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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 01:15 pm
Bush never lies, he is just completely out of touch with reality...
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 03:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, You're impossible!

Thanks for the compliment. However, actually I'm only improbable. Laughing
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 03:17 pm
as previously quoted :

Quote:
President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended
Remarks by the President from the USS Abraham Lincoln
At Sea Off the Coast of San Diego, California


THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all very much. Admiral Kelly, Captain Card, officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans: Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. (Applause.) And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country.


In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty, and for the peace of the world. Our nation and our coalition are proud of this accomplishment -- yet, it is you, the members of the United States military, who achieved it. Your courage, your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other, made this day possible. Because of you, our nation is more secure. Because of you, the tyrant has fallen, and iraq is free .


if iraq is truly free , why do americans still have to die in iraq ?
what kind of a "free" is that ? is there a new interpration of the word "free" that i'm not aware of yet ?

thinking back to the end of WW II , i don't recall that the allies said "germany is free" or anything to that effect . they spoke of the end of hitler's tyranny , i seem to recall - and no allied soliers or germans had to die from war or war-like actions from thereon .
surely , the lessons of WW II haven't been forgotten already ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 03:32 pm
parados wrote:
Bush never lies, he is just completely out of touch with reality...

Maybe!

Regardless, we are still left with the same dilemma.

Shall we stay in Iraq until we succeed and risk never succeeding,
OR,
Shall we leave Iraq and risk a large part of our population being screwed to death?

You guys appear to favor the latter, while I favor the former.

Whether or not Bush is proven no damn good or not we will continue to be left with this dilemma. So I recommend, we set the Bush question aside, and try to resolve our dilemma.

I think there is no escaping the fact that based on their past performance, al-Qaeda will come and mass murder many of us in America (not to mention destroy a lot of our infrastructure), if we leave Iraq before we succeed.

I think there is no escaping the fact that based on our past performance, pacifying al-Qaeda permanently will cost us lots of lives and bucks.

Of course most of us could always capitulate and adopt al-Qaeda's religion including but not limited to the conviction that suicidal mass murder of non-murderers will purchase us entry into paradise.

So what shall it be?

And what the hell, for the sake of argument lets all agree that Bush is no damn good.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 03:36 pm
Ah, for the happiness and the certainties of the "Shock and Awe" days.

Boy, we let off some big bangs then.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 03:39 pm
hamburger wrote:
as previously quoted :

Quote:
President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended
Remarks by the President from the USS Abraham Lincoln
At Sea Off the Coast of San Diego, California


THE PRESIDENT: ... And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country.
...


if iraq is truly free , why do americans still have to die in iraq ?
what kind of a "free" is that ? is there a new interpration of the word "free" that i'm not aware of yet ?

...

Bush blundered several times when he several times failed to choose the correct strategy and tactics for "securing and reconstructing" Iraq.

Why continue to harp on the obvious about Bush? We've got more important work to do: namely figure out how most of us can best survive al-Qaeda.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 04:04 pm
ican, You are dense; the reason we keep on harping on Bush is very simple; he refuses to listen to Americans, the US Congress, and most sane people of this world.

Bush still wants to "succeed" in Iraq - four years and over 3,600 of our military sacrificed their lives for what? More of the same?

Those 3,600 dead is an under-count, because our government doesn't count those who died from injiries in Iraq, but returned home before they died. Added to those casualties are the soldiers who have come home with mental problems - some estimates show 26,000 plus, many of whom the US government is refusing to provide health care. One soldier who earned a purple heart while fighting in Iraq was one of those. He came home with a war related mental illness, and the US government told him he had a "preexisting" mental problem, and refused him further medical care. They even demanded he return a part of his re-up bonus.

