraq is increasing.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican wrote: I have provided an explanation why I think Western Leftists claiming we have lost the Iraq war have caused a greater problem in Iraq than the sum of the problems the Bush administration has caused in Iraq.

Show evidence to support your "explanation" why this has any merit?

Show evidence to support a claim--by anyone--that I have not provided any evidence to support my claim that:
Western Leftists claiming we have lost the Iraq war have caused a greater problem in Iraq than the sum of the problems the Bush administration has caused in Iraq.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican wrote: I have provided an explanation why I think Western Leftists claiming we have lost the Iraq war have caused a greater problem in Iraq than the sum of the problems the Bush administration has caused in Iraq.

Show evidence to support your "explanation" why this has any merit?

My explanation: We lost the war in Iraq, because there is no way to succeed with 150,000 troops. Terrorism in Iraq is increasing.

Show evidence to support a claim--by anyone--that I have not provided any evidence to support my claim that:
Western Leftists claiming we have lost the Iraq war have caused a greater problem in Iraq than the sum of the problems the Bush administration has caused in Iraq.

Please explain why you think:
"We lost the war in Iraq, because there is no way to succeed with 150,000 troops. Terrorism in Iraq is increasing."

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ican wrote :

Quote:

Please explain why you think:
"We lost the war in Iraq, because there is no way to succeed with 150,000 troops. Terrorism in Iraq is increasing."

the war has been going on for about four years now
- thousands upon thousands have been killed and maimed ,
- large areas of iraq have been turned into rubble ,
- deathsquads of various kinds seem to be roaming around freely ,
- and so on and so on ...

i don't see an end in sight and can't see how anyone is winning
(unless one thinks of the arms' manufacturers - they seem to be winning).

how an occupation can be successful was demonstrated by the allied forces in germany after WW II - i believe i adequately adressed that point some time ago .

i'd agree with the c.i. , the war in iraq as currently conducted is unwinnable . i also believe that the vietnam war showed quite clearly why such wars cannot be won in a conventional way .

i recall a u.s. commander complaining that the enemies weren't even wearing uniforms ! (and look at what's happening in afghanistan - another bloodletting and futile exercise).
hbg

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Another success for Bush. When our troops invaded Iraq, they didn't have any WMDs (or at least we couldn't find any). Now, they do.

U.S. Says It Found Chemicals at Iraqi Bomb Factory

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican wrote: I have provided an explanation why I think Western Leftists claiming we have lost the Iraq war have caused a greater problem in Iraq than the sum of the problems the Bush administration has caused in Iraq.

Show evidence to support your "explanation" why this has any merit?

I've done that!

Now it's your turn. Show evidence why you think I have not done that.

Show evidence to support why you think the following does not have any merit:
Western Leftists claiming we have lost the Iraq war have caused a greater problem in Iraq than the sum of the problems the Bush administration has caused in Iraq.

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
The fact that you refuse to provide evidence or confirmation for your assertion that Western Leftists are responsible for the majority of problems in Iraq, or at least more responsible than those who have actually run the war.

Prove everyone wrong! Post your evidence - not your theory or supposition, your real evidence - that your assertions are true. Otherwise you're just going to have to continue to accept some very valid criticism of your position.

Cycloptichorn

Prove I am wrong! Post your evidence - not your theory or supposition, your real evidence - that your assertions here are true. Otherwise you're just going to have to continue to accept some very valid criticism of your position.

Your word games not withstanding, I think it's pretty safe to say that while your opinion is that Leftists are responsible for problems in Iraq, you don't have any actual proof of this.

let's move on - I've noticed that you don't post your predictions of lowered death counts any longer. Is it because you got tired of being consistently wrong?

Cycloptichorn

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People (enemies) do not care about what people out of Iraq talks about. To make the claim that it does just goes to show ignorance of the realities of war.

The issues for the enemy is not what people around the world talk about. It's primary based on several issues including, but not limited to, control the government, fight the occupiers, change the government's agenda, and/or sectarian conflict. Over 50 percent of Iraqis now justify the killing of American soldiers. That's not caused by American discussions about this war.

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ican wrote :

Quote:

Western Leftists claiming we have lost the Iraq war have caused a greater problem in Iraq than the sum of the problems the Bush administration has caused in Iraq.

am i to understannd that "western leftists" have caused more death and destruction in iraq than the "bush administration" ?

(is this similar to claims that war protesters in the united states caused the united states to withdraw from vietnam ?)
hbg (right now scratching my head and wondering if i didn't understand what ican posted)

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hamburger wrote:

...
i'd agree with the c.i. , the war in iraq as currently conducted is unwinnable . i also believe that the vietnam war showed quite clearly why such wars cannot be won in a conventional way.

i recall a u.s. commander complaining that the enemies weren't even wearing uniforms ! (and look at what's happening in afghanistan - another bloodletting and futile exercise).
hbg

I agree that the way the US has up to now fought the war in Iraq has made the war unwinnable. The primary defect in the way the war has been fought by the US is the relentless effort by American Leftists to promote the belief we have lost the Iraq war. Proof or disproof of my claim would be the actual consequences of the American Left shutting up for the next 23 months. After all, the American Left should have realized long before now that we are going to continue to fight the war in Iraq until we win or until Bush leaves office, regardless of what they allege.

