THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

When bin Laden speaks, everybody listens - it seems. When Bush speaks....it's the same "stay the course."

Bin Laden appears in new al-Qaida video

By OMAR SINAN, Associated Press Writer
27 minutes ago

CAIRO, Egypt - A new al-Qaida videotape posted Sunday on a militant Web site featured a short, undated clip of a weary-looking Osama bin Laden praising martyrdom.

The bin Laden clip, which lasted less than a minute, was part of a 40-minute video featuring purported al-Qaida fighters in Afghanistan paying tribute to fellow militants who have been killed in the country.

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ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, You are dense; the reason we keep on harping on Bush is very simple; he refuses to listen to Americans, the US Congress, and most sane people of this world.

Bush still wants to "succeed" in Iraq - four years and over 3,600 of our military sacrificed their lives for what? More of the same?

Those 3,600 dead is an under-count, because our government doesn't count those who died from injiries in Iraq, but returned home before they died. Added to those casualties are the soldiers who have come home with mental problems - some estimates show 26,000 plus, many of whom the US government is refusing to provide health care. One soldier who earned a purple heart while fighting in Iraq was one of those. He came home with a war related mental illness, and the US government told him he had a "preexisting" mental problem, and refused him further medical care. They even demanded he return a part of his re-up bonus.

You guys are just too ignorant to understand what's really going on; you trust FOX and the Bush gang/criminals too much!

You appear to believe that your opinion is unquestionably true. Why? You appear to rely too much on what your favorite sources say is going on, and do little to investigate and analyze whether what these sources say is true or not. You recommend a draft but are unclear what you want drafted people to do. You appear to think that criticizing Bush will solve our dilemma.

For those reasons, I think you are the one who is "dense". All the things you find wrong with Bush have little to do with whether we should stay or leave Iraq, and why. Also your allegation that I am dense and ignorant has little to do with what Americans should want done now.

SO WHICH SHALL IT BE AND WHY DO YOU THINK SO?

Shall we stay in Iraq until we succeed and risk never succeeding,

OR,

Shall we leave Iraq and risk a large part of our population being mass murdered or maimed?

In my using days, I would have asked "Can I have some of what you are smoking?" In all due respect, you seem to be out of touch with reality.

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Iraq violence: Monitoring the surge
An extra 30,000 US troops have been deployed in Iraq, mainly in and around the capital Baghdad, since the launch of the security drive, or "surge", in February.
The BBC World Service is monitoring its effects, week by week, by looking at casualty figures, the pressure on hospitals and quality of life for ordinary civilians.

The graphics and analysis are based on figures from the US and Iraqi authorities, Baghdad's hospitals and three families from different neighbourhoods in the capital.

SECURITY

The US is becoming resigned to the fight against insurgency possibly lasting a decade or more.

Its head of forces in Iraq, Gen David Petraeus, told the BBC's John Simpson this week that the average counter-insurgency lasted nine or 10 years.

But he also suggested there was scope to reduce troop numbers as long as areas that the coalition had gained could be held by Iraqi forces.

The US says the surge is beginning to show signs of progress, with areas such as parts of Baquba now under American control.

But once our troops leave this area, violence will again visit.

However, Gen Petraeus says it could take until September to gauge its full effects.

General Petraeus is ignoring the big picture; a) there aren't enough Iraqi security troops to take over, b) they are not trained or equipped to take over, and c) the Iraqi security troops are being infiltrated by Sunni insurgents.

During the seven-day period to 11 July there were some 575 violent deaths in the country - up by about 80 on the previous week.

Again, civilians bore the brunt of the violence with 377 deaths - topping last week's figure.

Military casualties, both American and Iraqi, were also up, as was the number of Iraqi police who were killed.

The BBC's Diplomatic Correspondent, Jonathan Marcus, says this reflects the dramatically increased level of US offensive operations.

However, the 51 reported deaths among insurgents were considerably lower than the previous week's 175.

Fuel shortages remain a major problem for Iraqis, with long power cuts and fuel queues a common feature of civilian life, particularly in Baghdad.

Over two million Iraqis have fled Iraq, the majority of them are the professionals Iraq needs to rebuild their country. They also have over 2.5 million displaced in Iraq. Their recruitment of security police and military are not making much progress, and recruitment becomes harder as more of them are killed.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

When bin Laden speaks, everybody listens - it seems. When Bush speaks....it's the same "stay the course."

Bin Laden appears in new al-Qaida video

By OMAR SINAN, Associated Press Writer
27 minutes ago

CAIRO, Egypt - A new al-Qaida videotape posted Sunday on a militant Web site featured a short, undated clip of a weary-looking Osama bin Laden praising martyrdom.