You guys are just too ignorant to understand what's really going on; you trust FOX and the Bush gang/criminals too much!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 04:08 pm
Read THIS article. It's on the Nightline report.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 04:41 pm
if indeed "the western nations" need to be concerned about al-qaeda , they probably need to be most concerned about PAKISTAN !
here is a country full of a-q supporters - moving FREELY back and forth betwen pakistan and afghanstan - , a shaky presidency AND the atom-bomb .
it might do well to remember who supplied iran with information on how to develop atomic weapons : a pakistani scientist !

that many iraquis are unhappy with the american occupation is not surprising to me .
years after s-h was toppled , there is still no peace in iraq , terrorists and american troops keep destroying more of the infrastructure , housing ... - what little is left of it - the occupiers can provide little security to ordinary citizens and on it goes ...
it's not surprising to me that ordinary iraqis have little faith in any so-called "security measures" and in the end decide that their only choice is to co-operate with terrorists - or leave the country - which they do every day !

nothing wrong with "staying the course" if it's the right course ... but it seems to become clearer every day that it's not the right course .

imo either the united states has to have enough troops in iraq to secure the borders , provide for security of citizens and provide whatever else is needed for "peace and good government " - or there is little hope of bringing the iraqis onside .

if , indeed , the threat from a-q and other terrorists to the united states is a major one , the current effort will likely not be sufficient to lead to victory over the terrorists - whoever they are .
hbg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 04:50 pm
hbg, That's the catch-22 situation the US is in; we don't have enough troops to make any difference, and 2) the US won't institute the draft even though Bush claims we're fighting for our lives/security.

The Bush rhetoric doesn't fit the actions. Why some people are unable to see through all this b.s. is part of the problem; that's still over 30 percent of Americans. Bush thinks he has a mandate to "stay the course," - until we win.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 05:07 pm
c.i. :
in a minor way , canada is in a similar situation in afghanistan .
our government tells us of the importance of the mission blah , blah , blah
but the reports from the soldiers on the frontline in kandahar tell a different story .
they report that the a-q fighters are moving freely between afghanistan and pakistan , yet the canadians have been told not to step across the border into pakistan !

the canadian troops have actually been instructed by their officers on the ground NOT to touch the opium crops and to avoid destroying the only cashcrop the poor farmers have - yet official policy is to destroy the opium crop !

and the presidents of afghanistan and pakistan accuse each other of harbouring terrorists - of course BOTH countries do harbour terrorists !

(what was the name of the movie ? "it's a mad ,mad world " ? and that was a comedy ! that description should have been reserved for the current world situation !).
hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 05:17 pm
the N.Y. TIMES REPORTS :

Quote:
The Iraqi police are widely thought to be infiltrated by the Mahdi Army and other Shiite militias, as well as by Sunni insurgent groups, all of whom are accused of using their positions to plan and carry out widespread sectarian killings.


i guess that's another sign of progress , better "stay the course" !

see for complete article :
U.S. TROOPS BATTLE IRAQI POLICE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 05:18 pm
The sad part of all this is that it's not only the administration that's wrong-headed, but congress has done nothing to support the mandate of the people, but instead have funded the war in direct scorn of the American People's wishes.

Our governments are broken.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 05:33 pm
Violence around Baghdad kills at least 16
Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:03PM EDT

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Eight people were killed by car bombs in Shi'ite districts of Baghdad on Saturday and eight other Shiites were shot dead in their beds, Iraqi police said.

U.S. forces are targeting al Qaeda militants blamed for stoking sectarian hatred between majority Shi'ite and minority Sunni Arabs. Militants used several women and children as a human shield during a clash north of Baghdad, the military said.

These kind of stories will not go away next week, next month, or next year. People like Bush and ican who think we can win in Iraq doesn't understand the situation. Our biggest handicap is the size of our military.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 06:46 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, You are dense; the reason we keep on harping on Bush is very simple; he refuses to listen to Americans, the US Congress, and most sane people of this world.

Bush still wants to "succeed" in Iraq - four years and over 3,600 of our military sacrificed their lives for what? More of the same?

Those 3,600 dead is an under-count, because our government doesn't count those who died from injiries in Iraq, but returned home before they died. Added to those casualties are the soldiers who have come home with mental problems - some estimates show 26,000 plus, many of whom the US government is refusing to provide health care. One soldier who earned a purple heart while fighting in Iraq was one of those. He came home with a war related mental illness, and the US government told him he had a "preexisting" mental problem, and refused him further medical care. They even demanded he return a part of his re-up bonus.

You guys are just too ignorant to understand what's really going on; you trust FOX and the Bush gang/criminals too much!

You appear to believe that your opinion is unquestionably true. Why? You appear to rely too much on what your favorite sources say is going on, and do little to investigate and analyze whether what these sources say is true or not. You recommend a draft but are unclear what you want drafted people to do. You appear to think that criticizing Bush will solve our dilemma.

