Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

Advocate wrote:

Considering the Pals' unrelenting attacks on Israeli (mostly civilian) targets, the Pals forfeit any sympathy for their causes.

I can't help but notice that the posters here do not state a word of condemnation for these Pal attacks on innocent Israelis.

Far more Palestinians have died at the hands of the IDF than have Israelis at the hand of terrorists. The differences arfe in factors of two to five, depending on the time period one considers. In view of this fact and the principle you cited above, should I conclude that the Israelis also "forfeit all sympathy"?

Of course everyone here condemns and regrets all of the murder and violence that has been occurring in Palestine since WWII. We have been discussing different concepts of root historical causes, not the regrettable behavior they generate on both sides. You are once again simply running from the obvious conclusion and creating a distraction.

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The fact remains that the Palestinian deaths by and large result from Israeli retaliation for Palestinian terrorist attacks. And yes, Israel has the superior military and superior air power and is much better financially equipped to conduct war.

The thing that the Palestinian apologists do not seem to want to deal with is that Israel does not attack the Palestinians without provocation but counter attacks in the face of terrorist attacks or rocket attacks or other provocative deadly behavior.

Would any Palestinians have died at the hands of the Israelis if they (and Iran, Syria et al) had not initiated, funded, promoted, approved, and carried out deadly attacks against Israeli citizens? Would the Palestinians still be discriminated against had they agreed with peace proposals back in the 1970's and stopped the terrorist attacks and pledged to be productive, law abiding citizens of Israel?

If Israel dscriminates against Palestians because they are Palestinians rather than because they shelter, approve, and/or conduct terrorist activities, then nobody would be defending Israel here.

Is Israel attacked Palestinians because they are Palestinians rather than because they have carried out deadly attacks on Israeli citizens, then nobody would be defending Israel here.

Those Americans and/or Brits and/or others as well as Palestinians who have experienced less than warm, accommodating treatment from the Israelis in the past no doubt harbor some residual resentment about that. But regardless of any personal prejudices, common sense should tell us that nobody should have to tolerate terrorist attacks or accommodate terrorists pledged to wipe their enemies off the face of the earth.

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Foxfyre, "The fact remains that the Palestinian deaths by and large result from Israeli retaliation for Palestinian terrorist attacks." Why is that the facts and not spin? Why are not Pakestinian attacks the result of Israeli atrocities? How many Palestinians live in houses once belonging to Israelis? How many Israelis live in houses once owned by Palestinians? Starting in 1947 Palestinians were burned and murdered out of their houses. You can go round and round in circles arguing who is retaliating on who. It's time to work on a 2 state solution and that along 1967 borders. No other solution stands a chance in hell of ending the cycle of violence. And that solution would mean the Seperation Wall will have to be destroyed.

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Quote:

You can go round and round in circles arguing who is retaliating on who.

But, you see, to Conservatives, the Israelis could not possibly be at fault, because they are humans/allies of ours, whereas the Palestinians are animals/enemies.

Cycloptichorn

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Israel does not target civilians, but the Pals do. Israel does retaliate for attacks on it, as it must do in an attempt to discourage future attacks. Israel takes prisoners, but the Pals murder theirs.

It is virtually impossible for Israel to negotiate with the Pals because the latter does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Moreover, any Pal leader willing to give recognition faces a real threat to his life. Following Camp David, Arafat said that, had he agreed to terms, he would be assassinated. Thus, Israel is left with the duty to defend, retaliate, and hope for change.

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Advocate goes back to square one, because he fails to challenge the facts presented; 1) Israel kills more innocent Palestinians than the other way around, 2) Palestinians do not have any legal rights in Israel, 3) Jews continue to "steal" Palestinian lands, and 4) many Jews are now talking and taking action against their own government, because they see all the injustices perpetrated against the Palestinians.

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Advocate, I'm waiting for you to say something condemning the Israeli use of violence, the same as you demand others do for the Palestinians. I also would ask that you actually address the points others make, instead of repeating the same things over and over again!

Advocate wrote:

Israel does not target civilians, but the Pals do.

