Pit bull kills 5-year-old girl.

Lord Ellpus wrote:

16?

23 is confusing, as that's a puppy.

Quite a few of those are mastiff or mastiff cross. There are a few staffy/crosses as well.

Many of those are boxers too.

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You can see what they are by clicking on the photos. Many of them were mentioned by farmerman, can't remember if it was in this thread or the other one.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Slappy Doo Hoo wrote:
See if you can pick out the one pit bull:

http://www.nokillnow.com/PitbullFindIT.html

Daym, I failed miserably. I went for the bloodhound or the other blood thing. I always thought it's the nose thing - like the Target dog has. Strange.

You are not wrong entirely. That my dear is a bull terrier... a type of "pit bull" dog.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Lord Ellpus wrote:
16?

23 is confusing, as that's a puppy.

Quite a few of those are mastiff or mastiff cross. There are a few staffy/crosses as well.

Many of those are boxers too.

...And I should have read the stuff at the top. Only one is a boxer because there are no crosses. Duh.

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Just a side note in a thread about an issue I've got conflicted feelings about -- though I'm convinced that banning of a breed is neither a satisfactory nor a realistic action. Since some municipalities already have tried, I guess we'll see, but, as has been noted, enforcing a ban on "pitbull-like" (as the legislation in Denver and likely elsewhere has had it) are many.

Was at the dog park earlier today with my two mutts when a woman with her 3-year-old comes trundling in with her Chow-Chow on a leash and a cell phone in her hand. The dog never came off leash, the kid was bundled up in the sort of bulky winter clothing that most herding dogs instantly find suspicious. The kid was running amok in the park, sprinting here and there, yelling, throwing things. Woman is still on the cell phone.

I led my mutts in a different direction because I've had problems with this sort of situation before. One of our dogs (a lab/border collie/mystery meat mix) is very affectionate and enthusiastic, and likes to run up to people. The other (a heeler cross, probably with husky, possibly with German Shepherd) has always been suspicious of children, and when we got him as a 12-week-old pup was mortally terrified of little boys. He's also very protective of the lab cross, whom he essentially raised.

So the lab mix likes to run up to kids, they freak out and shriek and go running, and the other dog sees it as threatening behavior and tries to go play policeman. He's pretty much a display kind of guy -- growling, barking, hackles, and the like, and he did once corner an "intruder" (actually an overzealous religious type) on our enclosed porch for a couple of minutes without incident, but I wouldn't put it past him to bite if things got out of hand. For this reason, he never goes off leash outside the house/fenced yard except at fenced in designated off leash parks.

Anyway, this little brat is running around screaming, I'm keeping my dogs at a safe distance to avoid incident, but naturally the kid gets tangled up with someone's big dumb Labrador and gets knocked down and starts wailing. The mother finally gets off the phone and goes to scoop up the kid (letting go of the leash on the Chow, who immediately gets into a minor scrap with a smaller dog nearby), and the lady starts yelling at the owner of the Lab.

It dismayed me to think that anything that happened to that kid there would have been the fault of the dog involved (and the dog's owner) in the eyes of the law.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
Lord Ellpus wrote:
16?

23 is confusing, as that's a puppy.

Quite a few of those are mastiff or mastiff cross. There are a few staffy/crosses as well.

Many of those are boxers too.

...And I should have read the stuff at the top. Only one is a boxer because there are no crosses. Duh.

You and me both, Bella. I just leapt in and thought it was a quiz!
At least I found the pitbull, but failed miserably on quite a few others.
When it says there are no crosses, they are ALL crosses, somewhere along the line. It maybe several generations back, but I bet quite a few were crossed with boxers (who are a cross themselves), staffy's (so are they) etc etc.

Actually, the only domesticated dog that you'll find in any great numbers, that has NEVER been crossed with anything.....(not by us humans, anyway) is.............the Greyhound.

My son had to do a big project on genetics as part of his Biology degree, and chose to do dogs. I have a fascinating article that he gave me about all this, taken from the National Geographic.
I'll try to find a link.

For instance.....If I remember correctly, the Mastiff was crossed with the Greyhound...and produced the..........

Great Dane!

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I cannot understand how some people do not see the value in at least trying to breed dangerous breeds out of existence. It's not like killing actual dogs. Just eliminating their breed.
Recounting the stupidity of the owners of killer dogs does not in any way justify the continuing existence among humans (and among children especially) of such animals

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I'm not suggesting that i can offer a solution to these problems, but PPD is pointing out graphically what others have said here--the problem is the responsible (or irresponsible) human, and not the dog.