For those reasons, I think you are the one who is "dense". All the things you find wrong with Bush have little to do with whether we should stay or leave Iraq, and why. Also your allegation that I am dense and ignorant has little to do with what Americans should want done now.

SO WHICH SHALL IT BE AND WHY DO YOU THINK SO?

Shall we stay in Iraq until we succeed and risk never succeeding,

OR,

Shall we leave Iraq and risk a large part of our population being mass murdered or maimed?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 06:52 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The sad part of all this is that it's not only the administration that's wrong-headed, but congress has done nothing to support the mandate of the people, but instead have funded the war in direct scorn of the American People's wishes.

Our governments are broken.

What was mandated by our people? When was it mandated? How was it mandated?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 07:08 pm
Why bin Laden hates us.

Quote:
Will Bin Laden Win?
Thursday, July 12, 2007
POSTED BY BARNETT R. RUBIN
http://icga.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/pessoptimist-in-istanbul-will-bin-laden.html

Today I am in Istanbul in a hotel overlooking the Sea of Marmora. I am here for -- of all things -- a conference on the Durand Line. Of course it is about much more than the Line itself, demarcated by Sir Henry Mortimer Durand in 1893 as the limit of the dominion of the Amir of Afghanistan.

Today this line through a mountainous, arid, sparsely populated area is regarded by Pakistan, and most of the world, as the international border with Afghanistan, but Afghanistan has never formally recognized it as such. Above all, the people living around the line have never recognized it as a border. They were there before these states. They wonder who gave Durand or anyone in London, Kabul, Delhi, or Islamabad the right to divide them?

There is nowhere more different from the Durand Line than the Sea of Marmora. This morning I walked along the seafront, by a stone wall that once constituted the fortifications of the entry to the Golden Horn and the Strait of Bosporus. Yesterday from the terrace of my hotel, my colleagues and I saw an enormous container ship traveling from the Black Sea through the Strait and outward to the Mediterranean. Would it then cross the Suez canal and enter the Indian Ocean?

The ship was registered with the Maersk shipping line; I remembered seeing the same containers while driving from Kabul to Jalalabad in the spring of 2005 with Omar Zakhilwal, head of the Afghanistan Investment Support Agency. The main road from Kabul to Sarobi was closed for construction, so we had to take the old road, over the Lataband Pass, the same route taken by the Army of the Indus when it retreated under fire from Kabul to Jalalabad in 1841. The Army of the Indus, however, had long since mutated into the Armed Forces of Pakistan, and today most of the traffic was in the other direction. Truck after truck lumbered with full loads of Maersk containers headed for Kabul from the port of Karachi via Peshawar and Jalalabad, carrying, what? -- Ukrainian airplane parts shipped from Odessa (where my great-grandfather was born) through the Strait of Bosporus and on through the Sea of Marmora?

So much for the unchanging Afghan frontier. Amir Abdul Rahman Khan, during whose reign (1880-1901) the Durand Line was demarcated, decided against building roads through the country's passes, as the same roads that facilitated trade facilitated conquest as well. Afghanistan's isolation protected both his rule -- and the British Empire in India. Britain, which subsidized the Amir's government and army to assure that it could control the territory on the frontier, forbade Kabul to welcome any foreign legation but one from Delhi. The Amir depicted his realm as a just Islamic order under his command:

But to the British this isolated Afghanistan state with a subsidized army fulfilled the function of a buffer state: keeping Russia far from their Empire.

The British and Russian governments demarcated the rest of the country's borders and formalized their agreement in the 1907 Anglo-Russian Convention on Persia, Afghanistan, and Tibet.

This Treaty was an part of the same process that Usama Bin Laden evoked in his warning to the United States on October 7, 2001. Seated not far from the Durand Line before an outcropping of the mountains of Afghanistan, whose name and history he did not mention, the Amir of al-Qa'ida informed his global audience:

What the United States tastes today is a very small thing compared to what we have tasted for tens of years. Our nation has been tasting this humiliation and contempt for more than 80 years.

What was he talking about? He was talking about the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), in which "THE BRITISH EMPIRE, FRANCE, ITALY, JAPAN, GREECE, ROUMANIA and the SERB-CROAT-SLOVENE STATE, of the one part, and TURKEY,of the other part" agreed to the demarcation of today's Republic of Turkey.

