8 months of marriage, and we are scheduled for counselling

Oh no! That's happened to me too ... so now I copy/paste the response into notepad b4 I hit the submit key. Those critical errors are a killer Wink

C&P saves a sh*tload of hassle LOL

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ok - wil - keep - this - super - short

first -- how are you doing???

second -- is it possible that husb is immobolized with fear? mine confessed that when we were dating it was so easy to energetically express himself, since it was all low risk. now that we are married and i am unhappy, he is always gripped with fear about rocking the boat unwittingly, and causing me more grief. so he does nothing.

is def a point to stop and consider on my part...

third -- I statements go something like this -- I am feel hurt right now that you have not acknowledged the fact that I am sad.
active listening would involve him repeating what you say, like -- Jazz, i hear you say that you would like for me to ask you more questions when we are together. this forces him to acknowledge and engage.

fourth -- therapy is def helping, thus far. lots more to get through, but it forces him to spend an hour and a half thinking abt the marriage, us, our relationship. seems like he needs it more than me....may be the same case for your husb.

fifth -- please let me know how you are doing. and thanks SO MUCH for the info. passed it along to hubs.

sixth -- going on walks together salvaged a friend's marriage. they started walking as per an exercise regimen, but it salvaged their failing marriage since they were forced to talk!

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heartofthesun wrote:

first -- how are you doing???
second -- is it possible that husb is immobolized with fear?
third -- .... this forces him to acknowledge and engage.
fourth -- ... seems like he needs it more than me....may be the same case for your husb.
fifth -- please let me know how you are doing. and thanks SO MUCH for the info. passed it along to hubs.
sixth -- going on walks together salvaged a friend's marriage.

Hey hofts,

Your info is so helpful, thank you so much Smile

I'm having a bad day so I'll keep this short.

1st: sad. depressed. frustrated. feeling like a failure - a veritable cornucopia of self pity. boo hoo. resentful. annoyed. tired. alone.

2nd: good point. But I want him to face his fear - if that's what is holding him back. Sadly I cant make him do something he doesn't want to do.

3rd: love the "I" statements but husb considers "I" statements selfish ... "you you you it's all about you - where is the 'us'" kind of thing. I've tried it b4. Will experiment with active listening.

4th: or maybe my husb arrogantly feels he doesnt need it at all. That's my guess.

5th: glad the info was useful Smile

6th: we tried to go on walks & I'd use the time to bring up stuff but he'd rarely talk back in detail. My words went into a black hole & I ended up talking to myself.

There are only 4 corners in a room, right? Today, I feel backed into every one of them. Bah.

-- jazz

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ok, if that is the case (ie pt 1), then let's keep chatting...get atleast some of it off your chest and make your way back to CENTRE stage!
i am here, and waiting to hear back from you...

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jazzieB123 wrote:

1st: sad. depressed. frustrated. feeling like a failure - a veritable cornucopia of self pity. boo hoo. resentful. annoyed. tired. alone.

There are only 4 corners in a room, right? Today, I feel backed into every one of them. Bah.

-- jazz

you are such a vibrant, intelligent, engaging, wise, witty, attractive person! it's painful to see you in such anguish.

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Hey presh,

Thanx for your support & your ears. Life just sucks at the mo. This depression is kicking my ass today & I'm letting it. Some days I get sick of fighting back. It sucks the life out of me.

See, what gets me down is that I never used to be afraid of anything. I was the gutsiest shiniest toy in the store who could do anything. Now ... I'm anxious. Nervous. Consumed by fear & uncertainty...looking over my shoulder fearful of what's next. What curve ball will blind side me? What to do? How to overcome it? I'm hypervigilantly on the lookout for the next surprise.

My husb seems to potter along from day to day quite happily. I, on the other hand, am a freaked out crying basketcase wondering what the hell I am doing here. Nothing has worked out how I hoped. I've always been in charge of my own destiny and as soon as another person enters the fray, everything turns mushy. This is the situation I'm in now. I feel as tho my husb and I are on the same river, but in different canoes. Sigh.

