8 months of marriage, and we are scheduled for counselling

heartofthesun wrote:

...he seems like he just does not care.
...i do not know if he cares.
...how are you doing? what's the latest at your end?

Hey hofts,

Uh-oh. I hope you're wrong about the non-caring thing. Let's hope it's your perception - not fact. It sounds as tho he's disengaged himself from the whole process as a coping mechanism. You're plugged in, he's plugged out ... which gives off the impression that he doesn't care ... and until you ask him whether he cares or not, you've got nothing else to go by except what you see. Perhaps you can get the truth out of him at today's session?

Me? Oh, I cried all w/end b/c I realised I don't belong here, have no idea what I'm doing & feel like I've failed at everything I set out to do in my time here. Blah. It was all very self-indulgent. I'm still waiting for my husb's answer re: reconsidering mc. My hunch is he'll say no (again). I dread to press him but I can't wait for his answer forever. He's acting as tho nothing's wrong whereas I'm churning. Argh.

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jazzieB123 wrote:

Me? Oh, I cried all w/end b/c I realised I don't belong here, have no idea what I'm doing & feel like I've failed at everything I set out to do in my time here. Blah. It was all very self-indulgent.

ah, yes-- i know those feelings so well. doesn't it just wrench your insides out when you think of where all this has led? well, first of all, what we are suffereing from is a deep depression. and, depression aint such a bad thing. it makes you gouge out your soul for answers. and, in the end, i think we find them. i am not at that end, i speak of.
however, i am sure you know that
you have NOT failed at everything,
you DO have an idea of what needs to be done, and
you belong WHEREVER you park your butt on earth.

this isn't a rah-rah you're the best kind of rant, but fortunate reality.

what were all the things that you were when you were dating your husband? list them down, and fire them back up in your life.

so, why don't you start by telling me who you were before you were married?

jazzieB123 wrote:

I'm still waiting for my husb's answer re: reconsidering mc. My hunch is he'll say no (again). I dread to press him but I can't wait for his answer forever. He's acting as tho nothing's wrong whereas I'm churning. Argh.

jazzie, easier said than done, but why don't you take him out for a (mandatory) glass of wine this evening, and ask him if he knows how much you love him, and how sad you are? are you going to give this a shot, while i meet mine over therapy this evening?

we could compare notes later tonight?

(are we in a nightmare or what?!)

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heartofthesun wrote:

...so, why don't you start by telling me who you were before you were married?
...why don't you take him out for a (mandatory) glass of wine this evening, and ask him if he knows how much you love him, and how sad you are? are you going to give this a shot, while i meet mine over therapy this evening?
...we could compare notes later tonight?

LOL, thanks hofts,

Geeze, where to begin? Happy, settled, successful, vibrant ... the list is so long and I am hoping that finding work will help me to replace some of these things I've lost.

Oh - the vino would be a great idea except that he doesn't drink ... and as I'm now on anti-depression meds, I'm not allowed to either. It's all too boring in our house! I'll be here later on tho if you want to vent - would love to hear how your session goes. I'll raise the taboo mc subject with my husb later in the week. I can't bring myself to do it tonight.

Isn't it crap to be frightened of asking a simple question?

Best of luck this evening Smile

hugs,
jazzo

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jazzieB123 wrote:

LOL, thanks hofts,

Geeze, where to begin? Happy, settled, successful, vibrant ... the list is so long and I am hoping that finding work will help me to replace some of these things I've lost.

have you sent your resume out? any bites so far?

jazzieB123 wrote:

Oh - the vino would be a great idea except that he doesn't drink ... and as I'm now on anti-depression meds, I'm not allowed to either. It's all too boring in our house! I'll be here later on tho if you want to vent - would love to hear how your session goes. I'll raise the taboo mc subject with my husb later in the week. I can't bring myself to do it tonight.

i will let you know what happens. i am nervous and anxious about the visit. if things break down irreversibly, i may find myself in over my head in crap!

jazzieB123 wrote:

Isn't it crap to be frightened of asking a simple question?

it is, if you have decided that his refusal will trigger the end of your marriage. this does not have to be the case. his refusal is not set in stone, and your marriage does not hinge upon his answer.

ok, while you wait for the end of the week to ask him, i want you to describe to me,
4 of your most favourite aussie authors;
your highschool crush;
your previous job;
your best friends from back home.

let's get the ball rolling and recreate "home" for you...
Smile

jazzieB123 wrote:

Best of luck this evening

hugs,
jazzo

thanks. talk to you later.