This is a flat-out lie. Israel most certainly does target civilians. You could ask any one of the hundreds of dead children killed by Israel over the last decade - if they weren't dead.

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Israel does retaliate for attacks on it, as it must do in an attempt to discourage future attacks.

This is also a flat-out lie. There is no evidence that counter-attacks deter violence at all. There is every evidence that it encourages further attacks.

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Israel takes prisoners, but the Pals murder theirs.

The Pals take prisoners as well. This is hyperbole on your part.

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It is virtually impossible for Israel to negotiate with the Pals because the latter does not recognize Israel's right to exist.

It is virtually impossible for Palestine to negotiate with Israelis, because the latter does not recognize Palestine's right to exist.

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Moreover, any Pal leader willing to give recognition faces a real threat to his life.

Same goes for Israeli leaders. If you honestly believe that there isn't a section of Israeli society which actively calls for Israel to take over and control the entire area of the West Bank and Palestine - which you call a 'spoil of war' - then you are in denial.

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Following Camp David, Arafat said that, had he agreed to terms, he would be assassinated. Thus, Israel is left with the duty to defend, retaliate, and hope for change.

An absolutely ridiculous, partisan, idiotic view of the situation.

Cycloptichorn

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I don't think hostages count as prisoners.

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Who said they did?

Cycloptichorn

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Advocate wrote:

Israel does not target civilians, but the Pals do. Israel does retaliate for attacks on it, as it must do in an attempt to discourage future attacks. Israel takes prisoners, but the Pals murder theirs.

It is virtually impossible for Israel to negotiate with the Pals because the latter does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Moreover, any Pal leader willing to give recognition faces a real threat to his life. Following Camp David, Arafat said that, had he agreed to terms, he would be assassinated. Thus, Israel is left with the duty to defend, retaliate, and hope for change.

Israel may not target Palestinian civilians, however, it does kill them in large numbers. Moreover it has restricted the physical, econiomic, and political freedom of the Palestinians in the West bank for nearly 40 years.

Th4e Palestinian terrorists rationalize their acts as necessary to prevent worse actions by the Israelis. Israel rationalizes its acts with the same feeble excuse. Meanwhile the killing continues, and Israel does it far more efficiently and in far greater numbers than do the Palestinians.

Many Palestinians reject negotiations with Israel for analogous reasons -- they say that Israel won't recognize the right of return of Palestinians to their former homes and won't ever treat them fairly. Both versions of the truth have equivalent facts supporting them. Why should any observer prefer one to the other?

The only Israeli leader who showed any serious willingness to negotiate on a basis of near wequity with the palestinians (Rabin) was assasinated by a radical Zionist.

Your arguments all have an equivalenty mirror image in the Palestinian side. This is a clear indication that they are specious and hardly either definitive or persuasive.

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Cyclo said:

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:35 pm Post: 2505743 -

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Advocate, I'm waiting for you to say something condemning the Israeli use of violence, the same as you demand others do for the Palestinians. I also would ask that you actually address the points others make, instead of repeating the same things over and over again!

Advocate wrote:
Israel does not target civilians, but the Pals do.

This is a flat-out lie. Israel most certainly does target civilians. You could ask any one of the hundreds of dead children killed by Israel over the last decade - if they weren't dead. YOUR RETORT IS SILLY. COLLATERAL DEATHS DO OCCUR, AND THEY ARE OCCURING RIGHT NOW IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

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Israel does retaliate for attacks on it, as it must do in an attempt to discourage future attacks.

This is also a flat-out lie. There is no evidence that counter-attacks deter violence at all. There is every evidence that it encourages further attacks.
THERE WOULD BE MANY, MANY MORE ATTACKS ON ISRAEL SHOULD IT NOT RETALIATE.

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Israel takes prisoners, but the Pals murder theirs.

The Pals take prisoners as well. This is hyperbole on your part. THE PALS RARELY TAKE PRISONERS. DO YOU REMEMBER THE BUTCHERING OF THE TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS WHO MADE A WRONG TURN?

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It is virtually impossible for Israel to negotiate with the Pals because the latter does not recognize Israel's right to exist.