The bin Laden clip, which lasted less than a minute, was part of a 40-minute video featuring purported al-Qaida fighters in Afghanistan paying tribute to fellow militants who have been killed in the country.

By all accounts it isn't new content in the vid although the vid was 'made' in the last four weeks. I hope he's dead.

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It matters little if bin Laden is dead or not. It would be nice because of 9/11 but it will change nothing.

As long as Western soldiers are stationed in or occupy Muslim lands there will be Al Qaeda type groups attacking us there or in Europe and America.

We have to understand that is Muslim land and we have no business being there. They hate us and the Jews there as much as we would hate a Muslim army invading Mexico or Central America.

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Another fine consequence of Bush's War.

Quote:

"The government of Saddam used to protect us," he says. "Mr. Bush doesn't protect us. The Shia don't protect us. No Christian was persecuted under Saddam for being Christian."

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L.A. Times Reports Shocking Testimony in Atrocity Trial
L.A. Times Reports Shocking Testimony in Atrocity Trial
Published: July 15, 2007
E & P

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. -- A Marine corporal said Marines in his unit began routinely beating Iraqis after officers ordered them to "crank up the violence level," the Los Angeles Times reported.

Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo testified Saturday at the murder trial of Cpl. Trent D. Thomas.

"We were told to crank up the violence level," the newspaper quoted Lopezromo as saying in testimony for the defense.

When a juror asked for further explanation, Lopezromo said: "We beat people, sir."

Weeks after allegedly being criticized by officers for not being tough enough, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman went out late one night to find and kill a suspected insurgent in the village of Hamandiya near the Abu Ghraib prison. The Marines and corpsman were from 2nd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment.

Lopezromo said the man was known to his neighbors as the "prince of jihad," and had been arrested several times and later released by the Iraqi legal system.

Unable to find him, the Marines and corpsman dragged another man from his house, fatally shot him, and then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to make it appear he had been killed in a shootout, according to court testimony.

Four Marines and the corpsman, initially charged with murder in the April 2006 killing, have pleaded guilty to reduced charges and been given jail sentences ranging from 10 months to eight years. Thomas, 25, from St. Louis, pleaded guilty but withdrew his plea and is the first defendant to go to court-martial.

Lopezromo, who was not part of the squad on its late-night mission, said he saw nothing wrong with what Thomas did.

"I don't see it as an execution, sir," he told the judge, according to the newspaper. "I see it as killing the enemy."

He said Marines consider all Iraqi men part of the insurgency.

"Because of the way they live, the clans, they're all in it together," he said.

Lopezromo and two other Marines were charged in August with assaulting an Iraqi two weeks before the killing that led to charges against Thomas and the others. Charges against all three were later dropped.

Thomas' attorneys have said he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury from his combat duty in Fallujah in 2004. They have argued that Thomas believed he was following a lawful order to get tougher with suspected insurgents.

Prosecution witnesses testified that Thomas shot the 52-year-old man at point-blank range after he had already been shot by other Marines and was lying on the ground.

Lopezromo said a procedure called "dead-checking" was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified.

"If somebody is worth shooting once, they're worth shooting twice," he said.

The jury comprises three officers and six enlisted personnel, all of whom have served in Iraq. The trial was set to resume Monday.

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Most Outside Insurgents in Iraq Come from Saudi Arabia
Did Military and Media Mislead Us? Most Outside Insurgents in Iraq Come from Saudi Arabia
By E&P Staff
Published: July 15, 2007

For years, polls have shown that very large numbers of Americans continue to falsely believe that some of the 9/11 hijackers came from Iraq. In reality, the overwhelming number hailed from the land of a U.S. ally, Saudi Arabia.

Now it turns out that Saudi Arabia is also home to the largest number of so-called "foreign fighters" in Iraq, despite administration efforts -- aided by many in the media -- to paint Iran and Syria as the main outside culprits there.

The Los Angeles Times reports today that according to a senior U.S. military officer and Iraqi lawmakers, about 45% of all foreign militants "targeting U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians and security forces are from Saudi Arabia." Only 15% are from Syria and Lebanon; and 10% are from North Africa. This is based on official U.S. military figures made available to newspaper by the senior officer.

Nearly half of the 135 foreigners in U.S. detention facilities in Iraq are Saudis, he said.

"Fighters from Saudi Arabia are thought to have carried out more suicide bombings than those of any other nationality, said the senior U.S. officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitivity," the Times' Ned Parker writes. "It is apparently the first time a U.S. official has given such a breakdown on the role played by Saudi nationals in Iraq's Sunni Arab insurgency.

"He said 50% of all Saudi fighters in Iraq come here as suicide bombers. In the last six months, such bombings have killed or injured 4,000 Iraqis.

