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Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2007 02:10 pm
Advocate wrote:
Before the '67 war, the Pals owned and controlled the West Bank and Gaza, and all the water resources therein.

Advocate needs to study the history of Israel before he spouts ignorance - repeatedly.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2007 02:47 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

No, I don't think so. The USA was able to overcome seemingly impossible differences in attitudes and convictions re status of and treatment of minorities in our own country. I refuse to believe that either the Israelis or the Palestinians are incapable of reconciling differences if each side is willing to do so.

True enough. However we did it by ending the discr8mination that was at the source of the problem. We dis not apply any a priori tests to blacks to determine if they were, in any sense, "OK" before granting them the rights that were naturally theirs under our constitution.


Foxfire wrote:
The fact that the million plus Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are not committing terrorist violence is proof that such violence isn't ingrained into their DNA.

Are you convinced that Israel would not have extended citizenship to the rest of the Palestinians if they had stopped the terrorist attacks, if they had rejected an anti-Israel government, and if they had demonstrated a willingness to be good citizens of Israel? If they had done that and Israel continued its unacceptable discriminatroy policies, I would certainly be arguing on the other side of this debate.

Yes I am convinced the Likud governments of Israel in the late 1960s and 1970s were determined to keep a majior part of the West Bank as Israeli territory and to drive out the palestinian inhabitants of the seized territory -- no matter what the Palestinians did. Indeed this was the avowed, declared policy of these Israeli governments. There is no argiument or speculation on this point. In fact this is still - today - the avowed policy of the Israeli government. Indeed they regard any portion of the West Bank territory from which they have not expelled the Palestinian inhabitants, or which they are willing to concede to a Palestinian government (albeit a powerless one, totally dependent on Israeli control) as a major concession on their part.

Foxfire wrote:
Is capitulating to the terrorist demands the only reasonable course for Israelis? Do you honestly believe that would bring peace to Israel?
The Palestinians - not all of them terrorists - demand political and property rights for themselves - rights that Israel has taken from them by force. Those Palestinians who are terrorists also demand the same thing and much more besides. The fact that some of those who demand an end to the systematic and deliberate injuastice inflicted on them by Israel are terrorists does not in any way, absolve Israel for the great injustice it has done
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2007 02:57 pm
Advocate wrote:
Israel is an independent, recognized nation that can run the country as it pleases. It has no obligation to admit Pals from outside the country.

Jordan is essentially a Pal country, to which those Pals can retreat. Hussein, of course, wants nothing to do with them.


Is the West Bank "inside" Israel or "outside" of it???

Israel has unilaterally and deliberately seized major portions of the West Bank, in effect adding them to Israel - from which it has excluded the Palestinian inhabitants of the land. It is taking the territory of the West Bank while driving out its former and present inhabitants. Please tell me how this is in any way different from the "ethnic cleansing" practiced by another independent country that also could presumably run its affairs as it pleased - Serbia under the unlamented dictator Milosevec. For that matter, how is it different from the Apartheidt policies of the former Nationalist government of South Africa?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2007 05:27 pm
Before the '67 war, Arafat and the PLO had de facto ownership of the WB and Gaza, including its water resources. This did not stop steady attacks on Israel by the Pals. So to say now that water resources is the big thing keeping the Pals from recognizing Israel is pure sophistry.

George, you are so reckless in your statements. The settlements did not take up "major" portions of the WB and Gaza. Those portions were relatively small pieces of land that were untitled. Moreover, the WB and Gaza were prizes of a war initiated by the Pals and others.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2007 06:52 pm
* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2007 08:27 pm
For facts about the water and the settlements, I find a lot of good information here and here. I don't know if the site has an agenda but it doesn't appear to be stretching the facts in either direction. I'm curious to know what others think.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2007 10:40 pm
Six-Day War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Six-Day War (Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة, ħarb al‑ayyam as‑sitta ; Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים, Milhemet Sheshet Ha‑Yamim), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, the Third Arab-Israeli War, Six Days' War, an‑Naksah (The Setback), or the June War, was fought between Israel and the Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. When Egypt expelled the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai Peninsula, increased its military activity near the border, and blockaded the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce fearing an imminent invasion by Egypt.[1] Jordan then attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya.[2][3] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 11:18 am
CI, you seem ignorant of history and geography. Before the '67 war, Jordan DID NOT own Palestine. It did have marginal control of the area. The area owned by anyone was owned by the Pals who had title to the land.