-- jazz

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hey hon--
depression, is a good thing. it forces you to introspect, and that is what your body is craving right now. let it wash over you, let it take you to a coffee/tea shop with a notebook in hand, so you can sip and write and weep, if you have to. never fight depression. IMO it is the time when your core speaks most directly to you. the answer will come.
kahlil gibran said it pretty eloquently, in the Prophet, that sadness gouges out your soul, so you may receive even more happiness. the deeper the pain, the greater the joy you set yourself up to receive.

and, btw you are still the shiniest, brightest toy in the store! that hasn't changed. if you were the one to shape destiny, perhaps it is your time to do so, again. perhaps you need to take the reigns again, and direct this marriage on behalf of both of you.

you have not mentioned if you and hubs have had a conversation recently...call him up, go to his office and let him know how particularly sad you feel today.
NOTHING is more precious than the relationships we form with each other!

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Hey hofts,

Thanx for your wise words. I remember how much I enojoyed The Prophet. If I could ring my husb & tell him how sad I was, I would, but I daren't. It would only make him feel sad & powerless. He has no idea what to do. So I keep it to myself, pour it out in my journal, wah wah ...

My life is so different to how it was. I try not to think about how happy I was ... but ...

I feel as tho I was driving fast in a lovely car on a warm sunny day on an open highway, singing along to the radio & loving it. Then I crashed head-first into a brick wall. I didn't slow down, or brake, or slide into it. I just crashed. Suddenly, it's night time & I've woken up huddled in the cold, silent wreckage going "what just happened?"

In my minds eye, my arms & legs don't work properly & I can't think straight. Even tho I'd like to get out of the wreck, I feel like I don't know how to. It is the strangest sensation. Ugh, today is just one of those days Sad

-- all jazzed out

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i have been locked out of the system ALL evening...finally got through...from the home wireless..

how are you, jazzmonster?
you are prob in bed by now...but i hopeful you were able to slay a few dragons today..
i'm with you, i hear you, and i hope tomorrow's going to bring some clarity...

please come back and update tomorrow..will be keeping an eye out for ya!

i don't cope with stuff at my end, very well at all. i just try to be an escapist, until i cannot any more...

sleep well, and talk with you tomorrow.

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heartofthesun wrote:

i don't cope with stuff at my end, very well at all. i just try to be an escapist, until i cannot any more...

hey hofts,

Thanx so much for yr lovely note. I think you're dealing with the mc thing so positively and that doing it with yr husb is a good thing. How do you cope when things get really bad? What are your escape routes when it gets too much??

I always used to have a way out, a backdoor, an escape hatch. Now, they're nailed shut. ARGH. It would help if I didn't hate the town we lived in so much, but it's killing me from the inside out. I'm looking for work in other cities in the new year, so hopefully there's one escape hatch to fling back open. Sometimes I get so bored I drive around looking for a traffic jam to get stuck in so I can pass an hour or 2. It's freakin tragic.

I've looked - but can't find "my people" here if you kno what I mean. No clan, no tribe.

How are you doing???

-- jazzola

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jazzieB123 wrote:

I always used to have a way out, a backdoor, an escape hatch. Now, they're nailed shut. ARGH. It would help if I didn't hate the town we lived in so much, but it's killing me from the inside out. I'm looking for work in other cities in the new year, so hopefully there's one escape hatch to fling back open. Sometimes I get so bored I drive around looking for a traffic jam to get stuck in so I can pass an hour or 2. It's freakin tragic.

I've looked - but can't find "my people" here if you kno what I mean. No clan, no tribe.

How are you doing???

-- jazzola

hi, hunny!
a small boring town will kill you inside out, faster than an unresponsive husband! Smile

but, Jazz --be thankful that you got california. are you close to any of the bigger cities? if so, find a group -- writing, theatre, dance, book club, networking, volunteer group, activist group -- to join. you may not find your hollaback girls, but it will get you involved in something.

so much of our feelings of desperation, anguish and worthlessness comes from knowing that we have so much to offer, and it's all going to waste. once you start doing what you have always been so good at, life will get peachier!

i have already set the ball rolling in the direction of finding venues where my services are not just required, but really valued. now, when the going gets tough at home, i know that it is only ONE part of my life that is looking dismal. and this one part, i can try to sort out. it does not feel like i have lost everything....

and, believe me, a few months ago -- it felt like my back was perpetually against the wall! i was pressed up against it. i know EXACTLY what you are talking abt. i used to just get out of the house and walk down the street...but it doesn't matter, because it feels like there is no way to escape this. this one time, i packed my stuff and was ready to leave..and then realised that i had NO PLACE to go to!! that's when i hit rock bottom..or atleast it felt like it.

these days, some part of me, is constantly checking to make sure that the emergency Exits are clearly marked at all times!

it's sooooooooooo hard, to keep at this, because it is not the solution! i don't know what to do. sometimes i feel like we will just have to claw ourselves out of this hole...there is a way to get out..and we will find it! you in? good. Smile

)

let me know when you hear back from the places you sent your resume out to....