"The situation has left the U.S. military in the awkward position of battling an enemy whose top source of foreign fighters is a key ally that at best has not been able to prevent its citizens from undertaking bloody attacks in Iraq, and at worst shares complicity in sending extremists to commit attacks against U.S. forces, Iraqi civilians and the Shiite-led government in Baghdad."

Yet hardly a word has been directed at Saudi Arabia (which also drew relatively little criticism after 9/11) by the White House and Pentagon.

The full story is at www.latimes.com.

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New 'Green Zone' Dress Code: Flak Vest and Helmet
McClatchy Gets Scoop on New 'Green Zone' Dress Code: Flak Vest and Helmet
By E&P Staff
Published: July 15, 2007

The dress code at the Blue Star restaurant located within Baghdad's relatively protected Green Zone now calls for vest and hat, McClatchy Mike Drummond writes from that city today. "Flak vest and Kevlar helmet, to be precise," he adds.

Drummond explained that a State Department order earlier this week, which he obtained, telling its 1000 personnel to wear armor was considered a "security breach" by officials. It was sent after 35 rockets or mortars landed in the Green Zone in one day.

He also revealed that a U.S. soldier had told him that at least four mortar rounds hit inside the Green Zone about 1:30 p.m. Saturday, killing two Iraqi civilians.

"As a result of the recent increase of indirect fire attacks on the International Zone, outdoor movement is restricted to a minimum," the order states. "Remain within a hardened structure to the maximum extent possible and strictly avoid congregating outdoors. Personal protective equipment (PPE) is mandatory until further notice.

"Public places that are not in a hardened structure - such as the Blue Star Restaurant - should be frequented only in conjunction with the use of your PPE."

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What a shock the Saudi's are still in the drivers seat. Mad

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Xingu: It matters little if bin Laden is dead or not. It would be nice because of 9/11 but it will change nothing.

As long as Western soldiers are stationed in or occupy Muslim lands there will be Al Qaeda type groups attacking us there or in Europe and America.

We have to understand that is Muslim land and we have no business being there. They hate us and the Jews there as much as we would hate a Muslim army invading Mexico or Central America.

This is the underlying problem with our occupation of Iraq; we're not welcomed. Bush and Petraeus doesn't understand the most basic of the issues that continues to create and exacerbate violence. Their recruitment is almost automatic; they have more volunteers than our country will ever see; their recruitment is upwards, and ours is downwards - even with a $20,000 recruitment bonus. Stay the course is a losing proposition.

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White House holds firm on Iraq strategy By CALVIN WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 31 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The White House is rejecting as premature a plan by two senior Republican senators to restrict the mission of U.S. troops in Iraq.

ADVERTISEMENT

President Bush's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, said Sunday the administration has a "very orderly process" set out for reviewing whether its Iraq strategy is working and that should be allowed to play out.

Asked in a broadcast interview whether Bush could live with the plan offered by Sens. John Warner of Virginia and Richard Lugar of Indiana, Hadley said, "No."

Warner and Lugar proposed legislation Friday that would give Bush until mid-October to submit a plan to limit the military mission in Iraq to protecting borders, fighting terrorists, protecting U.S. assets and training Iraqi forces.

Hadley said Bush is sticking to his plan to take stock of progress in Iraq in September and decide on a course of action from there, without conditions.

"They've done a useful service in indicating the kinds of things that we should be thinking about," Hadley said of the senators. "But the time to begin that process is September.

It's now been over four years, and they want until September to "begin the process." That probably means four more years of sacrifice without any goals, but to make Halliburton richer.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

The mandate was heard by most people when the GOP led congress changed last November. You probably didn't hear it, because your head was up your arse. Bush didn't hear it either; same problem as yours.

Pardon my arse, with my head up it, but what was the people's mandate? Or less picturesquely put, what the hell was in the Democratic platform that you think was mandated?

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ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
The mandate was heard by most people when the GOP led congress changed last November. You probably didn't hear it, because your head was up your arse. Bush didn't hear it either; same problem as yours.

Pardon my arse, with my head up it, but what was the people's mandate? Or less picturesquely put, what the hell was in the Democratic platform that you think was mandated?

Get us out of Iraq.

Cycloptichorn

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Poll: 63% want all troops home by end of '08 and set a timetable to bring them home by the end of next year,[/color]

The end of next year is December 31, 2008. You posted Susan Page's article--updated on February 13, 2007--on July 14, 2007.

I want the troops home
You want the troops home
All God's children want the troops home!

Duh!

Under what particular conditions do each of us of the 63% want the troops home?

You don't know, do you?

Neither do the pollsters know!

Neither does Congress know!

These incompetents are going to have to decide that for themselves!