Lausanne followed on the Treaty of Versailles (1919), which separated most of the Ottoman Empire from Anatolia. Together these treaties abolished the Islamic caliphate, which had been claimed for centuries by the Ottoman Sultan and recognized by most Sunni Muslims. The Treaty of Lausanne stipulated:

No power or jurisdiction in political, legislative or administrative matters shall be exercised outside Turkish territory by the Turkish Government or authorities, for any reason whatsoever, over the nationals of a territory placed under the sovereignty or protectorate of the other Powers signatory of the present Treaty, or over the nationals of a territory detached from Turkey.

It is understood that the spiritual attributions of the Moslem religious authorities are in no way infringed.

The division of the Islamic umma, the Muslim community, into nation states by the European colonial powers the better to dominate them and nullify the temporal power of the Islamic caliphate is at the heart of Bin Laden's grievances against the contemporary world order. Destruction of the caliphate based in Istanbul prepared the ground, in his view, for the catastrophe of the Palestinians, sanctions and war against Iraq, and the "occupation of the Land of Muhammad" by "infidel troops."

Though Bin Laden mentioned neither Afghanistan nor Pakistan, al-Qaida respects the border dividing these two states no more than it does the State of Israel or the secular Republic of Turkey. All are equally products of aggression against the Muslims.

It is no coincidence that al-Qaida, though led and conceived by Arabs, was founded in these borderlands. To Westerners it may appear that Bin Laden is now trapped in an isolated region. But this region, never fully integrated into the modern system of states, provides an appropriate seat for this transnational insurgency against that very system.

And as the itinerary of the containers shows, that region is no longer the isolated backwater it remains in the National Geographic mind. While in the days of Abdul Rahman Khan only British India was permitted a legation in Kabul, today the capital of the Mughal Emperor Babur is a major outpost of the UN, NATO, the US Central Command, and the European Union, with enormous embassies of every major country under construction. The people whom Amir Abdul Rahman Khan informed about his rule with an illustrated map are now more likely to have traveled abroad than Americans, if not usually as tourists, and listen to far more international news in several languages.

Their country, which used to rely on subsistence farming, has become a commercial single-crop economy. Opium poppy -- like sugar cane in Cuba, rubber in Liberia, or tea in Sri Lanka -- encroaches further every year on land used for subsistence farming and traditional horticulture. Traffickers and traders from all major markets reserve their share of the Afghan product through futures markets. Every family includes migrants in Karachi, Iran, or the states of the Persian Gulf. The remittances sent by these workers finance many new houses and shops, while the workers, separated for years at a time from family, tribe, and village, seek refuge and meaning in mosques frequented by global preachers. Cash, once rare, reaches the remotest villages through this global trade and the omnipresent hawala system, which links Afghans to global electronic banking networks through mobile phones and itinerant traders.

It is common enough to observe that globalization has transformed sovereignty, transferring functions of states to larger organizations like the European Union and shattering the weak institutions of others. It is less commonly realized that Bin Laden's vision of the caliphate constitutes a revolutionary response to globalization. The states drawn by imperial powers on the territory of the Islamic umma have excluded the Palestinians from nationhood and placed one of Islam's holiest places under Israeli control. The zone from where Bin Laden and his Egyptian deputy, Ayman al-Zawihiri now issue their pronouncements symbolizes how the same process of state making has divided and ill-served the Pashtuns.

The dialectic of terrorism and counter-terrorism has transformed the tribal areas. In 2003, when US pressure to search for the al-Qaida leadership led General Pervez Musharraf to send the Army of Pakistan (a direct descendant of the Army of the Indus) into the Momand Tribal Agency, elders awoke officials in Kabul with midnight calls -- Pakistan had invaded "Afghanistan." For in these elders' minds, while the Afghan state administration ended at the Durand Line, Afghanistan did not.

Islamabad's invocation of US pressure to fence and even mine that border has led elders to tell President Hamid Karzai that if he allows Pashtuns to be divided in this way, his name will be remembered with shame. The Afghan Army has responded by firing on the Pakistan Army, the same Pakistan Army that is fighting al-Qaida. The lives of the people need a soft border, but Washington's counter-terrorism needs a hard one.