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Heartofthesun, did it ever occur to you that your husband fell in love with you because you are not like his mother, your marriage won't be like his parents? He probably has no idea you feel, think, this way. Sometimes, though, these American guys marry the bright, twinkling diamond that you are and they begin treating her as if she's just like their mother!

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sunlover wrote:

Heartofthesun, did it ever occur to you that your husband fell in love with you because you are not like his mother, your marriage won't be like his parents? He probably has no idea you feel, think, this way. Sometimes, though, these American guys marry the bright, twinkling diamond that you are and they begin treating her as if she's just like their mother!

hey sunlover - his parent's marriage was ugly and ended in divorce.
i asked him once what came to his mind when he thought of the word 'marriage' - he said, he saw 2 tall figures standing side by side, facing away from him. this was very different from what came to my mind, when i hear the word, marriage. i see, quite simply a mesh, a network.
this may be the fundamental difference in our notion of what we have gotten ourselves into.
IMO the 2 figures are his mom and dad, angry and isolated from each other, with their backs turned against their kids. my husband's only model for marriage.

i think, without meaning to, he has resorted to his parent's brand of marriage with us. our marriage is isolated, disconnected and cold. i agree with your insight, that he must have married me because he felt that our relationship would be nothing like his parent's. but sadly, in 8 short months, we are there. where his parents were.

only difference is, that i will go crazy before i let my spirit and passion leach away. i have seen how powerful a loving relationship can be between 2 people (my parents). how powerful, passionate and creative.
i would rather be single than be part of a marriage of convenience.

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and the worst part of it all, is that i am starting to believe that he and i are not in agreement over core, fundamental values. like, jazzie, i feel like i have been had -- because we were making sweet music when we were courting. this not being my first love, i don't think that i was blinded by emotion during the courtship stage and jumped into something with my eyes closed. i was not looking for marriage, and yet i found someone who was so incredibly compatible and wonderful, that i could not say no to his proposal.
he went from being my touchstone, to someone who can coolly watch me anguish over our marriage, and not do anything to help.

does he know how i feel? yes he does. and he does not care.

what now? what happens from here?

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Hey hofts,

Am popping in v quickly to see how you are doing. Have you both been to your session yet?? Thanks for your questions - I'll answer them a bit later on tonight b/c I have to race off now but will be back later.

hugs
jazz

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Hey hofts,

I'm back .. later has arrived Wink

How was your shesh? I so hope you are okay.

My husb & I unexpectedly had a big talk which went quite well. Alot of our issues are to do with communication and control it seems. It turns out he thinks I try to 'control' him in certain situations which blew me away. I had no idea he viewed our convos or my actions in such a way. He doesn't realise that he does many things which also come under the control realm. Things I find baffling, confusing, frustrating ... but enough about me.

How are you??

jazzie

ps:

4 authors: How about 2? Peter Singer (What Is Good?) & Colin Thiel (I Can Jump Puddles).

high school crush: my brother's bestie who wanted to be an airline pilot, but ended up being a pig farmer. I liked him b/c he got suspended from his private boarding school for smoking in the toilets. Rebel rouser!

my best friends: wow, there are many - they're ecclectic, funny, clever and a bit mad. No exceptions. 2 of them are getting married in Mar 07 & I want to go home for that. They're scattered the world over - kind of like an international gypsy club from all walks of life.

last job: too many to count LOL

fave lollies: twisties, redskins, allens red frogs.

fave wine: st hallets GSM.

fave food: at the mo, crumpets with honey. Milo (is that a food?)

- and you?

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Heart, is it possible to separate from this man while you both come together for counseling? Oh, you did say you were pregnant?

Your marriage could very well be worth saving but he needs counseling to understand his life is becoming a pattern. Could get difficult to love his cold stoney back. Maybe he's just scared out of his gord. Might try this: Don't respond to him, live your own life the best you can, find a life outside the home. Sometimes that helps this sort of person to begin emoting a little themselves. Otherwise, he is just going to watch you dance around -- and, that can be quite entertaining to some people, maddening to the ones who love them. He's pulling your strings.

Wishing you well, Jazzie too.

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Heartofthesun,

Question, did your parents have a fifties/sixties type of marriage? Mine did and the idea of being "In Love" is completely different now than it was back then. People lived with their parents until they got married and they had different views on careers and children. Today most of us live on our own before we get married and have to learn to co-exsist with someone after being self-sufficient for so long. It is the couples who can not admit they need help who are in real trouble.