The UN discriminated against Israel at every turn. Moreover, the Arabs regularly disregarded the terms of resolutions.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 11:32 am
Advocate, What ever happened to all those "titles to the land?" It seems Jews stole them - illegally according to international law.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 04:31 pm
I wonder where the number one Israel hater, Blue Flame, is these days. Perhaps he is celebrating Hezbollah's efforts to snuff out democracy in Lebanon.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 04:51 pm
Water in Palestine
Palestine Monitor
Excerpts from their Fact Sheet


West Bank Water Usage
Of the water available from West Bank aquifers, Israel uses 73%, West Bank Palestinians use 17%, and illegal Jewish settlers use 10%.
While 10-14% of Palestine's GDP is agricultural, 90% of them must rely on rain-fed farming methods. Israel's agriculture is only 3% of their GDP, but Israel irrigates more than 50% of its land.
Three million West Bank Palestinians use only 250 million cubic meters per year (83 cubic meters per Palestinian per year) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 1,954 million cubic meters (333 cubic meters per Israeli per year), which means that each Israeli consumes as much water as four Palestinians. Israeli settlers are allocated 1,450 cubic meters of water per person per year.
Israel consumes the vast majority of the water from the Jordan River despite only 3% of the river falling within its pre-1967 borders. Israel now diverts one quarter of its total water consumption through its National Water Carrier from the Jordan River, whereas Palestinians have no access to it whatsoever due to Israeli closures.
"There is no reason for Palestinians to claim that just because they sit on lands, they have the rights to that water."

- Mr. Katz-Oz, Israel's negotiator on water issues [1]


International Law
Under international law it is illegal for Israel to expropriate the water of the Occupied Palestinian Territories for use by its own citizens, and doubly illegal to expropriate it for use by illegal Israeli settlers [2].
Also under international law, Israel owes Palestinians reparations for past and continuing use of water resources. This should include interest due to loss of earnings from farming.
Israeli Actions
Israel does not allow new wells to be drilled by Palestinians and has confiscated many wells for Israeli use. Israel sets quotas on how much water can be drawn by Palestinians from existing wells.

Israeli settlers have no restrictions on water use.


When supplies of water are low in the summer months, the Israeli water company Mekorot closes the valves which supply Palestinian towns and villages so as not to affect Israeli supplies. This means that illegal Israeli settlers can have their swimming pools topped up and lawns watered while Palestinians living next to them, on whose land the settlements are situated, do not have enough water for drinking and cooking.
Israel often sells the water it steals from the West Bank back to the Palestinians at inflated prices.
During the war of 1967, 140 Palestinian wells in the Jordan Valley were destroyed to divert water through Israel's National Water Carrier. Palestinians were allowed to dig only 13 wells between 1967 and 1996, less than the number of wells which dried up during the same period due to Israel's refusal to deepen or rehabilitate existing wells.
The Gaza strip relies predominately on wells that are being increasingly infiltrated by salty sea water because Israel is over-pumping the groundwater. UN scientists estimate that Gaza will have no drinkable water within fifteen years.
Settlers

The main spring in the Palestinian village of Yanoun suffers damages and contamination inflicted by illegal Israeli settlers.

In Madama village 50km north of Jerusalem settlers from Yizhar settlement have repeatedly vandalized the villager's only source of water. They have poured concrete into it, vandalized the connecting pipes and even dropped disposable diapers and other hazardous waste into the springs. Three villagers have been attacked by settlers while trying to repair the water source [3].
Constant settler attacks on the community of Yanoun, Nablus governorate, located next to the Itamar settlement, peaked in October 2002 when masked settlers charged into the village with dogs and caused significant damage to the water network, several roof tanks, and the local spring, which is considered to be the main source of water for the community. The main line supplying water to the community from the main spring, as well as the pump, reservoir, fittings and valves were all damaged by settlers. Residents of the community were forced to buy water from tankers from the neighboring community. Tanker access was very difficult due to Israeli closures and checkpoints as well as settler threats and terror which included shootings, beatings, and harassment [4].
Water and the Wall

This water reservoir, located in the village of Attil, Tulkarem district, is isolated by the Wall from the community it serves. It is in the area between the Wall and the Green Line, which Israel is attempting to annex in violation of the Road Map and of international law.

Many of the most important underground wellsprings in the West Bank are located just to the east of the Green Line dividing Israel from Palestine. Israel has built the Wall not only to annex land but also to annex many of these wells in order to divert water to Israel and illegal West Bank settlements.
The Wall is not only an Apartheid Wall, but also a water wall. Some of the largest Israeli settlements (such as Ariel and Qedumin) are built over the Western mountain aquifer, directly in the middle of the northern West Bank agricultural districts, and this is exactly where the wall cuts deepest into Palestinian territory to surround and annex this vital water source.
The building of the Wall has caused the village of Falamya in Qalqiliya district to lose its main source of water. In Jayyous, a village near Falamya, all of its seven water wells have been annexed or destroyed by the Apartheid Wall.
In the West Bank, around 50 groundwater wells and over 200 cisterns have been destroyed or isolated from their owners by the Wall. This water was used for domestic and agricultural needs by over 122,000 people. To build the Wall, 25 wells and cisterns and 35,000 meters of water pipes have also been destroyed [5].
In 2003, the losses incurred by Palestinian farmers due to the Wall diverting water resources has been 2,200 tons of olive oil, 50,000 tons of fruit, and 100,000 tons of vegetables [6].
The Wall is obstructing many water run-off flows in the Qalqiliya region that normally divert water to prevent flooding. During heavy rains in February 2005, Israeli soldiers refused to open drainage pipes in Qalqiliya, which led to heavy flood damage to crops and homes there. The Wall also caused severe flooding in Zububa and other villages.
Under the conditions brought about by the siege imposed by Israeli occupation forces, civilians in the occupied territories are suffering from lack of access to necessary resources for the maintenance of their daily needs and basic health. We have reached a state of emergency in the water sector in the Occupied Territories. We must call for an immediate end to the siege upon the water sector.
link
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jan, 2007 04:55 pm
blueflame, Excellent find, but some people will refuse to see the "reality" of how Palestinians are treated by the Jews of Israel.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jan, 2007 12:29 pm
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jan, 2007 12:57 pm
blueflame, That is precisely why I have hopes for Israel. Jews are now speaking out and taking more action about how Palestinians are being treated, and they recognize the inhumanity of it all. What is needed is more voices and actions by the Jews of Israel to outshout the Zionists.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jan, 2007 07:53 pm
Advocate wrote:
Before the '67 war, Arafat and the PLO had de facto ownership of the WB and Gaza, including its water resources. This did not stop steady attacks on Israel by the Pals. So to say now that water resources is the big thing keeping the Pals from recognizing Israel is pure sophistry.

