Will Bush ever be punished?

Bigotry is the belief that one belongs to a special, superior group. You have been accused of making a prejudiced remark. Although, of course, bigotry by inference entails prejudice, you weren't charged with that. You were also not unjustly accused of charm.

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. I think the avatars here are all rather nice, although, of course, none so cute as that of my dear little canine friend here.

violet

Some years ago, in our early twenties, myself and a bunch of friends were sitting about discussing possible world futures. When someone brought up a scenario of large infrastructure failure, Bruce, an outdoorsy sort of fellow who has always had a tendency to defend to the death anything which has escaped his mouth said, "Ah hell...no problem...we could get easily enough protein and survive just fine by eating worms!" The rest of us thought this something of an over-statement. We told him this. He defended his original proposition. We pushed. He pushed back harder. We called him on it, drove to my mom and dad's house (a spring evening, several hours past dark) and searching dilligently over the lush front lawn, found him the biggest and juiciest earth worm unlucky enough to be out courting that evening. Bruce was miles past being able to back down at this point and added a cooking proviso to his original thesis. We granted him this, and up we went to mom's kitchen where Bruce deep-fried the earthworm in mom's least valuable pot (this was her idea). Though Bruce normally preferred his meat rare, on this occasion he went for very well done indeed - almost back to the constituent carbon. Still....still...the look on his face when he finally HAD TO bite into that worm spoke eloquently about the danger of not being able to admit a spoken mistake.

Yeah, verily, Sgt. Preston has spoken. Try to worm yer way outta that one . . .

blatham, it's a nice story, but it doesn't make the case that what I wrote was a mistake.

again...

Am I not allowed to criticize Israel, or show my anger towards it, because it's a Jewish nation?

Why is it that any criticism directed at Israel is immediately judged to be anti-semitic or prejudiced? Perhaps that's part of Israel's problem. It enjoys a special status among nations that I believe isn't warranted, fair, or good for the Israeli people.

Israel is supposedly a democratic nation, so the people of Israel (at least a majority) are as responsible for what's happening as the Likud Party.

If someone from Europe said they never saw or heard the words "American sophistication" used together (except maybe in a joke), I'm sure most people would know what they meant, and most people wouldn't take it personally. Lighten up for chrissake.

Actually, Sgt. Preston had a moustache. The photograph on the left is of one Corporal Irving Goldstein, of the Alberta Goldsteins.

violet

For goodness sakes, girl. We are all watching you eat a worm right now. There is a difference - a very important difference - between criticizing the policies of a nation and indicting the entire population of that nation for having some negative social attribute. The first is entirely valid, the second is guilty of the simplistic foolishness of any generalization, and because it is a negative attribute you ascribe, then you become guilty of something worse too.

This boogie's a mess . . .

I think Israel should be treated just like any other nation. It isn't "the crippled guy" that everyone should be especially kind to, and careful around. Israel is one of the strongest, most able nations on Earth. Let's not forget that.

I know I'm not a bigot, I'm not prejudiced, and I'm not anti semitic, but I am willing to criticize the things on this earth that displease me.

Look Violet, Israel sprung up out of the ashes of the Holocaust (which of course I realize that out of about 11 million murdered, only a bit more than 6 million were Jews). Please realize the Arabs were complicit with Germany in that war. Please also realize that when a 2-state solution was first proposed by the U.N, the Israelis accepted while the Arab response was to immediately attack. Israel won that war. Please realize that while Israel has always had an open door to Jews [including the Ethiopian Jews, simply because we have been forced out of nearly every country in the world, the Arabs have left the so-called Palestinians to rot rather than reaching out to them and integrating them for their own P.R. purposes, which apparently you have swallowed hook, line and
s(t)inker! No, Violet you're neither prejudiced, anti-Semitic nor a bigot...right, gotcha!

Take the following joke:

Q: What's the least used sentence in the English language?

A: The English have beautiful teeth.


It's a silly generalization, but it's kinda funny. If you don't like the joke, it's not likely that you'll use it as an opportunity to slam me as prejudiced or anti anglo.

Don't ever say anything negative about Israelis though, or you're in the doghouse. Why is that? Why the special treatment?

Hey... guess what? The jews are people just like everyone else.

Sweet, you got me? I must have missed that one.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us how the Arabs were complicit with Germany in WW2. The fact that the Israelis are stronger than the Palestinians doesn't give Israelis the right to treat Palestinians like dogs.

BTW Sweet, what do you mean by "so-called Palestinians". Sounds to me that you're writing a whole people off. You seem to imply that the Palestinians deserve to be in the situation they're in, and deserve to be treated badly, just because their leaders have made bad decisions in the past. Sounds pretty prejudiced to me...

Why am I on Violet Lake's side in this? Is it Blatham's avatar? Or is does it boil down to something which may be more dangerous to the world than anthrax or West Nile virus? a deadly disease which appears to have infected the American Empire?

Humorlessness.

There are among us several dedicated Thuds -- in this particular forum those roles are played by Au and Steissd. Violet may be over the top, but Violet has been making points which continue to escape those two.

Humor and wit are useful not only in deflating tremendous pomposity but give us the balance we need AND AN INDICATION THAT OUR EGOS ARE WILLING TO CONCEDE THAT OUR POINT OF VIEW IS NOT SACRED, OUR "PRINCIPLED STANDS" MORE OFTEN THAN NOT EGO FEEDERS. We all suffer from the need for a lighter, more humorous approach now and then, but Au and Steissd are among the more severely deprived. They corrupt their own moments of wisdom with utter witlessness.