In my Istanbul hotel room, as sea traffic traverses the Bosporus outside my window, al-Jazeera English broadcasts the news: the battle of the Red Mosque in Islamabad; demonstrations in Bajaur; the anniversary of the latest war in Lebanon; the ongoing massacres in Iraq and Sudan; more suicide bombers in Afghanistan. And on CNN and Bloomberg I see the growth of the US trade deficit, the fall of the dollar against other currencies, and the unstoppable growth of the US debt, as our government sells securities to China to cover the costs of the war in Iraq.

Amir Abdul Rahman Khan used the British subsidy to build his army; he used his army to build his revenues; he used his revenues to build a justice system; and the justice system enabled his people -- those he had not massacred or exiled -- to till their lands in peace. He died in his bed in 1901 bequeathing to his son both rulership and a surplus of 40 million rupees in the national treasury.

This Circle of Justice, first described in an Islamic text of the eighth century, has for centuries constituted the model of governance for the people of South and West Asia; today the Afghan Government uses it to describe the goals of its Afghanistan National Development Strategy.

But in response to the challenge of Bin Laden, rather than building its army, the US has mobilized thousands of private contractors and exhausted its army in the fatal venture of Iraq. Rather than calling our people to fight and sacrifice, our government cut the taxes of those most able to afford to pay and financed its military ventures with subsidies, not from an imperial hegemon, but from financial markets that are far more arbitrary than Lord Curzon. To retain its monopoly on power in the face of failure, the ruling party has undermined the system of justice. We could have responded more wisely to Bin Laden's challenge, but we have drawn this circle of injustice around ourselves.

In 1919, Abdul Rahman's grandson, Amanullah Khan, made Afghanistan independent and renounced the British subsidy. Less than ten years later, he was overthrown. Amanullah had attempted a grand transformation for which he had no resources. His efforts to raise taxes and strengthen the state provoked a peasant uprising that brought a Tajik commander to power, ending the dynasty of Amir Abdul Rahman Khan. Soon Pashtun tribes from the same areas now hosting Bin Laden and Zawahiri descended on Kabul to loot it and install a new, much weakened king.

Neither Bin Laden nor the neo-Taliban of the tribal zone are Pashtun nationalists -- that ideology serves the interest of a state in Kabul and politicians in Peshawar and Quetta. But the ideology of the caliphate provides another vehicle for the grievances and ambitions of people whom the nation-state system always served poorly.

In Afghanistan and Pakistan, in Iraq, Palestine, and Lebanon, the "international community," acting unilaterally, bilaterally, and multilaterally, is trying to shore up, strengthen, and create states to provide peace and stability. Some, even many, people of those areas long to become full citizens of states that protect their rights and provide services. But for many others, it is harder to imagine that they might one day be citizens of an effective accountable nation-state than that they might be joined with their fellow Muslims in a renewed caliphate. Somewhere in the mountains of the land its inhabitants call Pakhtunkhwa, Bin Laden is waiting.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 07:08 pm
The mandate was heard by most people when the GOP led congress changed last November. You probably didn't hear it, because your head was up your arse. Bush didn't hear it either; same problem as yours.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 07:16 pm
Our main questions:

Why - if 60-70% of Americans in all polls want our troops out of Iraq - don't we bring them out of Iraq? Why isn't there a massive national demand to bring them home like there was in Vietnam?
Do you feel betrayed by the Democrats who were elected in 2006 to change course and end the war, but instead have failed miserably to do anything but play political games jockeying for position in the 2008 Presidential election, and whose 100 day promise of accomplishment has also failed miserably?
Why, if the only way we can save our troops from being further murdered and mutilated and bring them home is to impeach Bush and Cheney, shouldn't there a national movement to impeach Bush and Cheney, and why isn't there one?
The King of Saudi Arabia, our strongest ally in the Middle East, has publicly said America is the cause of the destabilization in Iraq and the Middle East because of Bush's illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. So why do we not give back the oil, REPLACE our troops with a G8 international force whom the Iraqis trust and were business partners with before we invaded (Russia, China, France, etc. who Iraq had given all the oil leases to before we invaded), and bring our troops home by Labor Day?
(92% of all political persuasions, including those who at first favored the war, want this "Give Back the Oil - Replace our Troops with G8 Forces" Exit Plan enacted immediately (click here for Plan.)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 07:18 pm
Poll: 63% want all troops home by end of '08 and set a timetable to bring them home by the end of next year,
0 Replies
 
 

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