My husband and I had seen a therapist during our first couple years of marriage and it helped quite a bit. Just to have thoughts put on the table in front of someone who can be objective makes the whole situation less daunting.

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Hey heart,

I hope you are ok. I found this site on the webbage today & some of the info on it is pretty good & half-way relevant Smile

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5055_qa.html

How are you getting on ??

jazzie

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sunlover wrote:

Heart, is it possible to separate from this man while you both come together for counseling? Oh, you did say you were pregnant?

Your marriage could very well be worth saving but he needs counseling to understand his life is becoming a pattern. Could get difficult to love his cold stoney back. Maybe he's just scared out of his gord. Might try this: Don't respond to him, live your own life the best you can, find a life outside the home. Sometimes that helps this sort of person to begin emoting a little themselves. Otherwise, he is just going to watch you dance around -- and, that can be quite entertaining to some people, maddening to the ones who love them. He's pulling your strings.

Wishing you well, Jazzie too.

hey sun-- i did get pregnant, and miscarried at 7 weeks. i am in the clear now. have begun expanding my horizons outside of the home, and towards things i have always enjoyed. makes me feel great. doesn't seem to change the status quo between us (sadly) and he wants to accompany me through everything i do...i think it may be a control issue....dunno.
ugh!

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catwoman29 wrote:

Heartofthesun,

Question, did your parents have a fifties/sixties type of marriage? Mine did and the idea of being "In Love" is completely different now than it was back then. People lived with their parents until they got married and they had different views on careers and children. Today most of us live on our own before we get married and have to learn to co-exsist with someone after being self-sufficient for so long. It is the couples who can not admit they need help who are in real trouble.

My husband and I had seen a therapist during our first couple years of marriage and it helped quite a bit. Just to have thoughts put on the table in front of someone who can be objective makes the whole situation less daunting.

ay-yi-yi -- you are absolutely right! never even stopped to consider that..goes to show how dense i am about these things. yes, my parents did get married in the '60s. met when she was 16, she was 20 -- got married 8 years later, as soon as they were done with their master's degrees. i married at 31, having already gotten my grad degree a good number of years prior. my husbands 40..so yep, you are right. times have changed.

but somewhere deep down, i wonder if the innocence and hope for a good healthy marriage have already been dashed given that things have unravelled 8 months into our marriage. 8 months!

did you marriage get back on track, thanks to therapy? or, have the deeper problems persisted? as i go down this path, i am hungry for wisdom.

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jazzter --
10 minutes until i leave for our second session with the therapist.
ok, so she is a counsellor, and was careful to explain the difference to us, our first session. turns out (all news to me) that one difference between a counsellor and a therapist is that the former approaches a couple from a "group/community/couple" perspective, whereas a therapist looks at the situation from an "individual" perspective. makes sense?
i was happy that we had unwittingly chosen counselling over therapy.

i cannot give you the run down...coz i have to leave right now...but i will fill you in, as soon as i get a moment alone, after we are done with our session tonight. (husband suspicious of online chat...and, i cannot lie if he inquires abt what i am up to...)

brb...

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Hey hofts,

No worries, just glad you are ok Smile

If he asks, yes, be honest - but don't feel obliged to update here if it's going to make him snarky ok? Having said that, it is important that you find time for you to do the things you want to do.

Am thrilled you've been doing some things you love - it all helps in trying to re-establish who you are in a new place. It's like drawing a picutre of a person - you have to start with the outline before doing the colouring in LOL

Hang in there. Good luck with your sessions and pop back when you can Smile

hugs,
jazz

ps: I'm really impressed your husb went thru with the counselling, even tho he is probably terrified. It shows he's willing to try to get things on an even keel and that can only be a good thing.

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jazz -- so, here goes the first session -- i let him go first, and was surprised with how much came out, in a long and steady stream. i think it surprised him, too. was really glad to see that he was getting stuff off his chest, but at the same time, i was felt betrayed and annoyed because i felt like once he was on a roll, he started sort of misrepresenting the situation and making me looking like a very simple stereotype of a demanding wife. he is very even-keeled, so none of it was directed as an attack, but by making himself look like a martyr to the counsellor, i looked like a witch.
anyway, i was not shy to interject and recount the specific incidents and what they represented to me..
he said that he was having the toughest time to get me to say that he was the love of my life, and given that i was an honest person, my refusal to answer made him wonder about my feelings for him. i said that he was absolutely NOT the love of my life, at this very instance, and for months leading up to this moment. the counsellor started ..hehehe..not to make light of it, but it is true - i am in a angry, and deeply hurt place. is he still the love of my life? not in this avatar, he is not!

we were tasked with using "I statements" if we argued again.

we did, a few days later, and the "I statements" did definitely come in handy and prevent the situation from completely getting outta control.

we went back for seconds yesterday...