One of our dogs is a Heinz 57 type of dog, with noticeable Pomeranian traits (originally bred as guard dogs, and not lap dogs) and some kind of bull dog or bull terrier--she's the dog in the avatar photo, which doesn't show her bowed front legs, her deep chest, and her neck--which widens from the skull back to the top of the shoulders. She only weighs in at just over 25 lbs., but she is built like a bull dog at the front end, and if she ever latches on to another dog, she is liable to do some serious damage.

She is also "fearless." Actually, fear plays a big part in her character--she fears and distrusts large dogs--but her reaction is typically canine, she will offer to attack any dog toward who she displays mistrust or fear. I've seen her go after an Irish wolfhoud, a dog which probably weighed in at six times or more her weight. That dog was basically good natured, you could see that (although owner had no business letting the dog run off leash in a crowded park), so it was surprised, and backed off. People have pointed out that the wolfhound could easily have killed her--but that's not my point. My point is that if i didn't keep her on the leash in all situations in which it were inappropriate to let her run off leash, and if i didn't keep an eye on her, that could have been a tragic incident.

I always keep an eye on her, and won't allow her to approach other dogs unless i am really convinced it is safe, and then i keep her on a short leach. Usually i tell other dog owners that the blond (Mr. Bailey) is friendly, and that the redhead (Miss Cleo) is not, which is why i'm going to keep her on a short leash. PPD's story of the goofy broad on the cell phone just appals me. Walking a dog while gabbing on a phone is as stupid and dangerous as driving while yakking on the phone. Walking a dog in populated areas requires just as much of your attention, and as responsible an attitude as driving in heavy traffic.

I have little doubt that Miss Cleo could (and likely would in a tragic situation) do a serious injury to a dog twice her size--fortunately, small children frighten her, but she reacts by running away, and otherwise, ignores children. I don't want to find out. If anything happens to her, or another dog, it would be my fault.

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patiodog wrote:

Was at the dog park earlier today with my two mutts when a woman with her 3-year-old comes trundling in with her Chow-Chow on a leash and a cell phone in her hand. The dog never came off leash, the kid was bundled up in the sort of bulky winter clothing that most herding dogs instantly find suspicious. The kid was running amok in the park, sprinting here and there, yelling, throwing things. Woman is still on the cell phone.

I led my mutts in a different direction because I've had problems with this sort of situation before. One of our dogs (a lab/border collie/mystery meat mix) is very affectionate and enthusiastic, and likes to run up to people. The other (a heeler cross, probably with husky, possibly with German Shepherd) has always been suspicious of children, and when we got him as a 12-week-old pup was mortally terrified of little boys. He's also very protective of the lab cross, whom he essentially raised.

So the lab mix likes to run up to kids, they freak out and shriek and go running, and the other dog sees it as threatening behavior and tries to go play policeman. He's pretty much a display kind of guy -- growling, barking, hackles, and the like, and he did once corner an "intruder" (actually an overzealous religious type) on our enclosed porch for a couple of minutes without incident, but I wouldn't put it past him to bite if things got out of hand. For this reason, he never goes off leash outside the house/fenced yard except at fenced in designated off leash parks.

Anyway, this little brat is running around screaming, I'm keeping my dogs at a safe distance to avoid incident, but naturally the kid gets tangled up with someone's big dumb Labrador and gets knocked down and starts wailing. The mother finally gets off the phone and goes to scoop up the kid (letting go of the leash on the Chow, who immediately gets into a minor scrap with a smaller dog nearby), and the lady starts yelling at the owner of the Lab.

It dismayed me to think that anything that happened to that kid there would have been the fault of the dog involved (and the dog's owner) in the eyes of the law.

I don't think a three year old has the capacity to understand how his behavior could affect a dog. I think it is a bit far reaching to call a three year old a brat for portraying normal three year old behavior. It is quite normal and the appropriate place for a three year old to run around in.

If anyone was behaving inappropriately it was his mom not watching for potential danger for the child.

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Those preso canarios are even more dangerous than pits.