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Hey luv - am on way out the door so am dropping in quickly to say thanks and hi and ta for your encouragement. I'll post a bigger reply later as I want to think about what you wrote. The dumbest part is that so much of my crap could be sorted if my husb would agree to mc. So much of my stuff is bottlenecking b/c it's to do with our relationship. I feel alienated, like I'm being pushed toward another space that I don't fit in but I will find a home inside of if I have to. Does that make sense? It's not supposed to be this damned hard, I'm sure.

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jazzieB123 wrote:

Hey luv - am on way out the door so am dropping in quickly to say thanks and hi and ta for your encouragement. I'll post a bigger reply later as I want to think about what you wrote. The dumbest part is that so much of my crap could be sorted if my husb would agree to mc.

well make him do it! i am counting down the days until you do...
my bottle of bubbly's chilling...

jazzieB123 wrote:

So much of my stuff is bottlenecking b/c it's to do with our relationship. I feel alienated, like I'm being pushed toward another space that I don't fit in but I will find a home inside of if I have to. Does that make sense?

oh, i totally get you. it's b/c you are adaptable and can actually buy into this new space if you have to.

this is where i see the situation at (yours and mine) -- we are both in committed relationships that need to be readjusted some. problem is only one part of the twosome acknowledges and sees the need for this adjustment. we've identified it and in your case, you even know what the solution is. now it's a question of bringing the mountain to mohammed......

jazzieB123 wrote:

It's not supposed to be this damned hard, I'm sure.

i know. i know...

it's a struggle every day.
7pm right now...and we are still at work (his). i have tickets to a play i told him i wanted to see. he asked me to get tickets for him as well. but, i have serious doubts that he is going to be able to tear himself from work long enough to come with me. so, in a few moments, i am going to pack my stuff and go watch the show.
balls to him!

and, the worst part is, he is going to meet me at home later tonight and be all cheery - like, did you enjoy it?! arrrgh! off with your head!

have a good evening..catch you later.

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When Personality and Culture Clash: The
Psychological Distress of Allocentrics in an
Individualist Culture and Idiocentrics in a
Collectivist Culture
CATHERINE L. CALDWELL-HARRIS
Boston University
AYSE AYÇIÇEGI
Istanbul University

Because humans need both autonomy and interdependence,
persons with either an extreme collectivist orientation (allocentrics) or
extreme individualist values (idiocentrics) may be at risk for possession of
some features of psychopathology. Is an extreme personality style a risk
factor primarily when it conflicts with the values of the surrounding
society? Individualism-collectivism scenarios and a battery of clinical and
personality scales were administered to nonclinical samples of college
students in Boston and Istanbul. For students residing in a highly individualistic
society (Boston), collectivism scores were positively correlated with
depression, social anxiety, obsessive-compulsive disorder and dependent
personality. Individualism scores, particularly horizontal individualism,
were negatively correlated with these same scales. A different pattern was
obtained for students residing in a collectivist culture, Istanbul. Here
individualism (and especially horizontal individualism) was positively
correlated with scales for paranoid, schizoid, narcissistic, borderline
and antisocial personality disorder. Collectivism (particularly vertical
collectivism) was associated with low report of symptoms on these scales.
These results indicate that having a personality style which conflicts with
the values of society is associated with psychiatric symptoms. Having an
orientation inconsistent with societal values may thus be a risk factor for
poor mental health.

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heartofthesun wrote:

Because humans need both autonomy and interdependence, persons with either an extreme collectivist orientation (allocentrics) or extreme individualist values (idiocentrics) may be at risk for possession of some features of psychopathology.
Having an orientation inconsistent with societal values may thus be a risk factor for poor mental health.