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ok, second session with trusty counsellor -- and we CRACKED IT!

the counsellor did -- not us. but she hit the nail on the proverbial head! she had asked us to answer 3 questions as HW:
1- what does marriage look to you? expectations.
2- what expectations do you have of yourself in the marriage?
3- what expectation do you have of your spouse?

we discussed question and answers to 1, and she said that a large part of our problem was -- CULTURAL!!!!

totally agree with the counz.

my culture/personality heavily leans towards collectivism.
his, towards individualism.

BIG problem. huge chasm to cover. but the words of my trusty, young, bright and intelligent counsellor is that we have to work towards building a NEW culture within our marriage -- one that melds the 2 cultures together.

huge breakthrough.

husband almost dozed off for a few minutes, during the session -- and i had to wake him up and scold him. but we laughed quite a bit through the session, when we left, he grabbed my hand and wouldn't let go - i suspect because i said that one of my expectations of marriage was ever-present physical contact and affection!

i asked him why he dozed off in the session, and was he bored -- and he said that he was tired, but also the stuff was pretty profound, and he was trying to process. Yeah, right! Smile

)

but our HW is to work on the next step of I statements -- which is to actively listen. she said that our communication problem was a function of of our differing culturals, gender and personalities.

let me know if any of this makes sense to you, and is applicable.

there is so much to go into, but i am really curious to know what is happening with you. you had mentioned talking with hubby abt counselling this week?

please let me know what is up with you....

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Hey hofts,

Great update, big breakthru! Nice one - thankyou!! OMG indiv vs collectism is 1 of our major differences. I had never heard of it b4 but it makes sooo much sense.

Cut & paste this link if you can ...

http://road.uww.edu/road/addaeh/Organizational%20Behavior/cht17.ppt#288,12,Hofstede's Model of National Culture

I learned that:

Individ vs Collectivism:
I'm individ.
Husb is collective.

Acheivement vs Nurturing orientation.
I'm acheivement.
He's nurturing.

Uncertainty Avoidance:
I'm high.
He's low.

Long term vs short term orientation:
We're both short term.

---
Wow.

Love the idea of the two of you melding cultures to make a NEW culture for your relationship. It is a new space that you both own b/c both have input into it & that sounds mega healthy. Fair, equal.

Shame you were painted as the witch but it's good he felt ok about expressing himself. Great you stuck up for yourself too LOL Wink

Does your husb understand why you are so angry???

Um. Why is it so important to him that he is the love of your life? Does he understand that sometimes it takes time? It's not a light switch you can flick on! I mean, you MARRIED him. Choosing to spend the rest of your life with him is not as important to him as being the love of your life? Or does he view marriage as a disposable arrangement that can be discarded if it doesn't work out ... whereas being the "love of one's life" stays in someone's heart forever??

As for me, I'm struggling with honesty, openness & how to communicate. lol. Im still waiting for an answer re "reconsidering mc". Sigh. How long to wait ...

My HW is to reverse the Q&A in our convos. I find my husb aloof, evasive. He doesnt ask me many questions about anything so I assume he's not interested. So I end up asking him questions which just makes me feel like an interrogator .. and he answers questions incompletely with the bare minimum of info which drives me mad. I dont understand what he's talking about most of the time, but I find that's the case with a lot of ppl here. I'm not good with obtuse flowerly language.

So, my HW is to ask him to ask me questions. I'm hesitatant b/c my hubs already thinks I "control him" when we're talking (but I'm only trying to make conversation) - so this feels like an extension of that. But I just cant stand the hours of silence. Its like living in a vaccuum. Give and take convo is kind of what I'm working on to try to improve communication.

I like the "active listening" idea. We reach dead ends v fast in conversation - my husb is a passive listener who tends not to take the convo anywhere - so if he were a more active listener, perhaps he would feel less "controlled" by me ... oo er. There's an idea! Smile

Thank you so much for giving me things to think about!! It sounds like you are making fab progress & learning a lot about each other which is so good. Smile

When is your next sesh?

- jazzorama

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just wrote you a looooong repsonse...and there was a critical error and i lost my message! argh!!

will write summarized response shortly! %$@#!

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8 months of marriage, and we are scheduled for counselling

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