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Easy, linkat. Any three-year-old is a brat to me, and, as loathsome as I may find them (tongue mostly in cheek), I lay the blame fully at the feet of the owner. And I wasn't least irked by the fact that she to some degree inconvenienced every other person in the (well-fenced, well-signed, dedicated off-leash) dog park (on an old landfill) and didn't even let her own dog off leash.

Stupid behavior bothers the sensible adult in me, but stupid and completely irrational behavior really brings out the obsessive-compulsive borderline autistic in me!

http://www.crowncombo.com/media/foodcommercials/miniwheats.jpg

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patiodog wrote:

Easy, linkat. Any three-year-old is a brat to me, and, as loathsome as I may find them (tongue mostly in cheek), I lay the blame fully at the feet of the owner. And I wasn't least irked by the fact that she to some degree inconvenienced every other person in the (well-fenced, well-signed, dedicated off-leash) dog park (on an old landfill) and didn't even let her own dog off leash.

Stupid behavior bothers the sensible adult in me, but stupid and completely irrational behavior really brings out the obsessive-compulsive borderline autistic in me!

Ah you didn't say it was a dog park and by your comments you seemed more upset at the child - yes the owner is irresponsible and should not have responsibility for a dog much less a child.

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Did so!

Quote:

Was at the dog park earlier today

No, it was obviously natural behavior for a kid that age -- which is why a kid that age doesn't belong outside arm's reach in an open muddy field with two dozen strange dogs of varying sizes and temperaments.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Chai Tea wrote:

I find it very likely people don't know what kind of dog some breeds, like a pit bull looks like.
Someone from a generation that knowing the breed was that important, "it's just a dog"...to people whose cultures aren't into dogs "it's a big brown dog"

Sure, everyone could pick out a poodle if it's got the poodle cut, but if it's not got the signature hair style, I'll bet many would confuse it with something else.

I see dogs in the park all the time that I know are some kind of specific breed, but I really don't know what.

You don't have to be "into breeds" to recognize a pit bull. Again, I would be very suprised to hear many people say they couldn't recognize a pit bull dog.

Also, on a side note...
Poodles are probably more vicious than most dogs and most people don't think of them that way.

Bella, I havent' read any posts after this one, I will in a bit.

However, I really am getting confused as to the point you're trying to make here.

It's been acknowledged quite a few times already that any breed of dog can bite.
I already mentioned that any person posting here could speak from personal experience of either themselves or someone they know has been bitten by a dog, or a cat, or a bird, etc.

No one here has denied any of that.

Funny, right after my post yesterday someone walked in my office and I asked her..."would your mother know what a pit bull looked like"?
I got a puzzled look and a "hell no" as an answer.

My mother, or father, grandparents, and the aunts and uncles around me growing up wouldn't have know either.
My neighbor has an almost 3 year old. Do you think she could identify that breed? I know she's never even seen one.

The fact is, little kids think "doggie" If a little one who can converse just fine got bitten when the parent wasn't right there, he/she could describe the dog (maybe) but not name it's breed.
People walk their dogs by my house every day, sure I can say "boxer, collie, pug....if I'm paying attention. However, lots of dog that go by, if I thought about it at all, I'd think, "some kind of terrier, some kind of hunting dog, some shaggy dog" There are so many breeds out there that simply look similar, and frankly, lots of people really don't care that much.

So really Bella, are you just trying to keep the argument going or something?

It's really impossible not to see that some dogs were bred to be more aggressive, and yes, yes, yes the owners need to be careful and responsible and all that.

Are you basically denying that the breding of some dogs were for the purpose of them grabbing, biting and killing something?

I don't advocate putting every pit bull down, but if they are destructive, yes, they should be.
Also, man created all these breeds of dogs, a forced evolution. At one point there may have been a valid reason for a dog like this. However, for most of the world, this reason no longer exists, whatever it was.

I see nothing wrong with advocating that a certain breed discontinue to be bred. It isn't some moral thing against the animal. Overall, it's just not a safe enough breed, BECAUSE of the way we made it.

And no, I'm not advocating stopping breeding any dog, but certain ones cross the line on a regular basis.

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FYI, not all of the legislation is as passive as forbidding the sale of pit bulls and the neutering of existing animals.

From http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4362515/detail.html

Quote:

{Denver} said it will start enforcing the pit bull ban on May 9. Pit bull owners have 30 days to remove their dogs from the city, officials said.

Denver banned pit bulls after the Rev. Wilbur Billingsley was attacked by a pit bull in 1989. He was bitten 70 times and both of his legs were broken.