If the American Left actually wants the US to win in Iraq, they will shut up for the next 23 months. If they want the US to lose, they will continue their relentless diatribe that the US will lose the war in Iraq.

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ican, Do you understand anything about "democracy?" Probably not, but thought I'd ask anywhos.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I've noticed that you don't post your predictions of lowered death counts any longer. Is it because you got tired of being consistently wrong?

Cycloptichorn

True! That's because the death counts have increased from March up until November. The death count in December was less than in November. I'm waiting for the January death count. I have the posted January death count up to January 28th. If the posted January daily trend holds through the last three days of January, the death toll will be less in January than in December. February's death count will have to be less than January's for me to forecast a decreasing trend.

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Quote:

The primary defect in the way the war has been fought by the US is the relentless effort by American Leftists to promote the belief we have lost the Iraq war.

A ludicrous statement.

The primary defect has been in leadership by the Bush admin. Both in theater, and in their complete and total inability to control the situation at home, by failing to convince large portions of the American public that the war is either worth it or even an action which should have occurred in the first place.

The protests from the left are a consequence of failure by Bush.

Cycloptichorn

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The death count continues to increase because Bush failed to listen to the experts before and during this war. Trying to blame it to the "leftists" for talking about it makes no sense - except to righties. It's about incompetence and mismanagement, and Bush, as we all know, don't listen to the "left" or the polls.

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I've noticed that you don't post your predictions of lowered death counts any longer. Is it because you got tired of being consistently wrong?

Cycloptichorn

True! That's because the death counts have increased from March up until November. The death count in December was less than in November. I'm waiting for the January death count. I have the posted January death count up to January 28th. If the posted January daily trend holds through the last three days of January, the death toll will be less in January than in December. February's death count will have to be less than January's for me to forecast a decreasing trend.

In other words: you're waiting for a "decreasing trend" in death counts to resume posting your predictions.

That's a noble goal. Unlike the "Leftists" who aid and abet the enemy, you help the troops and the United States by only reporting the good news.

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hamburger wrote:

...
am i to understannd that "western leftists" have caused more death and destruction in iraq than the "bush administration" ?

(is this similar to claims that war protesters in the united states caused the united states to withdraw from vietnam ?)
hbg (right now scratching my head and wondering if i didn't understand what ican posted)

No! Western Leftists have caused the MNONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq to cause more death and destruction in Iraq than the Bush Administration.

Yes, war protesters in the US caused the US to withdraw from Vietnam--despite the huge victory of the US in the Tet offensive--and thereby left the MMONM to mass murder about 3 million people in south eastern Asia.

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The increasing death count had nothing to do with the simple fact that our troops are underequipped and trained to fight in a civil war and insurgency. All the leftist talk caused all of it.

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ican711nm wrote:

hamburger wrote:

...
am i to understannd that "western leftists" have caused more death and destruction in iraq than the "bush administration" ?

(is this similar to claims that war protesters in the united states caused the united states to withdraw from vietnam ?)
hbg (right now scratching my head and wondering if i didn't understand what ican posted)

No! Western Leftists have caused the MNONM (i.e., Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) in Iraq to cause more death and destruction in Iraq than the Bush Administration.

Yes, war protesters in the US caused the US to withdraw from Vietnam--despite the huge victory of the US in the Tet offensive--and thereby left the MMONM to mass murder about 3 million people in south eastern Asia.

You're 100% incorrect and historically inaccurate.

The government has no right to wage a war which the people who support it don't support. If the government wishes to engage in warfare, it has the responsibility to present the case for war to the people to decide upon.

The government failed to convince the American public that the Vietnam war was worth the price we were paying for it; thus our withdrawal. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how democracy works, Ican.

Cycloptichorn

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old europe wrote :

Quote:

In other words: you're waiting for a "decreasing trend" in death counts to resume posting your predictions.

and wait , and wait ... and wait , while in the meantime more people die and are being maimed every day .

(sorry for taking your sentence out of context , old europe , but it seems that's what ican is waiting for)
hbg

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
The primary defect in the way the war has been fought by the US is the relentless effort by American Leftists to promote the belief we have lost the Iraq war.

A ludicrous statement.

The protests from the left are a consequence of failure by Bush.

Cycloptichorn

Why do you think it a ludicrous statement?

The protests from the left started when Bush succeeded removing Saddam's regime's. They continued thereafter and celebrated Bush's failures. The protests from the left were not a consequence of failure by Bush. They were a consequence of something else ... to be determined. Shocked

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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

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