THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

The increasing death count had nothing to do with the simple fact that our troops are underequipped and trained to fight in a civil war and insurgency. All the leftist talk caused all of it.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

The primary defect in the way the war has been fought by the US is the relentless effort by American Leftists to promote the belief we have lost the Iraq war.

A ludicrous statement.

The protests from the left are a consequence of failure by Bush.

Cycloptichorn

Why do you think it a ludicrous statement?

The protests from the left started when Bush succeeded removing Saddam's regime's. They continued thereafter and celebrated Bush's failures. The protests from the left were not a consequence of failure by Bush. They were a consequence of something else ... to be determined.

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You're 100% incorrect and historically inaccurate.

The government has no right to wage a war which the people who support it don't support. If the government wishes to engage in warfare, it has the responsibility to present the case for war to the people to decide upon.

In our constitutional republic, the Congress and the President together have the right to wage a war. The only reliable way we know at present to determine what the people really support or do not support are Congressional and Presidential elections. In the last couple of polls, more than 60% of the adult people, allegedly polled at random, do not want the US to fail in Iraq. Were these reliable polls? Damned if I know!

If the government wishes to engage in warfare, it has the responsibility to present the case for war to the people to decide upon.

The Bush administration has repeatedly presented the case for war to the people and the Congress that the Bush administration and the Congress, operating under the "supreme Law of the Land", decided.

Your theories of how our government should operate will have to be written as a proposed amendment to our Constitution, and then proposed by two-thirds of both houses of the Congress, and then adopted as an amendment by three-quarters of the State legislatures or by three-quarters of Conventions called to decide whether to adopt your proposed amendment.

The government failed to convince the American public that the Vietnam war was worth the price we were paying for it; thus our withdrawal.
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That's balderdash! The Congress and the President failed to convince themselves that the Vietnam war was worth the price we were paying for it; thus our withdrawal. Both were wrong because they failed to properly evaluate then current progress in winning the war, and judge the terrible consequences of discontinuing the war: the murder by MMONM of 3 million non-murderers in southeast Asia!


Cycloptichorn

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icann711n wrote:

...The protests from the left were not a consequence of failure by Bush. They were a consequence of something else ... to be determined.

Wrong, they were a consequence of the Bush admin failing to convince a large part of the American public that this was in fact a necessary war.

While there are some who will protest any war, the real protests started up when it became apparent that there were not going to be any WMD found by us in Iraq.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

icann711n wrote:

...The protests from the left were not a consequence of failure by Bush. They were a consequence of something else ... to be determined.

Wrong, they were a consequence of the Bush admin failing to convince a large part of the American public that this was in fact a necessary war.

While there are some who will protest any war, the real protests started up when it became apparent that there were not going to be any WMD found by us in Iraq.

Cycloptichorn

Granted that the American Leftists are a "large part of the American public." Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, the protests against the war by the American Left started long before it was determined that Saddam's regime did not possess ready-to-use WMD. Those Leftists opposed the war in the beginning in March 2003 based on their false allegation that the war was illegal.

ican, Your misstatements about matters of importance shows your inability to keep information straight and honest. The "left" started demonstrating against the war before Bush started the war, and has continued to this day.

Do you think the American Left started protesting against the war before or after Congress passed its October 16, 2002 resolution authorizing the President to go to war if he determined it necessary to protect the security of the American people? If so, please provide some evidence to support your claim.

We have already lost the war; terrorism in Iraq has been increasing for the past four years. There is no way to control this war with 150,000 troops.

What evidence do you have to support these claims? Or are these claims of yours merely what you devoutly wish to be true?

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ican711nm wrote:

Granted that the American Leftists are a "large part of the American public." Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, the protests against the war by the American Left started long before it was determined that Saddam's regime did not possess ready-to-use WMD. Those Leftists opposed the war in the beginning in March 2003 based on their false allegation that the war was illegal.

The left is not some monumental single-headed beast. As I said above, the majority of the American left didn't protest Iraq until after it became apparent how badly we had mistaken the WMD issue.

Evidence? Lack of protests about Afghanistan from the left. There was some, but a tiny amount compared to what would come about Iraq.

Cycloptichorn

Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, the protests against the war by the American Left started long before it was determined that Saddam's regime did not possess ready-to-use WMD.

...washington would have never approved waging war to impose american values on another society .
his closest and most trusted associate , alexander hamilton , advised the president that " every nation has a right to carve out its own happiness in its own way , and it is the height of presumption in another to attempt to fashion its political creed " .

If you can't see it, after four years of increasing violence and mayhem, there's nothing in this world that'll convince you.

You ain't there now mate. That's stale bread.

ican, This is all you need to know:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The February 15, 2003 anti-war protest was a coordinated day of protests across the world against the imminent invasion of Iraq. Millions of people protested in approximately 800 cities around the world. According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.[1][2]

cicerone imposter wrote:

ican, This is all you need to know:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The February 15, 2003 anti-war protest was a coordinated day of protests across the world against the imminent invasion of Iraq. Millions of people protested in approximately 800 cities around the world. According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.[1][2]

Well then, February 15, 2003 certainly came before March 20, 2003; and March 20, 2003 certainly came before it was discovered that Saddam's regime no longer possessed ready-to-use WMD. So I conclude that February 15, 2003 also came before it was discovered that Saddam's regime no longer possessed ready-to-use WMD. Therefore, the alleged millions of Leftist protesters throughout the world protested the war before the war had started and before it was discovered that Saddam's regime no longer possessed ready-to-use WMD. QED

And there are about 8,000 million on earth so even the top estimate, which can be expected to have been exaggerated, is only 3 in 8 hundred which is hardly significant @ 0.3%.

In audience measurement 0.3% counts as zero.

The bottom estimate, which might also be exaggerated, is even more ridiculous. There's more nutcases than that.