SMOKIN' INFO. Thanx, hofts - this makes so much sense. I think my husb & I are polar opposites (does that make us psychopaths??? lol).

Even tho my individualism fits in with the US, per se, it doesnt fit in our marriage, nor with husb's family culture. I feel like a freak & husb - being very much the collectivist - makes me feel smothered. Don't get me wrong - I'm collaborative & conciliatory (usually...) but his version of marriage feels to me to be more or less co-dependent. eww.

Altho I wonder if it's possible for someone to be of a collectivist nature but be non communicative? I'd have thought that individualists would be more inclined to be uncommunicative (like your husb for eg) - or like me - yet I love to verbally problem solve. Perhpas the verbal prob solving is a genetic female thing, irrespective of what personality type they are.

As for the mc thing - I'll wait for a couple more wks b4 raising it again - I want to wait til I'm earning enough dosh to pay for it myself Wink

It will remove the issue of us apparently not being able to afford it (what BS) .. still I'm sure he'll see it as an ambush. Ultimately, the choice is still his but if I remove the key constraints, then we can get to the nuts & bolts of why he really doesnt want to go. Know what I mean.

btw, I cranked up my old TISM cd today, full volume. That'll scare the elderly Stepford neighbours Wink

-- jazzo

ps: how was the play? Did you go solo?

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pretty awesome, eh? i was totally trying to get material for a proposal, and i find my way to this article...talk abt cosmic coincidences...

jazzieB123 wrote:

Even tho my individualism fits in with the US, per se, it doesnt fit in our marriage, nor with husb's family culture. I feel like a freak & husb - being very much the collectivist - makes me feel smothered. Don't get me wrong - I'm collaborative & conciliatory (usually...) but his version of marriage feels to me to be more or less co-dependent. eww.

Altho I wonder if it's possible for someone to be of a collectivist nature but be non communicative? I'd have thought that individualists would be more inclined to be uncommunicative (like your husb for eg) - or like me - yet I love to verbally problem solve. Perhpas the verbal prob solving is a genetic female thing, irrespective of what personality type they are.

As for the mc thing - I'll wait for a couple more wks b4 raising it again - I want to wait til I'm earning enough dosh to pay for it myself It will remove the issue of us apparently not being able to afford it (what BS) .. still I'm sure he'll see it as an ambush. Ultimately, the choice is still his but if I remove the key constraints, then we can get to the nuts & bolts of why he really doesnt want to go. Know what I mean.

seems to me like it IS a cultural thing that prevents him from skipping down the road to counselling with wife in tow. nothing to do with him not caring enough to do so...
i wonder if it is an affront to his adulthood or husbandhood, to be discussing his marriage with a paid professional in sensible shoes.
it is hilarious, how i very dramatically told my husband that the day we went in for counselling, we would be doing so in preparation for a divorce.
(hah! i run my mouth pretty ragged most of the time). it was not all sh*t talk, however, because somewhere deep down i may be culturally conditioned to reject professional therapy. maybe if you go back to our collectivist roots, your husband and i feel like it may be too self-indulgent to seek relationship therapy, when codependence and faith in the stability of group dynamics is enough to sustain and nourish a marriage?

i wonder if he is culturally conditioned to believe that therapy is for crazies and counselling is something you serioualy seek out, only when you have failed?

we are getting started on trying to work out these differences between us -- and like the trusty counsellor said - working on building that new culture between us.

in the mean time, being a collectivist, socialist, communist in an individualistic society is going to drive me cuckoo...my husband has no clue as to what's in store for him Smile

jazzieB123 wrote:

btw, I cranked up my old TISM cd today, full volume. That'll scare the elderly Stepford neighbours

-- jazzo

ps: how was the play? Did you go solo?

scaring stepford neighbours - young or old - is a good hobby to develop! i can only imagine how they must tut-tut about that wild, foreign wife who lives on their block. tee hee

he made it to the play. and it was experimental, feminist, lesbian and set to shakespearian verse..and he gets some serious brownie points for not only attempting to enjoy it, but actually discussing it with me after the show!

mc is working for us...atleast so far. i am waiting for you to tell me that you guys have reached an agreement with regards to it.