It is virtually impossible for Palestine to negotiate with Israelis, because the latter does not recognize Palestine's right to exist. ISRAEL HAS BEEN READY AND WILLING TO MEET, AS A FULL PARTNER, PALS WHO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL.

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Moreover, any Pal leader willing to give recognition faces a real threat to his life.

Same goes for Israeli leaders. If you honestly believe that there isn't a section of Israeli society which actively calls for Israel to take over and control the entire area of the West Bank and Palestine - which you call a 'spoil of war' - then you are in denial. THAT IS SILLY. RABIN WAS KILLED, BUT NO ONE ELSE WAS MURDERED BY THE FRINGE GROUPS.

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Following Camp David, Arafat said that, had he agreed to terms, he would be assassinated. Thus, Israel is left with the duty to defend, retaliate, and hope for change.

An absolutely ridiculous, partisan, idiotic view of the situation. YOUR IGNORANCE HERE IS PALPABLE.

Cycloptichorn

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Advocate wrote:

Cyclo said:

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:35 pm Post: 2505743 -

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Advocate, I'm waiting for you to say something condemning the Israeli use of violence, the same as you demand others do for the Palestinians. I also would ask that you actually address the points others make, instead of repeating the same things over and over again!

Advocate wrote:
Israel does not target civilians, but the Pals do.

This is a flat-out lie. Israel most certainly does target civilians. You could ask any one of the hundreds of dead children killed by Israel over the last decade - if they weren't dead. YOUR RETORT IS SILLY. COLLATERAL DEATHS DO OCCUR, AND THEY ARE OCCURING RIGHT NOW IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

Quote:
Israel does retaliate for attacks on it, as it must do in an attempt to discourage future attacks.

This is also a flat-out lie. There is no evidence that counter-attacks deter violence at all. There is every evidence that it encourages further attacks.
THERE WOULD BE MANY, MANY MORE ATTACKS ON ISRAEL SHOULD IT NOT RETALIATE.

Quote:
Israel takes prisoners, but the Pals murder theirs.

The Pals take prisoners as well. This is hyperbole on your part. THE PALS RARELY TAKE PRISONERS. DO YOU REMEMBER THE BUTCHERING OF THE TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS WHO MADE A WRONG TURN?

Quote:
It is virtually impossible for Israel to negotiate with the Pals because the latter does not recognize Israel's right to exist.

It is virtually impossible for Palestine to negotiate with Israelis, because the latter does not recognize Palestine's right to exist. ISRAEL HAS BEEN READY AND WILLING TO MEET, AS A FULL PARTNER, PALS WHO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL.

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Moreover, any Pal leader willing to give recognition faces a real threat to his life.

Same goes for Israeli leaders. If you honestly believe that there isn't a section of Israeli society which actively calls for Israel to take over and control the entire area of the West Bank and Palestine - which you call a 'spoil of war' - then you are in denial. THAT IS SILLY. RABIN WAS KILLED, BUT NO ONE ELSE WAS MURDERED BY THE FRINGE GROUPS.

Quote:
Following Camp David, Arafat said that, had he agreed to terms, he would be assassinated. Thus, Israel is left with the duty to defend, retaliate, and hope for change.

An absolutely ridiculous, partisan, idiotic view of the situation. YOUR IGNORANCE HERE IS PALPABLE.

Cycloptichorn

Ridiculous assertions from you, Advocate. You are rapidly showing yourself to be unworthy of discussion on this matter, because you retreat to unsubstantiated assertions at the sign of any trouble.

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YOUR RETORT IS SILLY. COLLATERAL DEATHS DO OCCUR, AND THEY ARE OCCURING RIGHT NOW IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

Bull crap. The kids killed in Palestine by Israelis are not 'collateral.' It is f*cking insulting to see you refer to them that way.

It's just an easy way of denying responsibility on the part of the Israelis.

You sound like Bush, you know that?

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THERE WOULD BE MANY, MANY MORE ATTACKS ON ISRAEL SHOULD IT NOT RETALIATE.

Baseless assertion. You have no evidence that this is true whatsoever. You cannot point to any time in which the Israelis increased their attacks on Palestinians and it lead to a decrease in violence in Israel. Foolish to write such an assertion.

