Will Bush ever be punished?

The pocket , given a sharp wood chisel, will open.

Eating worms may well be something courageous people do. That wouldn't be something I'd know. I did that same self-defence course Woody spoke of, where one learns to plead and scream.

prejudice is a universal human affliction, not unlike the common cold but far more deadly.

Blatham, I can't look at that avatar without thinking of Monty Python and then damn near pleading and screaming.

Arising from humble origins, killing nasty French-speaking métis in little Manitoba in 1870, these hardy, right-thinking and sober young Canajun idealists went on to bigger and better things in the Northwest Territories as the North West Mounted Police. Paying their dues by chasing the wily Boer around South Africa in 1900-01, these enthusiastic volunteers in the cause of Protestant righteousness were given their just reward for their loyal service to the old Queen, and exchanged their blue coats for scarlet as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police . . .

Let no one ever speak ill of these morally-upright, squeaky-clean young gentlemen and gentleladies . . .

I agree with sofia. (And as a slight aside, this whole "sides" thing is wearying -- I agree with sofia, I agree with Tartarin, I agree with Blatham, I agree with au, and I often agree with Violet.)

This is pretty simple. To recap, quickly (au has already done this more thoroughly) -- you implied that Israelis, as a whole, are inhospitable. Au said hey. You said



So, we did. Blatham especially went into "pre-judging" quite nicely.

That's very different from telling you that you can't criticize. Criticize away. Just, if you make silly statements and then plead ignorance as to why they are silly, expect criticism in turn.

...ok, so I have no self-control...

THANK YOU, AU1929 FOR YOUR EXPLANATION OF TARTARIN'S USUAL STANCE REGARDING THIS SUBJECT; ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD NO IDEA, BUT I GUESS I SHOULD NEVER BE SURPRISED AT PEOPLE ANYMORE...AGAIN, AU, MUCH APPRECIATION!

THANK YOU, SOFIA, FOR YOUR MORE GENERALIZED COMMENTS. PERHAPS I SHOULD STOP DEALING WITH ALL MY COGNITIVE DISSONANCE AND REALIZE THIS IS ONE ISSUE WHERE MORE SUPPOSEDLY LIBERAL PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS STAB US IN THE BACK.

EVERYONE, REMEMBER THAT LITTLE OLD TOM LEHRER DITTY?: SOMETHING ABOUT THIS GROUP HATING THAT GROUP AD INFINITEM AND ENDING WITH

BUT, THEY ALL HATE THE JEWS!

Sheesh, SweetComplication, where did you get that idea? Please be careful not to fall prey to the manipulation Blatham writes about, where to criticize Israel is to be against the moral order!

But all the same, tartarin, to criticize Israel seems to be some kind of moral stance. Most people in this world do not act according to the rules other people set up for them. And looking at what outsiders think Israel should be doing is pretty easy. It's always easier when you're not involved. For years the media would show pictures of poor, crying Palestinian mothers, whose suicide bombers had just killed six times as many Israelis. Instigated by the Palestinians for real and imagined ills. So the sympathy was always for the crying mother. Jews are supposed to survive, and then take criticism for doing so. Now the media has changed somewhat, and Israelis are getting some sympathy.

When anti-semitism rears its head (and it's a medusa head - taking many forms) the first cry is "not me, I'm as tolerant as they come." But what's heard is anti-semitism. Maybe not so overt as some other statements, but here.

Scalia sits on an official bench, crying about cultural wars and homosexual agendas. This is part of the same thing. Just regards still another aspect. At least he was more open about it.

We just gotta face the facts that most of us have differring opinions on the same issues. I like to think I express my opinions without regards to how others perceive them. Some may opine that what I say is anti-Semitic, and I've been called that many times - mostly by Jews. If I'm willing to express my personal opinion, I must also be ready to accept another's perception whether for good or bad. That's life. c.i.

mamajuana-- That was a strong, bold post.

When anti-semitism rears its head (and it's a medusa head - taking many forms) the first cry is "not me, I'm as tolerant as they come." But what's heard is anti-semitism. Maybe not so overt as some other statements, but here.

I agree.

Of course criticizing Israel (or any country) frequently has a moral component (and sometimes doesn't), as does criticizing extremist Palestinians. But criticizing Israel is not about criticizing Jews as such -- ask any American Jew (observant or not) who is appalled by Israel at this time. Many Americans Jews and non-Jews who've watched Israel over the years have come to dislike its actions with differing degrees of intensity. I believe, along with others here, that cries of anti-Semitism, prejudice, are often falsely used by supporters of Israel to dampen dissent. It's a grown-up country participating in the real world, and it behaves very badly indeed in the views of many. Perhaps apologists for Israel hear anti-semitism in the issue because they want the issue to be hors de concours, not because anti-semitism is actually there. (PS -- Some people sit in restaurants and are SURE the people at the other tables are talking about them. That doesn't mean the other people are, nor does that mean the other people should therefore shut up, to honor a false perception...)

i love humanity, its people i cant stand

In response to Tart's last post:

Which has what to do with a blanket inferential suggestion that Israeli's are not hospitable people ?

I don't consider it anti-semetic; such a remark could derive from anti-semitism, or not . . . that's beside the point . . . the function of inference, properly so, is to draw meaning from what someone says or writes . . . that remark was not thrown out into a void . . . it was part and parcel of what had been written before it . . . a clear and valid inference is that an entire category--Israelis--were being slighted . . .

All of the members taking varying levels of offense at the blanket statement have written critiques of some Israeli policies at one time or another. (With the possible exception of sc, who's material I am not so familiar with.) There may be some who shout anti-Semitism to garner points in an argument, but it didn't happen here.

How about this... How about they had no ulterior motives other than a dislike for racist or prejudiced statements ?

Why is there, this dramatic increase in anti-semitism in both England and the US? Was it always there, just simmering below the surface?

Non-Jews will never understand Jews, no matter how many courses in Judaism they take. So don't waste your time, if you're a gentile, trying to explain to any Jew, that a statement isn't anti-semitic.

I say power to the people of Israel and for the sake of God and all Jews of this world, don't give up either the Land or the Good Fight.

NH, Jews do not need any more encouragement. They are capable on deciding for themselves what must be done. As with any conflict, they will have Jews that will support and not support any position they hold. It's not necessary to understand "Jews" to their own level of understanding; some will agree and others will not agree with non-Jews. c.i.

"Which has what to do with a blanket inferential suggestion that Israeli's are not hospitable people?"

Nothing whatsoever, Set!! If you're wondering about my post, it was a response to Mamaj's post, and probably didn't indicate that...

It's probably nuts to pursue people with the "anti-semitism" label, particularly when one doesn't provide any criteria.

New Haven, argue on Tartarin's side.




<kidding>

I cannot recall where did I imply that anyone of the members was an anti-Semite. I mentioned that anti-Semites are not welocme to Israel, but this is a normal response of any nation to its haters. I do not think that haters of Canada (if such people exist somewhere) are invited to visit this country.