George, you are so reckless in your statements. The settlements did not take up "major" portions of the WB and Gaza. Those portions were relatively small pieces of land that were untitled. Moreover, the WB and Gaza were prizes of a war initiated by the Pals and others.


Before the 1967 war the West Bank was a part of Jordan, which ruled it in conventional terms, including control of air and water rights.. Arafat and the Palestinian resistance were a well-orgainzed and often divisive element in Jordan, but they did not rule the West Bank.

IKmmediately fgollowing the 1967 War Israel established a network of military ouutposts on the heights overlooking the Jordan valley running from above Jerico to Lake Tiberias - the entire length of the West Bank. Palestinians were systematically excluded from this zome, cutting them off entirely from the Jordan Valley. In addition both government-sponsored and so called "Illegal" settlements began to appear throughout the West Bank. All - including the so called "illegal" ones were prodtected by the IDF. Many were planted on titled land simply taken from their former owners.

Very quickly Israel began the construction of a network of restricted access roads linking the settlements and isolating the Palestinian population in separate enclaves, the borders of which Palestinians could not cross without the sufferance of the IDF. In this way Israel ended up with absolute exclusion of Palestiniand from about half of the territory of the West Bank, which they claimed for themselves -- and do today.

Israel has claimed the West Bank and Gaza as prizes of the 1967 War -- a War initiated by a surprise Israeli attack on Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.


Who is being reckless with the truth here?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jan, 2007 11:02 pm
Pals did not control the West Bank before 1967.

Six-Day War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Six-Day War
(Arab-Israeli conflict)

IDF soldiers at Jerusalem's Western Wall shortly after its capture.
Date June 5, 1967 - June 10, 1967
Location Middle East
Result Decisive Israeli victory
Casus belli Egyptian naval blockade and military buildup in the Sinai Peninsula as well as Syrian support for Fedayeen incursions into Israel.
Territorial
changes Israel captured the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

Arab-Israeli conflict
1920 riots · Jaffa riots · 1929 Palestine riots · 1936-1939 Arab revolt · 1948 Arab-Israeli War · Suez Crisis · Six-Day War · War of Attrition · Yom Kippur War · 1978 South Lebanon conflict · 1982 Lebanon War · 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict · First Intifada · Gulf War · al-Aqsa Intifada · 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict

The Six-Day War (Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة, ħarb al‑ayyam as‑sitta ; Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים, Milhemet Sheshet Ha‑Yamim), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, the Third Arab-Israeli War, Six Days' War, an‑Naksah (The Setback), or the June War, was fought between Israel and the Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. When Egypt expelled the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai Peninsula, increased its military activity near the border, and blockaded the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce fearing an imminent invasion by Egypt.[1] Jordan then attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya.[2][3] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.


Advocate, Your information is not only lacking in facts, but also in ethics and honesty. How can you continue to ignore the facts presented to you?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 11:35 am
Blue, I see that the source of your piece on water is a Palestinian organization. This explains its one-sided condemnation of Israel. Further, the piece mentions that Israel's actions are against international law. I guess today's bombing by the Pals of a civilian target (a bakery) in Israel proper was a violation of international law.

Considering the Pals' unrelenting attacks on Israeli (mostly civilian) targets, the Pals forfeit any sympathy for their causes.

I can't help but notice that the posters here do not state a word of condemnation for these Pal attacks on innocent Israelis.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 11:40 am
Advocate, I notice you simply attack the messenger and ignore the facts. I understand what a difficult task you've taken on trying to defend American and Israeli atrocities. A thankless and frustrating job.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 11:47 am
Advocate, Your only defense now is your perception that we don't decry the Palestinian violence against Jews. Your blinders have made you totally blind to the truth.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 11:49 am
Quote:

I can't help but notice that the posters here do not state a word of condemnation for these Pal attacks on innocent Israelis.


Palestinians shouldn't attack Israeli citizens. It's wrong and a horrible thing to do.

Now, let's hear you criticize anything about Israel's dealings with the Palestinians...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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