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ISRAEL HAS BEEN READY AND WILLING TO MEET, AS A FULL PARTNER, PALS WHO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL.

This is a flat-out lie. Palestinians have never been given the 'partner' status when it comes to negotiations; they have never been given a serious offer. Nor has the administration of their lands by Israel been conducted in a fair and humanitarian manner.

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THAT IS SILLY. RABIN WAS KILLED, BUT NO ONE ELSE WAS MURDERED BY THE FRINGE GROUPS.

What's silly is the fact that you claim any Palestinian leader who tried to negotiate would be murdered by those who don't want to see Israel recognized, and then deny equality when the exact same thing has occurred amongst Israelis. Truly staggering, your level of denial about Israeli society.

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YOUR IGNORANCE HERE IS PALPABLE.

I am still waiting for you to decry Israeli violence; until you do, your posts are less than worthless.

Cycloptichorn

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Killings of Palestinian children

The majority of Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories when members of the IDF responded to demonstrations and stone throwing incidents with unlawful and excessive use of lethal force. Eighty Palestinian children were killed by the IDF in the first three months of the intifada alone.

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Killings of Palestinian children

The majority of Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories when members of the IDF responded to demonstrations and stone throwing incidents with unlawful and excessive use of lethal force. Eighty Palestinian children were killed by the IDF in the first three months of the intifada alone.

People like Advocate doesn't understand the hopelessness of the Paletinians, and why they resort to suicide bombings. Their children are killed, and many parents can't just watch the injustice. If Advocate doesn't understand this, he's more of a bigot than most on a2k.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Killings of Palestinian children

The majority of Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories when members of the IDF responded to demonstrations and stone throwing incidents with unlawful and excessive use of lethal force. Eighty Palestinian children were killed by the IDF in the first three months of the intifada alone.

People like Advocate doesn't understand the hopelessness of the Paletinians, and why they resort to suicide bombings. Their children are killed, and many parents can't just watch the injustice. If Advocate doesn't understand this, he's more of a bigot than most on a2k.

C.I., can you explain what an "intifada" is, what it is for and who started it?

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CI, Blue, and George, as I recall, say that Israel should open its borders to virtually all Pals. Since this would destroy Israel, I must assume that they favor the destruction of Israel. Am I correct?

The Pal kids to whom CI refers often have mustaces and beards, and some have guns.

Here is a video showing the latest suicide bomber who targeted civilians. The leader of Hamas applauded the attack.

http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?pmmsid=1829074

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Advocate,

Do you deny that Israeli violence leads to more violence? You decry the fact that noone here will say something bad about Palestinian violence; I did, and am waiting for you to say something bad about Israeli violence.

Cycloptichorn

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Israel's violence is in the form of needed retaliation, and is therefore justified. I guess it sometimes provokes more violence from the Pals, but this is unavoidable. When Israel holds back on retaliation, it fails to stop Pal attacks. I believe you know this to be the truth.

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Advocate wrote:

Israel's violence is in the form of needed retaliation, and is therefore justified. I guess it sometimes provokes more violence from the Pals, but this is unavoidable. When Israel holds back on retaliation, it fails to stop Pal attacks. I believe you know this to be the truth.

You believe wrong, then, because I know no such thing to be the truth. Israel's violence is not justified. There is no such thing as 'needed retaliation.' Tell me, why is it needed? Explain clearly how it leads to less violence for Israel.

Without breaking the cycle of violence, Israel will never know peace. I don't want that, and I know that you don't want that.

Without resorting to trite 'can't we all get along?' speeches, I just can't see why Israel cannot agree to an independent and united Palestine - with water and shipping rights - and end this bloody mess. I suspect that it is because some of the more radical Israelis won't stop until Palestine simply doesn't exist any longer, the exact same way the Pals' have radicals who won't stop.

Cycloptichorn

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Israel has to retaliate in the hope that the pain inflicted will discourage further attacks on it. Sometimes, one must retaliate to get revenge.

There is a negotiating rule that you never give anything away without getting something in return. Here, should Israel makes concessions without getting something in return, the Pals will keep making demands without any offer of security or recognition in return.

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Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

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