By the way, the U.S. Constitution does not delegate the power to polls to determine how our government shall secure our "Rights" to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
The mandate was heard by most people when the GOP led congress changed last November. You probably didn't hear it, because your head was up your arse. Bush didn't hear it either; same problem as yours.

Pardon my arse, with my head up it, but what was the people's mandate? Or less picturesquely put, what the hell was in the Democratic platform that you think was mandated?

Get us out of Iraq.

Cycloptichorn

I cannot find anywhere in the Democratic Patform for the 2006 election where it specifies either when or what their cconditions are for getting us out of Iraq.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Xingu: It matters little if bin Laden is dead or not. It would be nice because of 9/11 but it will change nothing.

As long as Western soldiers are stationed in or occupy Muslim lands there will be Al Qaeda type groups attacking us there or in Europe and America.

We have to understand that is Muslim land and we have no business being there. They hate us and the Jews there as much as we would hate a Muslim army invading Mexico or Central America.

This is the underlying problem with our occupation of Iraq; we're not welcomed. Bush and Petraeus doesn't understand the most basic of the issues that continues to create and exacerbate violence. Their recruitment is almost automatic; they have more volunteers than our country will ever see; their recruitment is upwards, and ours is downwards - even with a $20,000 recruitment bonus. Stay the course is a losing proposition.

Yes, probably among other things, al-Qaeda hates the West for conquering many many years ago the preceding Arab conquest of the West.

However, the fundamental problem is that al-Qaeda is increasingly successful in convincing employed educated Arab youth that they can purchase entry into paradise by suicidally mass murdering Muslim and later American non-murderers.

Solution: Exterminate al-Qaeda or run for our lives!

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You just don't understand, do you ican. You can never, ever exterminate AQ or organizations like them as long as we are occupying or keeping our soldiers in Muslim land. So if you insist on saying in Iraq for no other purpose than to exterminate AQ we will be there forever.

And how long do you think China and Japan will pay for it?

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GUESS FOR WHOM THIS IS POSTED Smile

Quote:

http://www.eagle-min.com/faq/faq85.htm
The United States ranks 17th in average life expectancy on a list of 33 developed nations, while Japan holds the lead, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported yesterday.

The average U.S. life expectancy of 75 years trails Japan's life expectancy by 4.1 years, but beats the lowest of the group, Hungary, by more than five years. The average Hungarian lives 69.7 years, the CDC said.

The United States also ranked near the middle of the 32 nations in death rates from all causes; 828.4 deaths are reported in the United States for each 100,000 people each year. Japan was best at 628.8, and Romania was worst at 1,242.

The leading cause of death in the United States, heart disease, hits harder here than in other countries. The U.S. mortality rate from heart disease was 382 per 100,000 per year for men and 214 for women, compared with 339 and 206 in the other 32 developed countries.

Throughout the 33 countries, heart disease accounted for 30 percent of all deaths, with cancer causing 21 percent and stroke causing 14 percent.
The CDC study included countries defined as developed according to a 1963 United Nations standard pegged to reproductive rates: countries where the average woman has fewer than two daughters who, themselves, survive their childbearing years. Such areas include the United States and Canada, the Soviet Union, most of Europe, some Latin American nations, Japan and Australia.

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xingu wrote:

You just don't understand, do you ican. You can never, ever exterminate AQ or organizations like them as long as we are occupying or keeping our soldiers in Muslim land. So if you insist on saying in Iraq for no other purpose than to exterminate AQ we will be there forever.

And how long do you think China and Japan will pay for it?

You posted:

Quote:

You can never, ever exterminate AQ or organizations like them as long as we are occupying or keeping our soldiers in Muslim land.

"Never" is a hell of a long time!

Al-Qaeda is daily suicidally mass murdering Muslim non-murderers in Iraq.

What makes you think these non-murdering Muslims will not begin to start mass murdering al-Qaeda in Iraq?

Whoops! They have already started mass murdering al-Qaeda in Iraq.

When the US previously pulled out of countries (e.g., Lebanon, Sudan, Saudi Arabia) in which suicidal mass murderers had found sanctuary, al-Qaeda did not cease its suicidal mass murderings. On the contrary al-Qaeda increased them. Furthermore, al-Qaeda ridiculed the US for pulling out.

Your here stated unsupported proposition is at best a failure to look at and understand al-Qaeda's actual history of statements and actions. At worst it's your own programmed by others belief system--a strange kind of contradictory sectarian albeit secular religous system.

Al-Qaeda has stated it and acted it as plainly as one can state it and act it. They have declared their intention to establish a worldwide caliphate within which you are either a practicing Muslim, as they define that, or you are dead meat.

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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

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