Israel itself has been overtaken by self-importance and humorlessness. I noticed it when I went through a spell of reading (and enjoying immensely) Yehoshua's novels. But when he writes about Israel, the grace goes out of his style. When he ventures outside his nationality and the present time, he is close to perfect. Israeli hospitality? Dunno. Never been there. I know they are inhospitable to other cultures on their territory, particularly the indigenous Palestianians, no worse nor better than Americans have been to native Americans. We've all read about (or experienced) the Marsh and other Arab cultures and their near-fetish about hospitality -- by way of contrast.

Hospitality requires patience and a sincere effort to subdue one's own ego and needs while attending to the guest. Host and guest each play a role -- the guest adopting gracefully the customs of the host, the host accomodating the needs and interests of the guest to the greatest extent possible. Hospitality is very close to humor in its formalities -- a recognition of the otherness of the other while not banging them over the head for being "other."

This stuff is important to me. I don't like living in a culture without much humor or wit. Being in America at this time is a severe trial. I suspect I'd feel the same way about the similar self-righteousness in Israel, and probably for that reason, though well-travelled along the Mediterranean, I never wanted to go there. Imagine going to a place (or living in one, as I do now) with an autocratic leader, a population consisting of 75% yes-men and self-righteousness which spreads like a stink well beyond its borders. There are sad (for me) moments in contacts with Israelis (dissident Jews and a academic Palestianian family I met in Austin among others). The land itself which draws me (and repels me because of the destructive, ugly settlements, worse even than the ruined farmlands around Denver or other US cities).

It happens that in this particular discussion (thanks in part to Violet's remark) we have the opportunity to sideline the self-righteous flag-wavers and get to the bottom (!) of why Bush and Israel (for that matter) NEED to be recognized, ridiculed, and punished for their dangerous, witless self-righteousness in all its dangerous forms. If Steissd and Au aren't comfortable with that, well, there are how many other forums in A2K where self-righteousness sits on the right hand of god?

Quick response to Sweet Complication's "Please realize the Arabs were complicit with Germany in that war."

That's not a road we want to explore unless we're willing to admit that the US does not have clean hands with respect to the German and other Eastern European Jews (refusing them shelter), nor even do the Jews themselves who had among them many who collaborated with the Germans (often rivalling the Germans' cruelty and predation) in and out of the camps. The complications of complicity in the Holocaust (vide Arendt) make good/evil, black/white arguments impossible here. NO one comes out looking good from that one.

Thank you Tartarin. If I thought and wrote as eloquently as you do, perhaps I'd be doing better in this discussion.

Violet and Tartarin:

What do you get when 2 Jews get together? 3 opinions. (ba dum dum)


Seriously, I have had to deal with, explain to, defend from, etc., people who hold views such as both of yours all of my life. It is just too painful and I should have ignored the entire thread. Unfortunately, I received a PM alerting me to it and, curious me, I read it and became angry before I remembered there is no talking with people who have closed minds and closed hearts.

Apologies and respect to you both as human beings, but I must now stop watching this topic to save myself a lot of unnecessary pain with which I refuse to subject myself.

I'm sorry SweetComplicaton left without saying which views she finds so offensive.

Tartarin
I can find no, that which you term humor, in Violets statement or responses nor in your feeble attempt to justify the unjustifiable. I must say that you have taken the position you have is not at all surprising since it is in line with your usually expressed belief systems regarding to Israel.

Tartarin

That was exquisitely done! One of the best bits of writing I've had the pleasure to read in a long while.

You point to something which has been on my mind a while, though I didn't realize its relevance here. It seems quite possible, if not likely, that Richard Perle and others in this administration, are purposefully attempting a strategy similar to what Israel has quite successfully used in order to repress the dissident voice - the suggestion that criticism is deeply immoral as it is effectively in support of barbarians in their evil and murderous aims towards the innocent and beleagured little fella.

It's rather more difficult for the US to pull this one off, not having the Holocaust to constantly allude to, but they are going to give it their best shot using 9-11. So Hersch become a 'terrorist', and Bill O'Reilly tells an American father who's just lost his son in Iraq yet speaks against the war and administration that the father is a traitor to his own son.

Please accept this red coat in the service of humor. If accepted, I will take purple flower on a happy summer picnic where we can both share the worm.

Wow, Blatham! Thanks! I'll borrow the red coat and take it for a spin, and when I return it you'll find six extra RCMP buttons in the pocket (does that pocket open)?

Last night I watched the film "Limbo" in which they appeared to be eating worms near Juneau. Hey, up there in the north you guys seems to be capable of ANYTHING (see also "Fast Runner"!) Or is it that eating worms is a habit of the courageous?

For some, Bush, Perle, Palestinians or Sharon don't enter into disagreement with VL's statements.

Broad brush defining of an ethnic group is the beginning and the end of my criticism. I don't find anything of humor in racism. Perhaps humorlessness was ascribed to me when the nigger jokes at work, or at parties led me to share my opinion of them, rather than laugh like most everyone else.

Guess we should all be laughing at Jews, blacks, homosexuals, rather than standing up to prejudiced statements.

I see where we stand on the subject of racism, now. Funny. I thought rejection of prejudice was supposed to be the liberal's bastion.