The city sued the state in May 2004 after Gov. Bill Owens signed a state law making owners liable for injuries the first time a dog bites. The bill, which also prohibited cities and counties from outlawing specific breeds, followed the fatal mauling of an Elbert County woman by three pit bulls last year.

The Denver pit bull law prohibits any person from owning, possessing, keeping, exercising control over, maintaining, harboring, or selling a pit bull in the city and county of Denver. The city defines a pit bull as any dog that is an American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, or any dog displaying the majority of physical traits of any one or more of these breeds. Copies of these three official breed standards are available at the Denver Municipal Animal Shelter at 678 South Jason St. in Denver. Call (303) 698-0076 for more information.

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Here is an idea. All people who own dogs with clipped ears should volunteer to have their own ears clipped the same way.
.
That would make a wonderful bond between the dog and the master.

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Chai Tea wrote:

Bella, I havent' read any posts after this one, I will in a bit.

However, I really am getting confused as to the point you're trying to make here.

The only point I am trying to make is that blaming the breed is stupid, silly and irresponsible: just like the people who own the dogs.

Chai Tea wrote:

So really Bella, are you just trying to keep the argument going or something?

If keeping the arugment going means trying to convince people that not all pit bulls should be destroyed or "phased out" then yes, I guess I am.

Chai Tea wrote:

It's really impossible not to see that some dogs were bred to be more aggressive, and yes, yes, yes the owners need to be careful and responsible and all that.

Are you basically denying that the breding of some dogs were for the purpose of them grabbing, biting and killing something?

SOME dogs are but not ALL pit bulls are bred to be agressive. It's like saying since boxers are bred to be gentle, ALL boxers are gentle, which is just not true. Making sweeping statments about ANY dog is just plain nonsense.

Chai Tea wrote:

I don't advocate putting every pit bull down, but if they are destructive, yes, they should be.

This we can agree on. Humans are far more important than dogs and should a dog, ANY dog hurt anyone, it should be put down.

Chai Tea wrote:

And no, I'm not advocating stopping breeding any dog, but certain ones cross the line on a regular basis.

Breeding itself needs to be regulated, not the breed. Blame the human, not the dog.

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If you want to talk about Breeding and the things we humans have done to "breeds", that a whole new discussion. How about the English Bulldog, for one? The fact that they need help to breed, often have to have c-sections to have babies, have breathing problems, etc.

I don't really like breeding dogs to fit human standards. It's not always "right".

Spay and neuter, there aren't enough homes for them all.
Too many animals in shelters.

I believe in responsible pet ownership. People should educate themselves before getting any pet. And they should take responsibility for their animals, in their care and in their behavior.

I believe in laws that force the owners to take responsibilty. I believe in putting down any animal that has shown dangerous qualities, if the owner won't be responmsible than the law needs to step in. Unfortunetly, in many places, there are often not enough Animal Control Officers to handle all the animals.

I do not believe in blaming a single breed.
Actions of the animal in question and the owner should be the focus.

IMO, saying that one breed is bad is just prejudice and generalizing. And isn't solving the problem as a whole. Banning one breed, will lead to banning one breed after another.

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JLNobody wrote:

I cannot understand how some people do not see the value in at least trying to breed dangerous breeds out of existence. It's not like killing actual dogs. Just eliminating their breed.
Recounting the stupidity of the owners of killer dogs does not in any way justify the continuing existence among humans (and among children especially) of such animals

I would think that the problem with that is, the idiots who want dangerous, mean dogs will just pick out the next breed that will be their scary status symbol, and start making them the breed to worry about. Practically any breed could become a danger, no?

Sure, pit bulls have traits that have been bred in for a long time that make them extra scary-- the business of clamping the jaws on and not letting go-- but then, the jaw strength of any dog is nothing to mess with, so any of them could be lethal if someone wants to start breeding them for that. I don't see how eliminating the existence of pit bulls solves the basic problem.

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Quote:

I would think that the problem with that is, the idiots who want dangerous, mean dogs will just pick out the next breed that will be their scary status symbol, and start making them the breed to worry about. Practically any breed could become a danger, no?

That's the way I see it. Next it's Rottweillers, then it's Dobermans (who, to be honest, make me more uneasy than pit bulls, and I've met some VERY bad pit bulls on doggy death row), then it's {fill in the blank}.

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Pit bull kills 5-year-old girl.

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