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[quote="heartofthesun"] ...he insisted that i quit my life's work, in order to sort of stay home relax, find myself and help him with his business, i have sucked away the last bit of my earnings and there is no financial plan that includes the 2 of us. [/quote]

My honest opinion?
Find yourself another job.
You are not just half of this relationship, you are still an individual.
If you are unhappy with not having your own money, then go out and get it.

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Bohne wrote:

[quote="heartofthesun"] ...he insisted that i quit my life's work, in order to sort of stay home relax, find myself and help him with his business, i have sucked away the last bit of my earnings and there is no financial plan that includes the 2 of us.

My honest opinion?
Find yourself another job.
You are not just half of this relationship, you are still an individual.
If you are unhappy with not having your own money, then go out and get it.[/color][/quote]

well, he could use my help. and, IMO in a partnership, you sorta pitch in and help whenever it is required. my understanding of this sort of arrangement is, that it is reciprocal. however, what i have started to understand that it isn't with my husband. so, while i spend hours and nights working on his company's needs, the fact that i have a phd in something entirely different does not worry him would not abandon a friend/husband in need, i do not see my husband reciprocating and pitching in to help/support me with my career.

getting out and getting money is much easier said than done, in my particular case.

right now, i am charging him for the time that i spend working at his company. atleast on paper, he owes me. and, that is a step up, until i get myself a grant.

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heartofthesun wrote:

...my understanding of this sort of arrangement is, that it is reciprocal. however, what i have started to understand that it isn't with my husband.
...i do not see my husband reciprocating and pitching in to help/support me with my career.
...getting out and getting money is much easier said than done, in my particular case.
...i am charging him for the time that i spend working at his company. atleast on paper, he owes me. and, that is a step up, until i get myself a grant.

Hey you

I see this situation v clearly, but humour me for a sec in my devil's advocate costume:

Are you sure that your husb's position is that he would not reciproate if asked? That he would not at least try to make the effort? Do you have evidence that backs up your feeling that he would not reciprocate? I'm not defending him just looking for proof of your belief - kno what I mean.

I'm gonna speculate that yr career is probably a bit like mine - that is, creatively based & one which others cannot really help you find new jobs or develop new horizons. Whatever gigs you get are most likely self-generated & based on who you know more than what you know. That means the more time you spend working on his business, the longer you're out of your own world. Could this be problematic for you in the long run, in terms of missing out on valuable opportunities?

Perhaps he feels his business/career takes priority right now, b/c HE is earning the money, putting food on the table ..? Your time is just as valuabe so invoicing him is a great idea. Whether you actually get paid for your input is to be determined but at least it ensures you're both aware of how many hours you're currently working for free.

Hmmm, would grant money go toward your career/ambitions or his??

As for getting out & getting some money - is there any kind of part time Christmas overflow work you could do just to get some ready cash? Finding a well paying jobbie this side of the new year is virtually impossible but there's often heaps of Christmas McJobs around this time of year. They're about for 4-5 wks, then gone. The trick would be to pick a company you quite like (Borders for eg) & not to take it seriously or it'll eat you alive. Waddyareckon?

-- jazzola

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heartofthesun wrote:

...i wonder if it is an affront to his adulthood or husbandhood, to be discussing his marriage with a paid professional.
...i am waiting for you to tell me that you guys have reached an agreement with regards to it.

Hey - thanx for your encouragement but it might be a bit too late for us.

Perhaps it is an affront to his manood but Im getting past the point of caring anymore why he can't or won't go. Am I giving up? Yes. I don't have any hope that we'll get to mc. I'm in v short supply of hope for any kind of future.

I tried to tell him about my dark thoughts. It resulted in him shouting at me that that was what my therapy was for (god forbid that the monkeys on my back should spill out into our polite suburban life) & bitching about not getting any sleep. Lovely.

It was the 4th time I'd tried to bring up things that have been troubling me, and every other time he's just fobbed me off. So this last chat, I was determined not to be fobbed off (b/c he was tired) but his angry outburst just sent me running. It T-boned the conversation & hastened my resolve not to confide in him again. About anything.

Shame, really as that's what I thought intimate partnerships were about. I'm confused by his behaviour and it has made me more determined than ever to get a job anywhere away from here. I shouldnt be afraid to tell my husband anything, but now I am. He doesnt get it and he doesnt get me. Whatsmore his reaction shows me that he doesnt even want to learn.

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8 months of marriage, and we are scheduled for counselling

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